45% Humidity and Ilford FB Still Won't Dry Flat

[ASA1000]

This is the extension of a previous thread about how Ilford Fiber Base paper curls badly on one side. It's the short side on 8x10s and the long side on 11x14.
I wash, blot with a sponge, hand dry on a soft towel on a flat surface, and then screen dry, face down. The edges curl when drying and when I flatten them in the press, even in the best situation, there is still a noticeable crinkle along the affected edge after pressing
Several people suggested that the 20% humidity in my Colorado basement was the problem and that I needed around 45% humidity for prints to dry flat.

So I bought a humidifier and set up a screen in a 10x12 bathroom. With the door slightly cracked I can be at 45% humidity all day. (photo)
Next, I took a fresh sheet of paper out of a new box, fixed and washed it and then went through the blotting and towel dry procedure and put it on the screen for about 12 hours.(photo)
It was a little flatter on three sides, but one side still curled and when flattened, there were wrinkles just as at 20% humidity. (photo)

I have thought this could be a manufacturing problem caused by a dull cutter that 'pinches' the paper and causes the water to wick off that side differently - I really believe this, most!
I have thought perhaps something in my chemistry is causing this - but it's pretty much Dektol and F24 non hardening fix, hypo clear and a 30 min wash.
I have thought about humidity - with no humidifier the prints dried in about 3 hours and even with the humidifier prints dry in about 5 hours - that seems too fast to me.
I have thought about a double-roller squeegee to put the wet prints through (like a mop bucket!)

Any other ideas?
Thx!
237113237114 237115

[Merg Ross]

Have you tried to squeegee the prints both sides and then place face down on the screen? I'm not understanding the sponge and towel procedure. Seems the prints are drying too fast, as you say.

[interneg]

What sort of washer are you using?

And secondly, why are you not using a rapid fix? Are you using a stop bath?

Properly squeegeeing the print surface is also a good idea.

The wrinkle is most likely from the gelatin drying & shrinking in particular ways - that is what causes FB to curl, owing to a different drying/ shrinkage rate relative to the base.

[Rick A]

Looks like a product of over washing. I use a neutral rapid fix followed by a short wash, then HCA (wash aid) then final wash. I squeegee my prints then dry on screens. I don't get near the curl your prints show. I've given away my print dryers, they help keep curl to a minimum but you still need to squeegee before drying.

[Michael R]

My FB prints are sometimes curled/wavy all over the place after air drying so I flatten them on low heat in the dry mount press which leaves them basically flat with a slight curl. Makes them easier to store for later dry mounting. I’d never expect a FB paper to dry flat/uniform enough for presentation without it least having it tipped in or something but anyway.

I do it all the old fashioned way. After the wash I simply squeegee and then let them air dry.

Ilford suggests using Ilfotol (like Photo Flo) to aid even drying but I’ve never done it. Perhaps OP can try that.

[Corran]

I've had this same problem randomly with one batch of prints/paper. Never happened before or since. Perhaps your idea of a strange manufacturing difference / effect is possible. My process did not change.

[Kiwi7475]

I can only tell you what worked for me: an electric press. Since I got this all my prints are flat. Here’s what I use:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234414353177?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=fMtiXDCEQFK&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=cJD-EcLCQ9e&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

(Other models and sizes exist). Works great— I basically stick the print in between two white mat boards and press it hot. Here’s a good video on how to do this:

https://youtu.be/oG30kHW6cBU

[ASA1000]

Have you tried to squeegee the prints both sides and then place face down on the screen? I'm not understanding the sponge and towel procedure. Seems the prints are drying too fast, as you say.

Yes I've tried squeezing both sides, but to eliminate 'loading' one edge of the print with water I went to blotting with a sponge and then patting them between dry towels before putting on the screen. The blotting and towels give a better result. But yes I've squeezed them and it doesn't help. thx!

[ASA1000]

I've had a Patterson washer for30 years.... prints stand up in it. I've thought about this too, but even when I wash them in a tray, like the blank sheet I showed at the top of the post, it curls. 237123

I like the metabisulfite fix. No hardener and a nice tone. I'm trying to make prints that look like the prints I was making in the 80s. That fix and the 54D developer formula was what I was using. This new fangled Ilford paper with that recipe, and untoned, is very close to a selenium toned Ilford Gallery print from back then.

That said, do you have a reason to think this could be chemistry related?

Thx!

[ASA1000]

Looks like a product of over washing. I use a neutral rapid fix followed by a short wash, then HCA (wash aid) then final wash. I squeegee my prints then dry on screens. I don't get near the curl your prints show. I've given away my print dryers, they help keep curl to a minimum but you still need to squeegee before drying.

This is a fiber based paper. I washed the test print in the photo above for 25 minutes. What can you tell me about overwashing? The curl you do get, is it on the edges like mine, or is it a uniform bend of the entire sheet... and what size paper? Thx!

[ASA1000]

My FB prints are sometimes curled/wavy all over the place after air drying so I flatten them on low heat in the dry mount press which leaves them basically flat with a slight curl. Makes them easier to store for later dry mounting. I’d never expect a FB paper to dry flat/uniform enough for presentation without it least having it tipped in or something but anyway.

I do it all the old fashioned way. After the wash I simply squeegee and then let them air dry.

Ilford suggests using Ilfotol (like Photo Flo) to aid even drying but I’ve never done it. Perhaps OP can try that.

worth a shot. Thx!

[ASA1000]

I can only tell you what worked for me: an electric press. Since I got this all my prints are flat. Here’s what I use:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234414353177?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=fMtiXDCEQFK&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=cJD-EcLCQ9e&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

(Other models and sizes exist). Works great— I basically stick the print in between two white mat boards and press it hot. Here’s a good video on how to do this:

https://youtu.be/oG30kHW6cBU


I have a Seal 210 Dry mounting press. ;-)

[willwilson]

Do fiber prints ever dry flat? If my fiber prints did not curl I'd think something was wrong. I don't consider a fiber print by itself complete until dry mounted.

In my experience, RC is the only material that is presentable without dry mounting, even my RC prints have a slight curl.

[Tin Can]

When I received 100's of 8X10 and 11/14 WET prints to sort for my second Print Exchange from all over our world

Some mounted, most not

They were very flat

Drying on a screen is only the first step

[John Layton]

Not perfect...but you can also run two drying lines one above the other, allowing prints to be clipped to both top and bottom edges - effectively holding them under tension from both sides. Another advantage here is that there is no contact of the prints' surfaces while they are drying.

[ASA1000]

When I received 100's of 8X10 and 11/14 WET prints to sort for my second Print Exchange from all over our world

Some mounted, most not

They were very flat

Drying on a screen is only the first step

I'm going to dig out an old print made on the old gallery paper and wash it and dry it...... stay tuned

[ASA1000]

Not perfect...but you can also run two drying lines one above the other, allowing prints to be clipped to both top and bottom edges - effectively holding them under tension from both sides. Another advantage here is that there is no contact of the prints' surfaces while they are drying.

Are you a betting man? ;-). I'm betting that isn't going to work. These prints lift a screen when I put one above. They will buckle a towel if I leave one on top.
....and what if I want to print borderless? No, I'm not giving away any of the expensive paper. I bought it all and I want to use it all.
thx!

[Mark Sampson]

I've been following this and the previous thread, and I admit that I'm stumped. Especially since I did have this issue a while back, and now I don't.
All I can offer now is a) check the alignment of your press (if that's possible) and b)leave your prints in the press longer.
Don't give up (and don't print borderless)!

[cowanw]

Your press is heated, right?

[Kiwi7475]

I have a Seal 210 Dry mounting press. ;-)

So I don’t understand… you’re looking for self-flatness after drying… but that’s a unicorn with FB paper. I appreciate you may be able to mitigate it some with chemicals, perfect squeegeeing, controlled RH to 0.1%, etc , but who cares if you can flatten it with the press? (I’m joking with my rhetoric, but you get the point I hope).

[Tin Can]

Temp is key and you cannot trust the T Meter

Warmup takes at least an hour



Your press is heated, right?

[John Layton]

As I said (about the over-and-under drying line method)...its not perfect - just keeps things from getting too curly before I place the dried prints between sheets of four ply mat board, with a weight on top - where the prints stay for several days.

My alternate to the two-line method is to use one line, and simply flip the prints over while still just a bit damp - before they've had a chance to curl on the bottom edge. Then...between the mat boards and under the weight they go!

[Drew Wiley]

Not all papers are the same. Some curl more than others; it's also related to age and not just ambient humidity. Regardless, ALL fiber-based papers need to be compressed after drying before they're flat enough for drymounting. And even then the whole thing will tend to bend unless stored under pressure, stacked. This is just a fact of life with any kind of thin sheet material with a differential between face and rear. The back responds to humidity differently than the emulsion side.

Washing is an independent question. After mine are washed, I place them face up on fiberglass screens to air dry for at least a full day. Then they are placed under a heavy large sheet of plate glass in small stacks for a number of days until I get around to spotting them and sorting them out for what I think deserves drymounting or not. Then prints and mounting board always need a little pre-drying in the press prior to actual permanent mounting. But if one wants to flatten them in the press between sheets of museum board once they're air-dried, that's fine too. Just don't overdo it with too much heat or time, which can embrittle the emulsion. But that won't guarantee they'll stay flat over time. Depends.

[Jim Jones]

After washing and drying, store prints alternately face up and face down under moderate weight. This keeps them flat until you are ready to mount them.

[ASA1000]

I've been following this and the previous thread, and I admit that I'm stumped. Especially since I did have this issue a while back, and now I don't.
All I can offer now is a) check the alignment of your press (if that's possible) and b)leave your prints in the press longer.
Don't give up (and don't print borderless)!

I've checked the alignment of the press and the temperature across the platten. I've tried this with different paper above and below the print, I've tried a silicone envelope and watercolor paper. Problem is, prints dry too fast. They are dry when they go into the press. I've tried 45 sec 10 sec of air and another 30 all the way up to 6 minutes. I've tried 180 to 230 degrees.... believe me, I've TRIED a LOT!
thx! and I won't quit!!

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh. ... I hope some of you never try to make plywood. If the front and back of a hydroscopic sheet of material have different coefficients of permeability, warping or bowing is a fact of life. And that is INHERENTLY the case with EVERY fiber based emulsion-faced printing paper ever made. You gotta somehow flatten em under compression once dried, and then either mount them onto a flat substrate or keep them stored under a degree of compression.

As far as going borderless, that won't leave you any safe handling edge, or ability to trim off any misaligned drymount tissue properly. And do you want every single image cropped exactly the same proportions? But whatever.

[ASA1000]

Gosh. ... I hope some of you never try to make plywood. If the front and back of a hydroscopic sheet of material have different coefficients of permeability, warping or bowing is a fact of life. And that is INHERENTLY the case with EVERY fiber based emulsion-faced printing paper ever made. You gotta somehow flatten em under compression once dried, and then either mount them onto a flat substrate or keep them stored under a degree of compression.

As far as going borderless, that won't leave you any safe handling edge, or ability to trim off any misaligned drymount tissue properly. And do you want every single image cropped exactly the same proportions? But whatever.

Would you pay the same for a sheet of plywood you had to cut two inches off each side before you used it? And how would that work with 16-inch-on-center trusses?
The prints are drying in 3 hours, 4 hours at 45% humidity. The wrinkles dont 'flatten out' the edges become 'crinkled' Look at the right photo in the post.
I dont have the option of mounting everything. The prints I am making need to be unmounted. And as far as borderless, I don't need to trim any tissue because they are UNMOUNTED.
thx!

[Renato Tonelli]

The discussion on other thread indicated that this 'ripply' curling on the long edge of the paper seems random. It has been very time consuming for me to to flatten some of these prints - up to 20-30 minutes in a dry-mounting press.
I have not encountered this problem with the paper from a new box I started this past weekend (bought in 2022); I have made approx. 40+ prints. My process has not changed - go figure.
A friend of mine suggested that if the problem persisted, I should print on 12x16 paper and trim! He is obviously out of touch with the cost of paper.

[Drew Wiley]

I'd pay for the best plywood relative to the application in mind within realistic budget. And sure I'd trim it. I trim all my prints too. And "Gosh"... I was a buyer for a major construction supplies company for 40 years, prior to retirement, so know darn well the degree sheet goods were adapted to real world applications.

But in your case, is the wrinkled edge always on the same side in relation to how it was being stored to begin with? Being older paper, it appears to be symptomatic of long-term humidity affecting one side much more than the whole sheet, and even impacting the aging of the gelatin differentially. Admittedly, a hard problem to correct and keep corrected, without trimming. I'd simply buy new paper and keep it stored under better/drier conditions. Sorry I don't have a better answer, and just a realistic one.

Tin Can's advice is not universally applicable. Drymount presses can be tested for thermostat accuracy using special monitoring strips, and if necessary, a replacement thermostat or dial installed. Most presses reach temp equilibrium within about half an hour unless the room is quite cold.

[ASA1000]

I'd pay for the best plywood relative to the application in mind within realistic budget. And sure I'd trim it. I trim all my prints too. And "Gosh"... I was a buyer for a major construction supplies company for 40 years, prior to retirement, so know darn well the degree sheet goods were adapted to real world applications.

But in your case, is the wrinkled edge always on the same side in relation to how it was being stored to begin with? Being older paper, it appears to be symptomatic of long-term humidity affecting one side much more than the whole sheet, and even impacting the aging of the gelatin differentially. Admittedly, a hard problem to correct and keep corrected, without trimming. I'd simply buy new paper and keep it stored under better/drier conditions. Sorry I don't have a better answer, and just a realistic one.

Tin Can's advice is not universally applicable. Drymount presses can be tested for thermostat accuracy using special monitoring strips, and if necessary, a replacement thermostat or dial installed. Most presses reach temp equilibrium within about half an hour unless the room is quite cold.

All Brand New paper, bought from BH. (next fox will be from someplace else) And as for the press, I've dried them 4 up, one single, I marked the edges and rotated them... rotated at half time too. It melts MT5 just fine so I dont think it's mechanical in the press.
Humidity is horrendously dry here.... going to be 10% today, everything dries much too fast, and the way it dries off the edge of the print is not equal where the bends are. The paper has to be compressing and then not releasing equally.
I'm going to mess with it some more today. Try one face up with the humidifier blowing on the paper side from below.

I've got some years in construction too, with 800+ houses under my belt and I'll say this: If plywood sheeting doesn't fit on center, something is wrong. No carpenters are going to put up with trimming every sheet. ;-)
Thx!

[Drew Wiley]

Melts MT5 just fine .... That means the press is pretty damn hot - way way too hot for flattening purposes. You're basically cooking them. Flattening under heat should be limited to about 30 seconds at around 200F maximum between two sheet or pre-dried museum board. MT5 melts around 240F! And silicone release paper should never be used directly against an emulsion.

As per plywood, I wasn't referring to general carpentry. I was involved with a pro clientele doing a lot of fancy "book matching" work, truly seamless work involving very expensive plys and hardwoods - major historical restorations, extremely expensive projects, both new and remodel. The big legal complex remodel which held an installation of a number of my large color prints after it was completed (with matching hardwood frames I milled myself), used over 500 sheets of maple ply for just the ceiling, all of them wonderfully bended and "Origami" fitted to look like 3D waves of the sea, way up above a big indoor/outdoor Koi pond. Really Zen.

But even general residential construction framing takes on different connotations here in earthquake country, and plys themselves often are placed in the context of shear values. Special sizes come into play. Local codes can also vary by neighborhood, depending on wildfire risk assessment. It's not like inland CA, with its quickie tract homes and ubiquitous code violations. I'd imagine Colorado is also going go have go do some deep soul searching concerning fire risk, as suburbanization spreads into drought-stricken forest. But this year, it's been more extreme rain and snow that's been the problem here. Wonder how many fallen trees and mudslides I'll have to drive around to just get to a hiking trail this afternoon?

[John Layton]

...if 2x4's/2x6's get any thinner there won't be any center!

[Drew Wiley]

That's what certified ratings and code enforcement is for, John. Nearly everything sold through big box and home center chains is arbitrarily marketed and often code illegal. I don't know what kind of lumber residential framing involves in New England - perhaps white pine? Here in NorCal its traditionally been Douglas fir. SoCal uses a lot of inferior hemlock or Ponderosa pine.

Certified dimensions haven't changed as long as I've been alive (I'm now 73); and legit lumberyards still carry the real deal. And now high quality, dimensionally stable engineered strand and ply composites are taking over. Even my tallest enlarger column is an over-laminated epoxy-impregnated, phenolic glue 6X6 strand beam, more dimensionally stable than structural steel. Serious darkroom equip reinforcement makes a lot of sense when one lives just a few blocks away from an infamous earthquake fault.

[bmikiten]

Nearly everything sold through big box and home center chains is arbitrarily marketed and often code illegal.

Code illegal? Everything I see is stamped and compliant. If you are referring to structural members, building codes specify (in each locality) what should be used but even then, unless you are dealing with earthquake or span issues, I'm not aware of any code being violated by HD, Lowes, etc. Please explain. (I held GC and specialty licenses in 23 states but never heard this one). Architectural specs are pretty clear on what can and can't be used. Just wondering....

[Drew Wiley]

Violations are rampant. False labeling abundant. Inferior product routine. Selection preposterous. Even the gun nails sold generally aren't legally rated. And Texas or Florida standards? - well, I won't even discuss that, since this thread is already drifting (my fault). So this is not the place to explain in detail, though I certainly have the background to do so. But picking on my own Sate, here in CA, it's routine for housing tracts inland to use non-compliant flooring underlayment for siding and roofing applications, illegally. Just about every kind of "inspection" in that part of the world involves bribes, along with foolishness in location, just like our current bottomland flooding disasters make all too apparent. The company I represented wouldn't even sell to those kinds of developers, because those outfits are expert at cheating everyone, including their suppliers.

What I tried to point out on this particular thread was simply the plywood analogy. If there's some kind of expansion/contraction differential one side versus the other, warpage is inevitable unless that material is pinned down. And in this case, it's hard to say if the chronic problem is humidity related, per perhaps improper print paper storage at some point in time; or if that is being exacerbated by too much press heat (an issue I once learned about the hard way, when my own press thermostat spring needed readjustment). Dunno.

[faberryman]

I think the OP needs to do a YouTube of his complete process so we can see exactly what he is doing because apparently no one has encountered the same problem, and there are decades of experience on the board. We must be missing something from the descriptions, unless as someone suggested it is just a bad box of paper. As I recall, the OP was consulting with Ilford about the problem, but I don't think we heard what Ilford had to say.

[Drew Wiley]

Again, the lumber analogy. The hardwoods we sold were mainly related to contractors taking those lengths, and milling them for sake of pinned-down assembly, like cabinet frames or nailed on wall mouldings. Even the kiln-dried selection we sold had issues at the ends, because there was a temp and humidity differential between the aisles of the warehouse, and the metal walls at the distal end of the lengths. Because I had a huge employee discount, I bought my own picture framing stock there, but then had to often cull a bit of the overall length subject to warpage. Ideally, I would have gone to a hardwood specialty supplier a few miles away instead, which stored their entire inventory at consistent humidity; but it wasn't cost or time effective for me to do so.

Application of analogy : most printing paper is in a box with an inner unsealed plastic bag. So it's hypothetically better protected one end more than another. And there have been a few cases in my own experience over the years where older darkroom paper was not stored properly, and even the tape on the outer box broken, and I experienced somewhat the same kind of issue the poster has. But I just trimmed it off.

That kind of poor storage in distribution warehousing issue was in fact the main cause for the decline of Cibachrome in this country. Ciba is polyester, not paper of course, so the symptom was not edge wrinkling, but premature color crossover at the more atmospheric susceptible edge, along with frequent physical damage like dent marks.

[bob carnie]

I think the OP needs to do a YouTube of his complete process so we can see exactly what he is doing because apparently no one has encountered the same problem, and there are decades of experience on the board. We must be missing something from the descriptions, unless as someone suggested it is just a bad box of paper. As I recall, the OP was consulting with Ilford about the problem, but I don't think we heard what Ilford had to say.

The OP mentions in Post 30 that it is horrendously dry , under 10%... In Canada the humidity drops in the winter drastically and when I was racking up a lot of days printing in dry rooms I had the exact problem he/she is having in our case we lost a day of printing. I am printing these last two weeks large day runs of silver prints.. It is dry outside but inside our building I have cranked up the humidity above 50 percent in the drying area and then take the prints directly to the hot press so there is not time to start drying out. We are getting flat prints, not RC flat but fibre base is never RC flat.
When printing multiple register prints in Gum over palladium we have the same issues with paper and we pre shrink and keep the rooms above 50% its just the nature of the beast. Nov 16 the humidifiers come on here in Toronto and April 16 the dehumidiers are needed.

[ASA1000]

Yet another Update
Yesterday I dug out some 30-year-old fiber prints I made on Ilford Gallery paper. I wet one in a try with running water for 30 minutes, blotted the water off it and laid it out on the screen.It dried like this 237279

Then I took one of my recent Ilford MGFB paper prints and did the same.237278

You can see the wrinkle in the new paper is much more severe and along one edge where as the old paper wrinkled more universally on all edges. Humidity was 28 in the room and 70-deg.
One thing I am finding is when I re-wet a finished print (before flattening in the press) and dry it for a second time on the screen again, it seems to dry a little less severely wrinkled. I'll be printing again next week so I will explore this more.

As far as press temperature, I just used MT5 as an old time reference. In the past (in my darkroom in Santa Fe) I would do MT5 at 215 and I would flatten at 180-degrees for 45 seconds, open then press, air it out, and give it another 30 sec. I am using a heavy acid free watercolor paper on top and below the print for flattening.... but the problem here, in Colorado, is prints are totally dry when I take them off the screen in 3 hours. That's why I was talking about raining the humidifier down directly on the prints to slow it up.... but that hasn't worked.

And I'm not ruling out bad paper storage before it gets to me. I've been buying from BH and I've had some outdated selenium and some outdated photoflo I got from them and when they replaced it I got more outdated stuff, so who knows what is going on with them. The fact that there is no real moisture barrier in the paper box could also be an issue. I'll do a process video next week.

....and Drew, that project sounded pretty cool! Me, I was building block and stucco houses in Florida!

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I sure don't want to detract from B&H because they have served me well for decades. But in more recent years, FB Graded Galerie has fallen out of popularity, and gotten hard to find, and when a box of 16X20 Gr3 was on hand at B&H it arrived to me looking like a geriatric box indeed. I seldom use this paper, but needed something cold toned when both Polygrade V and Kentmere Fineprint dried up, prior to current Classic Cooltone. The local camera store had multiple boxes of Galerie graded on hand in 11X14; but those were so ridiculously outdated that petrified dinosaur dung would probably need to be swept off the boxes. And yes, excess waviness on the leading edge of the paper, facing the opening in the inner plastic bag, in that old box I received from B&H, was something I attributed to it probably having been stored in some remote corner of the warehouse for way too long under less than ideal humidity conditions. Fortunately, the prints came out fine; but I alway do leave margins and trim afterwards.

[ASA1000]

[QUOTE=Drew Wiley;1676020]... And yes, excess waviness on the leading edge of the paper, facing the opening in the inner plastic bag, /QUOTE]

I had thought that too, with 8x10 paper, which curls on the narrow side but the 11x14's long side is my problem edge and that's not facing the opening in the inner bag. and the two boxes of 11x14 I've been into so far were both ordered months apart and the batch numbers are way different on the back. Another interesting thing to me, at least, is that this new MGFB paper can sit in a try for (so far) 3 days and the emulsion is still stuck like glue to the paper. In my past experience the emulsion would float off in 3 days. Maybe that's because there are now 3 emulsion layers in MG? I dunnknow, but all this 'new and improved' stuff is sure hard to make work! ;-). Thx!

[Drew Wiley]

The nature of the gelatin on some of the newer MG Ilford papers in an intriguing question. MG Classic and Cooltone have a shinier gelatin which behaves differently from the surface on MGWT or old MGIV. It somewhat resembles the shiny gelatin on the old EMaks graded paper I'm still printing on, alleged to be pig rather than bovine derived, and also fussy (but beautiful). I've never contacted Ilford with a question about this. I did have a more serious issue with early batches of these new papers where seeming voids or freckles in outers sheets in contact with the liner bags seems to have been due to contamination on those bags themselves. I haven't had the same problem recently.

Cooltone and MGWT do not to be thoroughly immersed and agitated in each respective tray bath exceptionally quickly and evenly compared to other papers, or you might get perceptible unevenness or streaks in highlight areas like skies. EMaks is even fussier in this respect. Nonetheless, the tonal response of these newer papers perform way better
better in terms of linearity and toning qualities than MGIV ever did. But MGWT and Bergger VC's (which Harman also makes) don't have the same issues, but, of course, also carry a higher price.

I'm still a bit mystified about the wrinkling problem per se. So far I've only experienced that on really old papers - either old inventory of Galerie graded or really old leftovers in my own lab, left inside paper safes, or in partially used sleeves up on a shelf. The topic of gelatin emulsions in relation to this is very complex, and way over my head. But I do know that these gelatin layers can age differentially if unevenly exposed to atmospheric conditions over a period of time, and hence exaggerate the curling effect between emulsion side and paper substrate side. Ironically, people who hand coat watercolor papers with Pt/Pd etc often like a "deckle edge" full perimeter - but that's an entirely different look. It's horrendous where glossy gelatin is involved.

[Tin Can]

Way back in modern Catholic art school 25 years ago

The Print Maker had the young women and all fancy paper was torn, never cut

Many of us posed naked when the model canceled

I am proud to say my penis did not drip, like the Pro, that freaked us all...

Prints are difficult

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50898266648_0b4258b238_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/tPb1TZT0jt)LIE HATE 1997 2 of 6 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/tPb1TZT0jt) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[ASA1000]

My wife was ironing and commented how shirts need to be wetter here in Colorado where she irons them, than in Florida, to get them flat. Hmmmm.......
I had tried putting prints in the press while still wet to the touch but, as expected, they stuck to the overlay so I moved away from that theory. That may have been the wrong move. Yesterday with 27% humidity in the basement, I went back to putting prints that were less dry in the press. My old procedure was 45 seconds at 180, then open the press, shake the cover paper to let the moisture out and then close the press for another 30 sec. I tried different shorter times and it turns out that if I set my timer for 2 hours and 30 minutes after I put the print on the screen, and take it to the press at 2.5 hours and do the 45 and 30 procedure, and then put the print between 1/4-inch glass to cool, the edges look NORMAL! I've got 4 in a row so far! I have a video, you can see how the long edges dry differently, but if I get them in the press before they get TOO DRY I can make them flat. I'll try to post the video this evening. If this procedure continues to work (I'm still not ruling out inconsistent paper) but if it continues to work, this will mean I have flat prints in two and a half hours! That would be a DOUBLE WIN!.... could be.... maybe.

[ASA1000]

Tin Can..., you sick basstard... LOL!!

[Mark Sampson]

ASA1000, take the success. Glad you could find an answer; photography is full of frustrations, and that one has been particularly annoying.
"Endeavor to persevere"!

[Tin Can]

I guess you have not been to art school

We all get naked, that's the fun part

First day first hour of a 5 hour body movement class in SAIC Grad School

I was quickly naked and nobody else was

I had been assigned by another student to pose climbing MT Everest

I was frozen face down nude

This was 25 years ago, I miss art school

Do you know the famous reference?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50792697482_9532033308_c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/0vYb5T5K50)AJ Nude Decending Stairs (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/0vYb5T5K50) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr




Tin Can..., you sick basstard... LOL!!

[ASA1000]

Yes I know it: 'When we dont learn from our mistakes we are destined to repeat them'............. that one?

[ASA1000]

Here's a video I put on my You Tube Channel about the process I use and my way of figuring this out:


https://youtu.be/NTkqgG-NuWU

[Greg]

My darkroom has a pretty much constant humidity level of around 50%. I dry my FB prints on screens face down overnight and they pretty much always have some curl to them. Then I usually place four of them in multiple layers between sheets of 2 ply archival board. Put them in my Seal dry mount press in the evening with the temperature set at 180 degrees. Once the press gets up to 180 degrees, I turn it off and leave the prints in the press overnight. Come the next day, the prints are just plain flat.... QED