Lightweight 4x5 with good movements?

[jimi2]

Hi all, I’m just getting back into shooting large format after quite a few years. I love my old Toyo 45c’s movements, but it’s far too heavy and bulky to take hiking, so I’m looking at getting a wooden field camera. Any recommendation for a lightweight one with extensive movements? So far I’m looking at the Tachihara 4x5 and the Toko Nikki ii, both of which come in around 3.5lbs. Does the Toko have better movement range? The Tachihara is far less expensive, but I could stretch for the Toko if necessary. Any other cameras I should be looking at? Thanks for the help!

[xkaes]

Does the Toko have better movement range?

YES!!!

How did you hear about the TOKOs. Most people think you mean TOYO.

http://www.subclub.org/toko/

[jimi2]

YES!!!

How did you hear about the TOKOs. Most people think you mean TOYO.

http://www.subclub.org/toko/

I just came across some info on them while searching online. I do gather they’re pretty rare, but there is one available locally. I’m just debating whether the price difference is worth as it’s almost twice the cost of a Tachihara, and I haven’t used either one. I used to like to do stuff with weird planes of focus and throwing backgrounds out of focus, so it would be nice to have extensive movements. It’s a big difference between the Tachihara and Toko, huh?

[xkaes]

It’s a big difference between the Tachihara and Toko, huh?

Check out that website.

TOKOs usually sell for less than other wooden field cameras -- not more. That's simply because fewer people know about them. They are not rare, by any means, but they are harder to find because people who have them won't let them go!

Tachiharas & Wistas have ridiculous asking prices nowadays, and I'd never pay that much -- let alone for a TOKO, even though it's better.

Keep in mind that most people using field cameras don't need a lot of movement. If you think you do, figure out which movements and how much you need. Then find the cameras that offer it.

[xkaes]

Keep in mind that the Wistas and Tachiharas, etc. came in different versions that had different movements -- complicating things.

The TOKOs came in two versions -- 12" or 14" bellows (with 2" extra of rear extension). The movements are the same on both, and of course the weight is different. The 14" (360mm) version seems to be a lot more common.

[Ben Calwell]

I use a Wista DX in rosewood that has rear shift and swing. It’s fairly lightweight and fits well into a backpack. Although I like it, I don’t absolutely love it. Not surprisingly, it doesn’t have the precise feel of my Linhof 5x7 or my monorail camera. I like to use a loupe on the ground glass, and when you want to tilt the front or back while using a loupe, it’s a bit tricky. It’s like you need a third hand. But it’s doable.

[Ulophot]

Yes, there are Tachiharas and Tachiharas. I have only one, a 4x5. It has no shift, and the front swing is a bit limited. IT can be expanded, of course, by panning the camera a bit. Mine also has no detents on the front board, which means I need to be careful when the bellows are out a ways, if the lens is not on horizontal axis. For me, this is rarely an issue, as long as I'm reasonably careful, because the portraits I shoot don't require much bellwo extension with the lenses I have. The may be considerations for you, which is why I list them. I found my camera here on the forum for under $500 and have put several hundred into repairs and a new bellows. It's lightweight and suits me fine.

[jimi2]

Thanks everyone. I’m really starting over here after shooting 4x5 in college like 20 years ago, so this is all good info.

The Toko is about $1300, which is more than I wanted to spend, but it’s local and comes with a return policy vs getting a Tachichara on eBay for $800-900. Looks like the Toko has rear standard focusing in addition to the better movements. I’m leaning toward picking it up as I can’t find a single other one out there.

[jimi2]

Yes, there are Tachiharas and Tachiharas. I have only one, a 4x5. It has no shift, and the front swing is a bit limited. IT can be expanded, of course, by panning the camera a bit. Mine also has no detents on the front board, which means I need to be careful when the bellows are out a ways, if the lens is not on horizontal axis. For me, this is rarely an issue, as long as I'm reasonably careful, because the portraits I shoot don't require much bellwo extension with the lenses I have. The may be considerations for you, which is why I list them. I found my camera here on the forum for under $500 and have put several hundred into repairs and a new bellows. It's lightweight and suits me fine.

Thanks, which model do you have? I think I’d definitely prefer more movement flexiblity, particularly the front swing.

[Larry Gebhardt]

The Chamonix 45N has served me well. It’s about 3.25 pounds. It’s a camera I would buy again if I were to lose it somehow.

[xkaes]

Thanks everyone. I’m really starting over here after shooting 4x5 in college like 20 years ago, so this is all good info.

The Toko is about $1300, which is more than I wanted to spend, but it’s local and comes with a return policy vs getting a Tachichara on eBay for $800-900. Looks like the Toko has rear standard focusing in addition to the better movements. I’m leaning toward picking it up as I can’t find a single other one out there.


Yikes. I bought a Tachihara a few months ago in perfect shape for $300, and I'd never pay more that $700 for a Toko -- unless it had a really nice lens. But I don't live where you do, and I'm not in a rush. For $1200, I might consider selling one of mine!

[Ulophot]

Jimi2, my Tachi is the 4x5 Hope, but again, there are variations over the years. Mine is fairly typical. What I said about the front swing you'll find in books on using a view camera: When the movements are insufficient, there are ways to overcome the issue. In this case, for example, you could swing the back in the opposite direction and then, if desired, pan the camera a bit so that the back realigned parallel to subject to prevent a shape change. In the case of lacking a shift movement, you pan the camera slightly, then swing front and back to make them parallel; the result is the same as shift.

[jimi2]

Actually, looks like there’s not [I]that[I]much difference in movements among the Toko, Wista Dx, and Tachihara Hope. And the later two are available on eBay for 500-800. So I may just go with the Tachihara - it has almost as much front swing (17 degrees) and more rear swing (23) than the Toko.

[Lachlan 717]

Get an Intrepid and some good glass…

[bertie]

I have a Nagaoka which is incredibly light but has limited movements. That said when it comes to landscapes I've come away feel wanting. It's got decent feint rise/fall and tilt, rear tilt, and a bit of rear swing. Also they're cheaper than the Wistas and Tachiharas they're based off of.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Tin Can]

MY beautiful no name Nagaoka has a real good factory fresnel with custom silver paint

The LIGHTEST 4x5 Large Format Field Camera! | Nagaoka

Thanks Kumar!

[jimi2]

MY beautiful no name Nagaoka has a real good factory fresnel with custom silver paint

The LIGHTEST 4x5 Large Format Field Camera! | Nagaoka

Thanks Kumar!

Those Nagaokas are SO light. I would love to have a 4x5 that weighs 2.5 lbs, but I ended up deciding to sacrifice some weight for better movements. I just ordered a Chamonix 45f-1 from KEH for $800. I think it’ll do everything I want, but if not, I’ll just send it back. Seemed about the same price as the Tachiharas, and I won’t have to deal with shipping from or to Japan.

[Willie]

What do you consider "Extensive Movements"?

Most field camera users don't find they need all that much.

Let us know the minimum amount that is acceptable - will make matching you with a camera much easier.

[Joseph Kashi]

Hi all, I’m just getting back into shooting large format after quite a few years. I love my old Toyo 45c’s movements, but it’s far too heavy and bulky to take hiking, so I’m looking at getting a wooden field camera. Any recommendation for a lightweight one with extensive movements? So far I’m looking at the Tachihara 4x5 and the Toko Nikki ii, both of which come in around 3.5lbs. Does the Toko have better movement range? The Tachihara is far less expensive, but I could stretch for the Toko if necessary. Any other cameras I should be looking at? Thanks for the help!

You might also consider a Toho 45FX, a super-light weight, collapsible monorail 4x5. (I know that it sounds confusing but there are Toho, Toko, and Toyo folding large format cameras.)

[xkaes]

Actually, looks like there’s not [I]that[I]much difference in movements among the Toko, Wista Dx, and Tachihara Hope. And the later two are available on eBay for 500-800. So I may just go with the Tachihara - it has almost as much front swing (17 degrees) and more rear swing (23) than the Toko.

And how much total extension? And rear forward AND backward movement???

[xkaes]

What do you consider "Extensive Movements"?

Most field camera users don't find they need all that much.

Let us know the minimum amount that is acceptable - will make matching you with a camera much easier.

Exactly my point way back in message #4:

"Keep in mind that most people using field cameras don't need a lot of movement. If you think you do, figure out which movements and how much you need. Then find the cameras that offer it."

[jimi2]

Exactly my point way back in message #4:

"Keep in mind that most people using field cameras don't need a lot of movement. If you think you do, figure out which movements and how much you need. Then find the cameras that offer it."

Point taken. Unfortunately, I can’t provide you guys with exact numbers as I’m just jumping into this again, so I don’t really know what I’ll need. my only point of comparison is my huge monorail Toyo that does nearly everything. Like I said initially, I’m interested in doing some selective/weird plane of focus stuff with this at least some of the time, and I also plan to take the camera hiking and doing some more traditional landscape stuff. It seemed safest
to find a very light (under four lbs?) camera with as generally extensive movements as possible. But l guess I’m thinking lots of swing and tilt on the front standard for sure, and at least some of both on the rear. I used to like to place the plane of focus at weird angles sometimes. And then I’ll also be doing more traditional depth of field correction. I think I’ll have less use for rise, fall, and shift, though perhaps those would be nice to have sometimes. Maybe that clarifies slightly? It seemed like the Chamonix should do what I need it to do…

[Tobias Key]

I started my large format journey with a Toyo monorail and went to a Wista 45DX for field work. I have never really run into the issue of lack of movements, for rise/fall you can always raise or lower the bed and adjust accordingly. The lack of gearing takes some getting used to but any decent field camera will be more than enough for almost everything.

[rfesk]

The Toho (already mentioned), Gowland Pocket View (make sure it has the movements at the rear) will do everything you ask for.
There is a 4x5 PortaVu with lenses on www.Photrio.com (AKA Apug.org) classifieds that will also work.
All meet your requirements of weight and movements but are monorails.

[xkaes]

It seemed like the Chamonix should do what I need it to do…

It very well might, but there are LOTS of Chamonix models and they vary quite a bit in their weight, movement, bellows extension, cost -- you name it.

[Alan Klein]

Point taken. Unfortunately, I can’t provide you guys with exact numbers as I’m just jumping into this again, so I don’t really know what I’ll need. my only point of comparison is my huge monorail Toyo that does nearly everything. Like I said initially, I’m interested in doing some selective/weird plane of focus stuff with this at least some of the time, and I also plan to take the camera hiking and doing some more traditional landscape stuff. It seemed safest
to find a very light (under four lbs?) camera with as generally extensive movements as possible. But l guess I’m thinking lots of swing and tilt on the front standard for sure, and at least some of both on the rear. I used to like to place the plane of focus at weird angles sometimes. And then I’ll also be doing more traditional depth of field correction. I think I’ll have less use for rise, fall, and shift, though perhaps those would be nice to have sometimes. Maybe that clarifies slightly? It seemed like the Chamonix should do what I need it to do…

You're probably looking at the 45F-2.
https://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45f2

Check the specs for this and their other models to see if the movements are enough for you. Email them if you have any questions.

[Doremus Scudder]

Late to the party here.

I use wooden folding field cameras for just about everything now. My "field" kit consists of a Wista DX and lenses. My "city" kit is a Wista SW (basically a DX with interchangeable bellows). I use it for architectural shots in close quarters when working in cities. The wide-angle bellows on the SW allow me enough movements to vignette my Nikkor SW 90mm f/8 and my Wide Field Ektar 135mm lenses.

If I were to look at other wooden folders that would fit the bill, I'd certainly look seriously at the Chamonix models with the "universal" bellows.

Here's a photo of my SW twisted up a bit for a shot. Note I've used rise, additional rise with "point-and-tilt-parallel" as well as some shift and a bit of swing on both standards to get them parallel to the building façade. I'm right at the edge of coverage with the WF Ektar 135.


Best,

Doremus

[Jim Noel]

I've owned and used an early Cherrywood Toko for more years than I can remember. During this time I've had several other 4x5 wooden field cameras including a True Baby Deardorff. The only one I really liked as much as the Toko was the Baby. I probably would have kept it if I hadn't been offered several thousand $$. The Toko is still original and my go to 4x5.

[jimi2]

You're probably looking at the 45F-2.
https://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45f2

Check the specs for this and their other models to see if the movements are enough for you. Email them if you have any questions.

I think you’re right - KEH had a good deal on a 45f1, so I got it way cheaper than the 45f2, and it looks mostly equivalent.

[jimi2]

Nice. It’s a shame those Tokos are so hard to find. I would have bought the one I mentioned early in the thread, but everything at that store seemed really expensive.

[Roberto Nania]

Those Nagaokas are SO light. I would love to have a 4x5 that weighs 2.5 lbs, but I ended up deciding to sacrifice some weight for better movements. I just ordered a Chamonix 45f-1 from KEH for $800. I think it’ll do everything I want, but if not, I’ll just send it back. Seemed about the same price as the Tachiharas, and I won’t have to deal with shipping from or to Japan.

Hello Jimi,
You made a good choice with the Chamonix. I own the 45N-2, well built, beautiful and plenty of movements. If I could swap it with another camera I probably would go for the 45H-1 because I like its ever-ready style, now I know that it fits my needs better. Good for you to found your camera on a shop since Chamonix have quite long lead times.

[Alan Klein]

I think you’re right - KEH had a good deal on a 45f1, so I got it way cheaper than the 45f2, and it looks mostly equivalent.

Good luck with your camera. Happy hunting.

[Axelwik]

Intrepid makes a great camera for a fraction of what most of the others cost.

[jimi2]

Good luck with your camera. Happy hunting.

Thanks!

[jimi2]

Intrepid makes a great camera for a fraction of what most of the others cost.

I actually considered one of those - the price can’t be beat. They looked a little flimsy though, but perhaps that impression was mistake .

[Jeembo]

I actually considered one of those - the price can’t be beat. They looked a little flimsy though, but perhaps that impression was mistake .

Those are pretty good and their custom support is really nice, if something happens ofc. But yeah, it's not as sturdy as alternatives obviously.

[Lachlan 717]

I’ve put my 210mm Super Angulon on my Intrepid 8x10”.

Don’t believe the “I suspect” crew - believe the”I did”.

Make sure you’re realistic about your needs. “What ifs” cost money and are, for the average user, based on diminished returns. Most 4x5” users will only use “average” lenses. 75mm to 240mm Plasmats won’t cause the Intrepid to glow, let alone sweat. A 300mm will only give you 20mm draw, so this mightn’t be a suitable option if you’re going long.