Is tray development the best way to avoid scratches? What DON'T you like about it?

[Certain Exposures]

I was wondering, wouldn't developing in a tray virtually eliminate the chances of scratching? I got scratches on the 4x5 negative I developed last night.

Images here. (https://imgur.com/a/wVZQpje)

They were small patches of scratches only present on the three points of contact where the negative touches the 3D-printed holder. I was using the 20th Century 4x5 reel. I've used that reel a few times without a problem before. E6, C-41, B&W. I must have agitated the film too much

Unfortunately, a few scratches are visible on a critical spot in the center of the negative. Have you ever scratched a negative with tray development? Maybe you could rub the film too hard if you grab it wrong. Also, doing the entire process in the dark has to be tedious.

Also, tray development only works with B&W, right? You wouldn't have the option with E6 or C-41.

[Tin Can]

There is no best

I use trays in full dark or safe light

I prefer Gas Burst

[Sal Santamaura]

Until the advent of those inserts like MOD54 and knockoffs that have followed it, tray developing itself was the best way to scratch film. :) If you wish to obtain clean, scratch-free evenly developed negatives, invest in a Jobo Expert drum.

[Alan9940]

Doing a single sheet in a tray is the best way to eliminate scratches. In my experience, x-ray film needs to be developed this way. Tubes are an option for scratch-free development as are tanks/hangers. The latter, though, requires quite a bit of experience to achieve even development. Truth is, all options have up/down sides.

[Tin Can]

Untruth



Until the advent of those inserts like MOD54 and knockoffs that have followed it, tray developing itself was the best way to scratch film. :) If you wish to obtain clean, scratch-free evenly developed negatives, invest in a Jobo Expert drum.

[Kiwi7475]

Never had scratches using the SP-445. You can submerge it in a larger plastic container with a sous vide and process color (your hands or some contraption are needed to keep it from tilting/floating). I’ve also used their 8x10 tray (SP-8x10) with the dividers to fit 4 sheets of 4x5 and is great for B&W but not for color — large surface means faster temp changes and gradients which for me resulted in color shifts, and it’s not deep enough to submerge into a temp controlled bath.

Jobo expert is the best system but is a big investment both in cost and space. Worthwhile if you process a lot of color or if money and space are not an issue.

Tray development works great if you place a glass sheet covering the bottom. That is the only way I can develop X-ray film without any scratches (which is the most finicky film to get scratched). But again, not ideal for color.

[ASA1000]

Doesn't anyone use 4x5 hangars in a deep tank? Is there a better way? In a tray the negative is in contact with the bottom. With reels there is bending and friction.

[Kiwi7475]

Doesn't anyone use 4x5 hangars in a deep tank? Is there a better way? In a tray the negative is in contact with the bottom. With reels there is bending and friction.

The ones I’ve seen take a lot of chemistry. Good if you’re going to run multiple batches in one sitting until exhausting a large amount of chemicals, and if you can control their temperature. effectively that’s what an SP-445 is, with a lid.

There is no issue with tray processing due to contact with the bottom. I process double sided X-ray all the time without issues (with a glass sheet at the bottom to avoid scratching).

[Tin Can]

I use many hangers, including 3X4, 4X5, 8X10 singles

Also 2 up 5X7

I can process 16 4X5 on 4 up hangers in one go with my Gas Burst DIY system

Flat bottom trays work fine as, I do 11X14 in them one at a time


Get it all wet fast and keep it moving

I will never pay $500 for a plastic drum

I also process 2X3 sheet in a waffle holder in sealed MF cans


I also process up t0 14X36" with 2 clips and see saw in the tray






Doesn't anyone use 4x5 hangars in a deep tank? Is there a better way? In a tray the negative is in contact with the bottom. With reels there is bending and friction.

[Michael R]

You can't have everything. If you want the best possible uniformity, no risk of scratches, and easy of use, you have to give some on solution volumes/economy and the number of sheets you can do in one go. Note the choice of film is an important variable.

I had to resort to making my own device for this. Sheet film is a pain in the ass but so be it.

[Tin Can]

Thanks for sharing your secret process

When I need a LOT of developer, I use Ilford PQ the universal developer, in gallons



You can't have everything. If you want the best possible uniformity, no risk of scratches, and easy of use, you have to give some on solution volumes/economy and the number of sheets you can do in one go. Note the choice of film is an important variable.

I had to resort to making my own device for this. Sheet film is a pain in the ass but so be it.

[Michael R]

Nothing wrong with Ilford PQ or gallons of developer. It's just not an option for me (I don't have that kind of space), nor a requirement in my particular case since I'm a low volume shooter. I don't have any secret processes. I experimented extensively with most processes and then after a lot of additional work, finally ended up with an insert of my own making for the Paterson tank. It only does up to 4 sheets (I prefer 2) in one go and needs min. 600ml solution, so it's not what most people would want.


Thanks for sharing your secret process

When I need a LOT of developer, I use Ilford PQ the universal developer, in gallons

[Alan9940]

Never had scratches using the SP-445.

Never had any scratches with this tank, but I've had plenty of gouges in the emulsion from the little clips that secure the film to the holder. I only use this tank for testing purposes nowadays.

[Alan9940]

Doesn't anyone use 4x5 hangars in a deep tank? Is there a better way? In a tray the negative is in contact with the bottom. With reels there is bending and friction.

I've tried 4-up 4x5 hangers in tanks but, unlike Tin Can, I've never gotten acceptably even development; same with single 8x10. I've done my research and tried all the various agitation methods but still come up short. Honestly, the closet I got to acceptable results was using the method St. Ansel recommends in his book. I have had some success with 8x10 and Pyrocat-HD using minimal agitation.

[Tin Can]

Very good

Thank you



Nothing wrong with Ilford PQ or gallons of developer. It's just not an option for me (I don't have that kind of space), nor a requirement in my particular case since I'm a low volume shooter. I don't have any secret processes. I experimented extensively with most processes and then after a lot of additional work, finally ended up with an insert of my own making for the Paterson tank. It only does up to 4 sheets (I prefer 2) in one go and needs min. 600ml solution, so it's not what most people would want.

[Certain Exposures]

I've tried 4-up 4x5 hangers in tanks but, unlike Tin Can, I've never gotten acceptably even development; same with single 8x10. I've done my research and tried all the various agitation methods but still come up short. Honestly, the closet I got to acceptable results was using the method St. Ansel recommends in his book. I have had some success with 8x10 and Pyrocat-HD using minimal agitation.

What's a CliffsNotes description of his method (if possible)?

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I'm reading and considering.

[Tin Can]

Hangers were NEVER perfect and back in the day I have heard rebates and edges were NOT important

KODAK hangers are best as they have more holes

Here is a 2/1 8X10 X-Ray Macro pulled early to see what IS going on

Poor agitation, yet I like it as a PHOTOGRAPH

To me is is the fog of War

YMMV

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52492659625_f385c9e4f7_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/xB0P05bWYS)Screwdriver Ghost 8X10 2-1 Macro X-Ray (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/xB0P05bWYS) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr


What's a CliffsNotes description of his method (if possible)?

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I'm reading and considering.

[jp]

Never any scratches with 4x5 in the combiplan tanks.

[Michael R]

One of my other secrets was to make my own hangers for manual dip/dunk. The Kodak hangers with the holes etc were intended to remain stationary in a nitrogen burst system (if I recall correctly you have a gas burst system). When the are used for manual dip/dunk action uniformity is usually poor as they were not designed with that kind of motion in mind.


Hangers were NEVER perfect and back in the day I have heard rebates and edges were NOT important

KODAK hangers are best as they have more holes

Here is a 2/1 8X10 X-Ray Macro pulled early to see what IS going on

Poor agitation, yet I like it as a PHOTOGRAPH

To me is is the fog of War

YMMV

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52492659625_f385c9e4f7_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/xB0P05bWYS)Screwdriver Ghost 8X10 2-1 Macro X-Ray (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/xB0P05bWYS) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Doremus Scudder]

I tray develop, have for 30+ years. Here's my take:

Tray developing can be the most even and virtually scratch-free. But, and it's a big BUT, you have to master the technique. I often say, "the simplest tools require the greatest skill," and tray developing really exemplifies this.

My method (which is very similar to AA's recommendations in his The Negative), is to shuffle up to six sheets of 4x5 film at a time in a 5x7 tray. Some use 8x10 trays, that's fine too, but I like the deep Paterson 5x7 trays.

Choice of trays is important. The bottoms must be smooth enough not to scratch film when you pull a sheet from the bottom of the stack and move it to the top.

To avoid scratching the film when you are shuffling, you need to practice until you can keep the stack together the whole development time, not gouge any films with the corner of another when you pull one off the bottom and then re-submerge it on top of the stack.

In order to learn this kind of tray processing you need to have a modicum of dexterity and the patience to learn the skill and develop your own technique. I recommend practicing with scrap sheets. Use three of four. Set up a tray of water and do the initial shuffling with the lights on till you get the idea. Then close your eyes and do some shuffling. Finally, expose some test sheets and do a trial run or two with just two or three sheets at a time with real chemicals.

I also find that using good-quality film from Ilford or Kodak, which is well-hardened, helps reduce scratches. That said, I've worked with Foma films and with the now-defunct BPF-200 quite a lot without scratching; you just have to be more careful.

Search on my name here or over at Photrio if you're interested in a detailed description of my tray-developing technique. I've posted it a couple of times before.

The above might seem like a lot of bother compared to other methods, but, when you think about it, you have to handle the film a lot getting it loaded into tanks, hangers, reels, slots in whatever processor you are using, all of which, if bungled, will scratch your film, not to mention loading and unloading film holders. Handling of sheet film is just one of the things we have to learn if we want to work with it.

Tray developing can be the most flexible (think different sheets at different times), most economical and deliver extremely high-quality results. It all depends on the skill of the person doing the developing.

Best,

Doremus

[Michael R]

+1 somewhat surprisingly good old hand shuffling in trays produces better uniformity than most other methods if it is done carefully/properly. It can take some experimentation to fine tune (speed, frequency, pushing the sheet below the surface etc.) but can be quite good with practice. The downside is the risk of scratching, but it works fine for many people. Good enough for Mark Citret ought to be good enough for anybody.


I've tried 4-up 4x5 hangers in tanks but, unlike Tin Can, I've never gotten acceptably even development; same with single 8x10. I've done my research and tried all the various agitation methods but still come up short. Honestly, the closet I got to acceptable results was using the method St. Ansel recommends in his book. I have had some success with 8x10 and Pyrocat-HD using minimal agitation.

[Sal Santamaura]

Until the advent of those inserts like MOD54 and knockoffs that have followed it, tray developing itself was the best way to scratch film. :) If you wish to obtain clean, scratch-free evenly developed negatives, invest in a Jobo Expert drum.


Untruth

I don't lie, Randy. It takes practice, skill and luck to avoid scratches when tray developing. Sexton and others didn't abandon it for Jobo for no reason.


...It can take some experimentation to fine tune (speed, frequency, pushing the sheet below the surface etc.) but can be quite good with practice. The downside is the risk of scratching...

[Michael R]

Further to Sal's post I should qualify my Citret example a little. He gets good uniformity and never saw a reason to change methods but there are a few caveats:

(1) Scratches can occur (no matter how practiced you are you can't completely eliminate the risk)
(2) Re (1), different films are more or less risky. Kodak films seem to be the most robust, followed by Ilford, but when Citret experimented with Foma films he had too many problems
(3) Do you darkroom-print or scan? Here again, when working on some negative scans Citret discovered his negatives often had fine/micro scratches that required work in software editing. They had never shown up in darkroom prints so he simply hadn't noticed them before.

[John Layton]

Too lazy to review to see if this has yet been mentioned...but before tray processing, by all means run your fingers over the tray bottoms very carefully - to see that there are no little sharpish areas, which can scratch even a single-processed negative. The old Kodak trays with the really narrow ridges should also be avoided. Completely flat bottoms can be a pain as negatives can stick to this...even with the films completely saturated. Trays I like best are the ones with smooth channels recessed into the bottom - which provide appropriate hydraulics plus offer recesses to get fingers under films which have become (too) close to the bottom.

[Kiwi7475]

You can't have everything. If you want the best possible uniformity, no risk of scratches, and easy of use, you have to give some on solution volumes/economy and the number of sheets you can do in one go. Note the choice of film is an important variable.

I had to resort to making my own device for this. Sheet film is a pain in the ass but so be it.

Agreed for B&W. But since the OP was also asking about color neg/slide developing, volumes and economy ARE a big consideration. At some point you are otherwise better off sending it to a lab for processing.

[Kevin Crisp]

I've always developed sheet film, two at a time, in a homemade slosher that lets the sheets float around randomly and not hit each other. I don't shuffle, each sheet has plenty of room to randomly wander around during agitation. I have yet to scratch one. I've never had uneven development issues and I don't pre-wet. The learning curve for this is essentially nil, but it is slower. Film is developed emulsion side up. I am careful picking up the wet film so I don't scratch it with my longer guitar picking fingernails on the right hand.

[John Olsen]

Doesn't anyone use 4x5 hangars in a deep tank? Is there a better way? In a tray the negative is in contact with the bottom. With reels there is bending and friction.

I got too many uneven swirls along the hanger edges with tank processing, so I switched to one-at-a-time tray development. I lay the negative in emulsion-up and never have gotten scratches. I also use a prewet so that I won't get uneveness from the initial placement of the neg into the tray.

One last thought about tray scratches: towel dry your trays after use to avoid mineral build-up that might be scratchy.

[bmikiten]

They may be referring to some of the early 445 designs which did (in my and other's experience) scratch film. New designs are much better. I have most of the systems (and helped develop the BTZS tubes) and each has a value depending on your needs.

[Drew Wiley]

I certainly prefer tray development, but just like anything else, it requires practice and consistency. If I'm too tired, or have just too many sheets in the tray at the same time, it might cause me to hastily or carelessly shuffle them, and potentially nick or scratch the emulsion of one sheet with the corner of another. Trays also conserve chemistry. For example, I use only 400ml of developer for up to 12 sheets of 4x5 in a tray - not that I recommend doing 12 sheets at a time, more likely only 6 for the reasons I just outlined - you don't want to be rushed or a mistake is apt to occur. For 4x5 I use stainless dimple-bottomed trays about 5x7 inch size. For 8x10 film, it's an 11X14 tray. You always want the tray to be slightly oversize. Stainless is nice because it more quickly conducts the temperature of the surrounding water jacket than plastic would do.

I think just loading film into a Jobo drum is a much faster route to scratching film than tray development. But whatever. You can do single-sheet dev in simple inexpensive drums, one at a time, if you want to. But that's awfully slow and developer-wasteful as far as quantity goes.

[Michael R]

Agreed for B&W. But since the OP was also asking about color neg/slide developing, volumes and economy ARE a big consideration. At some point you are otherwise better off sending it to a lab for processing.

Indeed - good point. I forgot about color film. Me personally, I wouldn't do color film processing at home, but that's just me.

[Alan9940]

What's a CliffsNotes description of his method (if possible)?

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I'm reading and considering.

One agitation cycle consists of: up to right or left with about 45 degree tilt, down, up opposite direction of first with tilt (I should mention that you want to let the chemistry drain for a couple of seconds on both tilts), down, then straight up and down. I add a twist at the end whereby I pick the holders up an inch or two, then let them drop to mitigate bubbles.

Nothing wrong with tray development, once you've mastered the technique. This was the only way I developed 4x5 and 8x10 for about 20 years, but then I got a Jobo and Expert Drums. As Sal intimated to, at that point is when I discovered how unevenly my sheet film was being developed. I used one tray size larger than my film, as many recommend, but still got higher density along one or more edges. Never remember getting any scratches so I must have had that part of the technique nailed. The only reason the Jobo is not my only method of film development is because one cannot employ techniques such as minimal or stand agitation. I really like the results I get with Pyrocat-HD agitated every 3 - 4 minutes; negatives with such pronounced edge effects that you should be careful handling them in fear of cuts! ;)

[Tin Can]

My fingers are not the greatest, air tools, motorcycles and weapons. Ex NRA. CC

I tried shuffle. Cannot do it.

I tried baggies. They worked!

Tried lots of thing to process sheet film. 35 mm very easy. 120 not so easy.

My absolute favorite is 2X3 sheet as I use a rare 'waffle' insert that holds 12 films bent slightly

Once loaded with cap on it never sees light and dries in the tin can

Pics coming shortly of waffle thing

somebody should make them

[Drew Wiley]

Don't have time at the moment to go into the details of my own tray shuffle method. But I get superb evenness of development, even with fussy color separation negs or coordinate masks which have to be very precisely matched and free of surge marks, streaks, or uneven fbf. I only use the Jobo hand-inversion drums relative to 120 and roll film. The sheet film kind take too much time to fill and drain. My color paper drums are a superior design and way faster in that respect; but I don't use them for film anymore. Guess I could if was I was forced to do C-41 or E6 sheet film dev at home; but it's avail 15 min away right down the freeway at Underdog Film Lab, including 8x10 film size; 120 and 4x5 film processing even closer when I happen to be in that neighborhood.

[Vaughn]

Jobo Expert Drums (3005 and 3006) on a Unicolor motor base. Takes up the space of two 8x10 trays. Does what I want, where and when I want to do it. I have spent months of hours in a dark room tray processing 4x5 -- still do it for 11x14, but do not miss it much.

For double sided x-ray film or rough-bottomed trays, a piece of glass on the bottom of the tray will help.

[Ben Calwell]

In more than 30 years of tray developing sheet film, I’ve had scratched film one time. It works for me. I don’t mind standing in complete darkness while shuffling sheets. In fact, I like it. Starting out, I used metal sheet film holders in tanks. Had trouble with surge patterns in areas of smooth tonality. Switched to trays, which gives me pristine negs.

[Jim Noel]

Doing a single sheet in a tray is the best way to eliminate scratches. In my experience, x-ray film needs to be developed this way. Tubes are an option for scratch-free development as are tanks/hangers. The latter, though, requires quite a bit of experience to achieve even development. Truth is, all options have up/down sides.

I agree

[Drew Wiley]

Certain EU sheet films have sharper edges n' corners and softer less protected emulsions than the better Kodak and Ilford films, so are more easily scratched or scuffed.

[Alan9940]

Had trouble with surge patterns in areas of smooth tonality.

When I first started out with tanks & hangers, I got pretty bad surge marks from the holes along the bottom of the hanger. Over the years and through a bit of experience, I eventually settled into a slower, smoother agitation cycle which greatly reduced that issue. I can sometimes see some faint indication of surge marks in the even tonality of blue sky (B&W landscapes), but I have a trick for that: turn the negative around when inserting into the hanger such that the sky area is at the top. I've found that any faint marks get lost in the mixed tonality of a foreground.

[Fred L]

There is no best

I use trays in full dark or safe light

I prefer Gas Burst

Are you using nitrogen for the burst ? Years ago I picked up a nitrogen regulator (iirc) but never got around to trying to figure out how to make a plenum for the bubbles. My volume is low so maybe not worth the headache ?

[Drew Wiley]

Not just a headache, but like other tank methods, require a large amount of developer volume at a time. You really need a lot of film volume to justify it.

[Merg Ross]

As a teenager, I was taught to tray develop by inspection, both 4x5 and 8x10 film. The size of the tray is important; 8x10 for 4x5 has always been my choice. The use of a pinch or two of sodium metaborate (Kodalk) in the presoak makes an easier shuffle. The shuffle takes practice, but the tray process gives the best results for even development, in my opinion. Scratches are a result of poor technique. When I was doing professional work, twelve negatives per tray was typical, not done by inspection. Edward Weston, not known for a large output, tray developed his 8x10's one at a time, by inspection. The keys are practice and perseverance; don't become discouraged!

[Per Madsen]

Never any scratches with 4x5 in the combiplan tanks.

The same for me.

[Larry Gebhardt]

I’m amazed at those that can shuffle 6 or more sheets and not get any scratches. I am not dexterous. I like the jobo expert drums since they are very even. For smaller film formats I think the edge effects of intermittent agitation have benefits so tend to use SS tanks.

Your reel is probably fixable. Have you tried sanding down all the rough areas of the reel that contact the film? 3D printed objects do not come off the printer as smooth as injection molded plastic.

[Tin Can]

I notice I am the only one to actually show an in process neg

Good, Bad or Ugly

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50376431731_93523e2a72_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jKAo4M)HRU Fixing Step Dental Clips 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jKAo4M) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I have found that using XRAY CLIPS on Fuji HRU can completely eliminate scratches, if you are diligent

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50378155288_fda5e13f91_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jKKdqh)HRU Makiflex Std Mic-X 240 f4.5 Tele-Arton (https://flic.kr/p/2jKKdqh) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

See? Perfect no defects!

[Michael R]

I notice I am the only one to actually show an in process neg

Good, Bad or Ugly

I will try to photograph one of my tests - not easy as it has to be perfectly flat to photograph ok (unfortunately I don't currently have a scanner, which would be much easier). My test negatives are uniformly flashed, then developed, then contact printed onto matte paper at high contrast. This method is a little over the top from a photographic perspective since it will show any little flaw or variation typically hidden in actual photographs. Nevertheless it is the best way to compare the results from various processing methods.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Daniel, that's such a simple solution for keeping multiple sheets from touching in a tray. Makes me feel a bit silly for ordering the Strearman press tray to play with intermittent agitation on 5x7, though that does allow processing in the light.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Thanks Larry! BTW I am getting ready to align that Omega 5x7 E3 enlarger I got from you, I cleaned up the exterior metal and now it looks great! Have all of the original E3 carriers now and I've been using it with a 5x7 Omegalite for E4. Works just great and doesn't get hot at all

I bought XRAY clips several bags a buck a piece on Ebay. Now I have a good pile of them. Works great

That original autofocus 190 Wolly is really not too bad a performer. KHB says that enlarger was military only not ever sold to the public. What a great find!

[ASA1000]

.......with a glass sheet at the bottom to avoid scratching).

Ahh! that will work! ;-)

[Drew Wiley]

Why would a tray scratch film unless it's dirty? Film scratches other film. Most trays are either smooth polyethylene or styrene, or smooth stainless. Mine have either moulded-in smooth dimples, or post-attached very smooth silicone ones to keep the film reliably off the bottom; and I always develop emulsion-up. Doing it emulsion-down temps air bell effects as well as sticking and unevenness.

The most sensitive point in the process is right at the start, as you put your sheets one after another into the pre-soak. There's a risk of them sticking together if not done right.

Combi-plan? I use the inners of those for sake of retaining 4x5 sheets in the final washing phase, in an 11X14 slot washer with the septums removed, but otherwise found the system hopeless for development itself - miserably uneven densities.