Seneca no. 8 (And other good "first cameras"?)

[Eric_6578]

Hello all,

I'm looking to move into LF on the cheap (i.e., hoping to find a well-functioning camera for less than $400, maybe even $300). From what I've read here, the oldies (Kodak 2d, B&J, Ansco) are a great way to get started.

While looking for those brands on eBay, I've also stumbled across a "Seneca no. 8". Haven't been able to find much info on it, anywhere. Has anyone used one of these? They are quite small (7x7x4, or something) and light (4 lbs., according to the seller, though that's without a lens board and lens).

Bellows is 16" when fully extended (again, according to the seller). Sounds like the no. 8's movements are fairly limited, which is a drawback because I'm envious of the ability to nix "slanty trees" when photographing in mature woods. ..I plan on doing mostly landscapes for starters.

Info on using the Seneca would be greatly appreciated. Also, general recommendations would be welcome with regards to the pros and cons of the aforementioned oldies-but-goodies. Perhaps there's one or two gems I've overlooked?

Thanks!

[Eric_6578]

Whoops...sorry, I forgot to add that I'm looking for something that is reasonable to carry on a few-mile hike. (Though I understand that none of these will qualify as "light".)

[Donald Brewster]

A Seneca Improved was my first 8x10. I also had a B&J before I finally bought a Deardorff. Both were very fine cameras. The Seneca was indeed very light. Folmer & Schwing (superb), Gundlach Manhattan, Rochester Optical and Century are other quite serviceable LF cameras. For general info onthe Seneca's see http://www.fiberq.com/cam/seneca/sennew.htm and http://www.geocities.com/shioshya/seneca.html

[steve simmons]

The essential movements, IMHO, are front and rear swing and tilt. With these movements you can create rise and fall and shift either front and/or rear.

Many people do not try and correct trees that are not quite vertical. They may not be vertical in real life and our eyes will accept this as being ok. Buildings, however, probably should be vertical unless they are very old and delapidated and in this case I might let them lean as they do in reality.

As about the condition of the bellows and find out what a replacement bellows might cost. Ad this in to the purchase price to see if it is still in your budget. Check places like Mid-West Photo, Quality Camera, Lens and Repro, etc. for comparison shopping. Getting something from a dealer may cost a little more upfront but might save a problem later if the camera is not as advertised or what you really want.

Good luck

steve simmons

[Eric_6578]

Thanks for the input, Donald and Steve.

Steve, I didn't mean to imply that I wanted to straighten trees that were naturally un-straight. Instead, I'm thinking of a picture I took with my 35mm camera and 24mm lens...I pointed the camera up to try and capture the majesty of the forest (probably a foolish endeavor, in any case) and wound up with a bunch of trees pointing toward the middle of the frame. I'd be able to fix that with a camera with front tilt, correct? (Since I'd be able to keep the film parallel to the trees.)

According to the seller, the Seneca no. 8 doesn't have front tilt, so perhaps I should look elsewhere. I believe the Ansco meets your "essential movements" criteria...it's also much bulkier. How about a happy medium? (Or maybe that's what the Ansco is, compared to monorails.)

Thanks again...

[Nick_3536]

The newer Anscos have front tilt. Newer is of course relative. I think it was added during the early 1940s. IIRC none of the models have front swing. OTOH my 8x10 had it user added. It wasn't very hard from the look of it. Just a little chisel work.

[Ernest Purdum]

I've snt you by email an article which I hope you will find helpful, though it doesn't specifically deal with the Seneca No. 8. My recollection of this model of the Seneca (which could be in error) is that it is basically a hand camera with very limited movements. It is light, not very large and closes up into a convenient box. It was probably made well before 1925, It was not all that rugged to begin with and by now may be rather fragile. Unfortunately, cameras which combine the Seneca's virtues along with useful movements are mostly rather recent, with rare and expensive exceptions such as the Deardorff Triamapro. They tend to sell for fairly high prices if in decent condition.

You will probably have further questions and this forum is a fine place to get help. By all means also feel free to email me if the article brings up any more questions.

[Eric_6578]

Answering myself yet again, I now see that perhaps back tilt and front rise are the two movements that could be used to remedy the "tall trees" problem. Boy...lots to learn.

[steve simmons]

I would call a few of the places I mentioned and just ask their advice about a camera for a first timer. You will get sme information even if you do not get a camera.

You might also want to do some reading about large format. There are several books out there and there are free articles on the view camera web site. It will not tell you which camera to buy but will help you decide which features are important to you.

steve simmons

www.viewcamera.com

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Eric,

Does it have to be 5X7 as there are several 4X5 outfits that would meet your requriements ( Tachihara, Osaka, Calumet Woodfield, Shen-Hao)?

[Eric_6578]

Eric Biggerstaff:

Q.T. has me convinced that 5x7 is the way to go. Perhaps the main reason? I could make my own prints without an enlarger. I live in a small apartment and am on a budget, so the idea of coming out with a lovely contact print with a minimum of additional equipment sounds really great.

I did look into some 4x5 stuff and it is tempting, since there's more of it, it's a little lighter, and I can buy film directly from my hometown camera shop. All in all, though, 5x7 seems like a better fit...perhaps it's just my contrarian streak.

Thanks for the suggestion...

[Scott Kathe]

Actually, I think you would level your camera and use front rise to fix the keystoning problem with trees if you have enough coverage with your lens and if you can get enough rise out of your camera. I built a Bender 4x5 a year ago and really liked the project but I wouldn't do it again. It has PLENTY of movements but just takes too long to set up and wide angle lenses aren't easy to work with in that system. I just got a Crown Graphic with Kalart Rangefinder and a 135mm Xenar for less than $250 in really nice shape. The Crown doesn't have much in the way of movements but it might be a good camera to get your feet wet (but I do miss all the movements I had with the Bender). If I had it to do over again I would go with a Tachihara because they are light and I do a lot of hiking to get my landscape and nature shots. Take all of this with a grain of salt, I've only doing large format for the past year or so and there is a lot more wisdom here than I'll ever obtain!

[Kevin Crisp]

The later Anscos have a lot going for them. They have geared front rise, and with very little modification, can have front swing. (Just remove the plate on the back of the front standard. ) They are front axis tilt. Not the lightest or smallest camera in the world but inexpensive and not easily outgrown. These are much more solid cameras than the B&J's, though the B&J's are quite generous with movements. The lens boards are big and easy to make. The bellows typically do not need replacement.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Eric,

Ahhhhh...........Sounds like 5X7 would be the perfect choice, good luck and I am sure you will find a good match for your needs.

[Ron Marshall]

Eric, I recently purchased a Sinar Norma, 5x7. If you watch ebay you may spot one for a reasonable price.

I love the large neg and particularly the aspect ratio. I also have a 3# Toho that I use when I will be more than a half mile from the car. My five lens 4x5 kit is 15# total. But if I was 10 years younger, and just doing a day hike, then taking the 5x7 would be feasable.

Have you considered what your first lens will be?

[Eric_6578]

Ron,

Thanks for the tip.

I have checked out MANY recommendations for lenses on this site, but the range of choices is still pretty overwhelming. I think I'll start with a normal-ish lens (210 or 240mm), unless someone tells me that if I'm shooting landscapes then it's far better to have a wide-angle on board. With my 35mm outfit, I've taken plenty of good shots with my normal lens for all types of photography, so I figure that's probably the best place to start with LF, too.

I'd be happy if you had some recommendations in mind! Thanks again...

[Ernest Purdum]

Many knowledgeable people would agreee wiith your thought regarding an approprieate starter focal length, though it is really avery individual matter. Some peoples eyes seem to look wide, others long.

Choosing a view camera lens is relly too complex a subject to do much with here, at least until its narrowed down somewhat more than just the desired focal length range. I sometimes send out a 41 page booklet to people in your situation. I'm out of printed copies today, but I will send you one by email if you like. Steve Simmons book "Using the View Camera" has, I think, the best section on lens selection amongst the three most frequently recommended books.

[John Kasaian]

For carting around in the woods, I'd be looking for a 5x7 Nagaoka (of course I AM looking for a 5x7 Nagaoka---people tend to hang on to them, so I've been looking for a few years now!)

A 5x7 Deardorff is out of your price range, but if you could swing it it would be a peachy camera IMHO.

Another option would be a 5x7 Speed Graphic which again is a hard diamond to find.

One of my favorite 5x7s in a Agfa Ansco Universal (or the planer janer gray Ansco) which should be well under $300 and has all the movements you'd ever dream of, but is rather boxy when folded (but still quite manageable)

Cheers!