Print Washer - medium and super size

[bob carnie]

Hi Folks

Has anyone here made a vertical print washer , trying to purchase in 2023 is almost impossible. I am interested in two sizes , 20 x 24 six slot to sit in sink and also 34 x 44 inch floor model with 6 slots. I am interested in this for my tech guy to try and if there is some info I would love to hear.

regards

Bob

[Fred L]

following, not cuz I plan to build, but always curious about the the process of fabricating a washer. also guessing cachet eco wash is no longer available.

wondering if instead of the humongous floor washer (which will weight a tonne), would washing in trays work or is the risk of print damage from lifting and handling, too great

[bob carnie]

following, not cuz I plan to build, but always curious about the the process of fabricating a washer. also guessing cachet eco wash is no longer available.

wondering if instead of the humongous floor washer (which will weight a tonne), would washing in trays work or is the risk of print damage from lifting and handling, too great

I saw a video of Clyde Butchers printer making 30 x 40 murals and he had a floor model which would be perfect for me , six slots floor drain. good to go. I have found that with 30 x 40 murals I cannot do more than 12 final prints off 4 negs in a day so a six slot holding the prints back to back would be perfect for me.

[bob carnie]

I saw a video of Clyde Butchers printer making 30 x 40 murals and he had a floor model which would be perfect for me , six slots floor drain. good to go. I have found that with 30 x 40 murals I cannot do more than 12 final prints off 4 negs in a day so a six slot holding the prints back to back would be perfect for me.

I already do wash in super size trays but it is extremely time challenging and wastes a ton of water .

[L&Scape]

I ordered 20x24 archival washer with 12 slots from Under Red Light from Ukraine. It took a while to make, but the quality is really good. Pricey + pricey shipping, but superiour quality. Check fb.

[bob carnie]

I ordered 20x24 archival washer with 12 slots from Under Red Light from Ukraine. It took a while to make, but the quality is really good. Pricey + pricey shipping, but superiour quality. Check fb.

We saw this guy in Ukraine as well , I think the price of shipping would be outrageous but we are going to give a try.

[Tin Can]

How about a custom fish tank maker

They are local

[Oren Grad]

The Versalab washer is a pretty simple design - perhaps someone can custom-build a larger version of that for you.

[bob carnie]

How about a custom fish tank maker

They are local

This is the route I probably go, I. made my big sinks out of heavy duty plastic, I am looking for people here who may have design ideas and practical advice. but your right a fish tank maker is probably the right person for the really big one I need.

[ic-racer]

I use a Nova 20x24.
There is not much to it. The water comes in the bottom through the six little holes, then it spills over the top and is collected by the black tube.

The separators are light fixture diffusers. They even say that is what they are in the user's manual.

Apparently Nova washers are still available new. https://www.fotoimpex.com/darkroom/nova-washmaster-eco-50x60-cm-20x24.html

236725

[interneg]

You might want to look at acrylic prismatic diffusion material for the dividers.

[Drew Wiley]

Hi Bob. A 30X40 slot washer is a pretty big fish tank, and is going to need a lot of reinforcement. I thought we discussed this before. I prefer to wash prints that size in a big flat washer with a Kodak tray siphon instead. My 20X24 7-slot washer took me an afternoon to make using leftover 1/8" and 1/4" Acrylite FF sheeting. Just basic plexi solvent welding together. It's vital to have very straight truly square edges to all the pieces, either edge-trimmed with a straight Formica bit on a router table, or preferably cut with a Festool rail saw and plastic blade in the first place. You take your chances with conventional table saws. High-end programmable panel saws can also do it well. I also made 16X20 X 11X14 versions. My septums are 1/8" flat acrylic, but have tiny hemispherical true silicone cabinet door bumpers on them to keep the paper from sticking (don't use vinyl bumpers). These work using both siphon and bottom drain, and seem more water-efficient than the commercial models I've seen. Forget an aeration feature producing bubble; that sound counterproductive to me. Food coloring can be used for circulation and water change testing.

[Michael R]

If you have deep pockets: http://kienzle-phototechnik.de/home_english/print_washer/print_washer.html

[Mark Sampson]

I use an 11x14 washer made of stainless steel, made c.1989 by a company called Darkroom Aids. DA is long gone; I heard later that the washer was available from the designer, under the name Rosy Products (or similar?). A stainless tank might be superior to acrylic.

[Fred L]

looks like Rosyproducts.com is gone. webpage jumps to other sites.

I think Mark has a good point about stainless washers. I have an 11x14 Darkroom Aids (?) washer with plastic dividers (all connected in some basket type lifter deal). This might be easier to make/fabricate, and would definitely be much lighter than acrylic.

[malexand]

Hi Bob. A 30X40 slot washer is a pretty big fish tank, and is going to need a lot of reinforcement. I thought we discussed this before. I prefer to wash prints that size in a big flat washer with a Kodak tray siphon instead. My 20X24 7-slot washer took me an afternoon to make using leftover 1/8" and 1/4" Acrylite FF sheeting. Just basic plexi solvent welding together. It's vital to have very straight truly square edges to all the pieces, either edge-trimmed with a straight Formica bit on a router table, or preferably cut with a Festool rail saw and plastic blade in the first place. You take your chances with conventional table saws. High-end programmable panel saws can also do it well. I also made 16X20 X 11X14 versions. My septums are 1/8" flat acrylic, but have tiny hemispherical true silicone cabinet door bumpers on them to keep the paper from sticking (don't use vinyl bumpers). These work using both siphon and bottom drain, and seem more water-efficient than the commercial models I've seen. Forget an aeration feature producing bubble; that sound counterproductive to me. Food coloring can be used for circulation and water change testing.

I made a decent 11x14 washer from 1/4" plexi with a less than professional grade table saw. 2 chambers each able to hold 4 prints comfortably with dividers, water from first cascades into the next. As the cuts and joints were less than precise, I reinforced the outer joints by gluing aluminum angle stock over them. Still holding together after 20 years!
I was planning on building a larger one with similar methods, but as luck happens, found a 20x24 on craigslist that I coudln't refuse. just gotta find space to install it now!

[John Layton]

Kind of thinking out loud here...but what about taking that huge six-slot tank and tipping it on its side...perhaps elevated a bit on one end - so that the water pressure could remain at reasonable levels? The lower end of this tank could have a number of valves located across the ends of each chamber...which would be closed for filling and opened (and possible adjusted for flow rates) for washing? Hmmm...

[Tin Can]

I bought my used Rosy Products 11X14 washer in perfect condition for $10

but did not buy from same seller his overpriced gear

I have mine at the low end of my 7ft Rosy SinK also bought cheap from somebody

I can take it apart and carry it solo easily









I use an 11x14 washer made of stainless steel, made c.1989 by a company called Darkroom Aids. DA is long gone; I heard later that the washer was available from the designer, under the name Rosy Products (or similar?). A stainless tank might be superior to acrylic.

[Tin Can]

There was a member here that made really big prints

He made a wood tray, maybe 4X8 ft that had a slight tilting or rocker motion

He used one tray, filled by 5 gallon buckets

Tilting for agitation

Then drained into buckets from a large gate

He worked fast using the one large tray

[Todd Barlow]

I have built a few in the past, here is the link to my post here on APUG. It is the 11th post.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/anyone-ever-fabricate-archival-print-washer.169744/

There are polyetheylene and polypropylene tank makers in the US that offer a lighter solution than the fish tanks and also provide vertical walls.
20x24"
If a 20x24 print can stand on the 20" side there is a 24"L x 30"H x 4"D. The issue with standing on the 24" side is that the divider holders / seperators will take up some of the 24" tank dimension so the 24" print could be compromised.
34x44"
VersaLab sells some sort of adaptor to allow a 20x24 print to be used in a 16x20 washer, not sure how it works but if someone has positive experience maybe the same approach can be used for your 34x44 need.

All the best

Todd

[John Layton]

Here's one of my two large trays (this one being for 30x40's, the other for 40x60's) showing the "waste gate" side. Single tray system...filled from tubs on the left, which get pushed underneath empty then back when filled from the gate...works great!

236786

[bob carnie]

Here's one of my two large trays (this one being for 30x40's, the other for 40x60's) showing the "waste gate" side. Single tray system...filled from tubs on the left, which get pushed underneath empty then back when filled from the gate...works great!

236786

Thats pretty slick unit John, I usually do about 12 murals a day so washing horizontally is a PIA for me, but your sink is a beauty.

[Oren Grad]

VersaLab sells some sort of adaptor to allow a 20x24 print to be used in a 16x20 washer, not sure how it works but if someone has positive experience maybe the same approach can be used for your 34x44 need.

This is how Versalab describes the adaptor:

20 x 24 ADAPTER for 16 x20 Washer

As described above our washers have a "print basket" which is a separate assembly that sits in the tank of the washer to hold prints in the proper position. The 20x24 adapter is a replacement print basket for the 16 x20 model only. It has four slots and holds four 20 x 24 prints in a "U" shape (quite large radius and perfectly harmless) emulsion side in (great wash that way).

Not sure this is what Bob has in mind. Despite their reassurances, I'd be worried about the U shape being "perfectly harmless", especially if there's any awkwardness in loading or unloading. I should add, I have both the 11x14 and 16x20 Versalab washers and those work fine for their specified sizes.

[Michael R]

Bob, I assume you can expense this, right? Maybe in that case a Kienzle would be affordable. Not sure what your budget is, but I have to wonder if it really makes sense in the end to screw around with DIY.

[Duolab123]

Biggest I have is 12 slot 16x20 that will wash 6 20x24s as well.

I would find a stainless shop. I had a huge stainless Calumet rocking print washer, built like a tank, I got tired of it, scrapped it. I put small recirculation pumps on my acrylic slot washers, I fill it up turn on the pumps, drop rinsed prints in. I change the water 3 or 4 times, run each cycle 10 to 20 minutes.

My dream would be a washer that operates like a dish washer, cold water obviously, would need a rack.

Slot print washers use to much water, inadequate agitation.

MHOFWIW, Mike

[bob carnie]

Bob, I assume you can expense this, right? Maybe in that case a Kienzle would be affordable. Not sure what your budget is, but I have to wonder if it really makes sense in the end to screw around with DIY.

Bottom line Michael yes I can expense this but I must say I did make my oversize plexi trays which have served me very well for years, 33 x 44 inch and 44 x 55 inch, but I think I need to talk with a fish tank person who works with big plexi. I ultimately am
wanting 33 x 44 inch capability - 6 slots which means I can wash 12 murals at a time. - the video of the dude in florida gives me lots of hope this is quite feasable.

[Peter De Smidt]

Another option: expanded PVC sheets. You can buy big sheets for much less than translucent materials. I made a mailbox out of it using PVC cement, and it's held up great. A local woodworker should be able to make one for you. It's thick enough so you could cut slots on the inside short walls that you could slide thin plastic dividers into. It drills and cuts like soft wood, but it glues like PVC, i.e. you can solvent weld it.

Example: https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/siding/trim-boards/royal-reg-building-products-1-2-x-4-x-8-white-pvc-panel/1429329/p-1510903720728-c-13411.htm?tid=ad3749e5-09e0-45ad-975f-35fb8af46715&ipos=14&exp=false

For a really big washer, I'd put ribs on the outside to increase strength. Or make a waterproof plywood "sleeve"...

Or make a dividing insert for: https://www.plastic-mart.com/category/54/polyethylene-rectangle-tanks

For big murals, you might want to have a vertical tray for each print, because dealing with such a large piece of wet paper could be a real problem, i.e. stretching, tearing.....You could have someone build frames from the PVC material with plastic window screens attached. The back of the print would go against the screen, and the whole frame could be slide into the washer, maybe at an angle to keep the print's back resting on the screen....

[Drew Wiley]

Michael - those Kienzle tanks are in centimeter sizes. Bob is asking about a 30x40 INCH print size washer; and that kind of thing would have to be far more solidly built and reinforced.

PVC and Sintra sheeting is not stiff enough for that kind of vertical application, although it could be used for a secondary reinforcing jacket. All this is just basic ABC's plastic fabrication. I've worked with all kinds of plastics in my own shop; but I'm well equipped for it. Anything really big should be done locally, due the risk of acrylic fracture when shipping. And stronger polycarbonate can't be solvent welded.

If a plywood outer housing is used, it should be impregnated with marine epoxy, and merely act as a reinforcing perimeter to a fully plastic interior.
Or one could begin by contacting a manufacturer of large home aquariums - on the pricey side, but a possibility at least. A DIY shop version would probably cost only around 5% as much, not factoring equipment expense. Plexi is fairly expensive at the moment; but plastics shops will discount scratched sheets and random scraps. For anything this big, you'd need 1/4 inch thickness for the outer walls themselves.

People work in even greater thicknesses all the time, especially outfits which specialize in security plastics for banks, cashier stations, etc. The more important aspect is to build the smaller prototype first, to test for its design efficiency, before scaling up.

Stainless fabrication? Now that would cost you a small fortune, though you could compromise and use 300-grade stainless for just the outer retaining jacket, and relatively thin plastic for all the insides. I won't go into stainless/ply laminates - just too complicated for this thread.

One significant supply source for an effective outer - either stainless or poly plastic - would be a custom maker of livestock and dairy troughs. And
those things do need to be solid and free-standing.

[Michael R]

The Kienzle tanks go up to 80x110 cm so 30"x40" would fit. Their stuff is top notch. Like I said earlier, not cheap - but Bob isn't simply a hobbyist. He needs reliable results for paying customers. Just pointing it out as a potential option.

I agree with you something that big custom made of stainless could be very pricey. One could contact California Stainless to see what such a thing would cost, but it might be cheaper for Bob to hire me to stand there all day with a hose LOL. On the other hand they are also the distributor for Sebastian Darkroom Products (PVC sinks, washers etc.). Perhaps a Sebastian PVC fab would be price competitive with a fish tank guy. I don't know. Just throwing out ideas.

The cost is in the complexity of it being an effective "automatic" washer. Other than that it's just a plastic box with a few dividers and a drain, and doesn't need to be pretty. You could buy the pieces pre-cut by any number of the online plastic outfits.


Michael - those Kienzle tanks are in centimeter sizes. Bob is asking about a 30x40 INCH print size washer; and that kind of thing would have to be far more solidly built and reinforced.

PVC and Sintra sheeting is not stiff enough for that kind of vertical application, although it could be used for a secondary reinforcing jacket. All this is just basic ABC's plastic fabrication. I've worked with all kinds of plastics in my own shop; but I'm well equipped for it. Anything really big should be done locally, due the risk of acrylic fracture when shipping. And stronger polycarbonate can't be solvent welded.

If a plywood outer housing is used, it should be impregnated with marine epoxy, and merely act as a reinforcing perimeter to a fully plastic interior.
Or one could begin by contacting a manufacturer of large home aquariums - on the pricey side, but a possibility at least. A DIY shop version would probably cost only around 5% as much, not factoring equipment expense. Plexi is fairly expensive at the moment; but plastics shops will discount scratched sheets and random scraps. For anything this big, you'd need 1/4 inch thickness for the outer walls themselves.

People work in even greater thicknesses all the time, especially outfits which specialize in security plastics for banks, cashier stations, etc. The more important aspect is to build the smaller prototype first, to test for its design efficiency, before scaling up.

Stainless fabrication? Now that would cost you a small fortune, though you could compromise and use 300-grade stainless for just the outer retaining jacket, and relatively thin plastic for all the insides. I won't go into stainless/ply laminates - just too complicated for this thread.

One significant supply source for an effective outer - either stainless or poly plastic - would be a custom maker of livestock and dairy troughs. And
those things do need to be solid and free-standing.

[Tin Can]

When Rosy Products of Michigan stopped making Darkroom sinks he made big SS tanks for dogs and commercial kitchens

Any plastic is crap and will fail

Find industrial SS fabricatore

near your location

This is just one and not the right one https://www.vevor.com/promotion/diy-projects-special-563.html

Stress the sink will always be full of water and will need a drain at least

[Duolab123]

Dip and dunk? Four or five separate individual slots? Probably impractical, but???

[John Layton]

I keep coming back to the idea of a large, multi-slot tank...maybe laying flat in a larger tub which would itself be filled with water to provide buoyancy to the entire structure so stresses would be alleviated somewhat - and after tipping the tank up in the tub to load the prints (tub deep enough to still cover the tank to facilitate loading) the tank would be lowered and a directed flow of water would then be introduced into one side of the tank - with the other (waste) end gasketed and valved so that wash water would flow outside of the system and into another drain.

The footprint of the above (horizontal) system would be larger than a vertical one, but you'd still have the efficiency of being able to handle multiple prints at once.

Hmmm...maybe I'll draw a few pictures.

[bob carnie]

Obviously a lot of very good ideas here, I do like the idea of plastic fabrication with exterior brackets.... Listen if Scotty could build a fish tank within Enterprise to hold a huge whale I do not think it is so impractical for Bobby to have a 33 x 44 inch vertical slot washer made.

[Tin Can]

I assume you are first floor with no basement

[ic-racer]

tanks for dogs

That reminded me of the place we wash our dog. They have deep tile lined bays. In fact fancier than my bathroom at home.

I wonder if a vertical tank constructed of masonry with grouted tile interior would be easier to construct than glass or plastic. Of course it would be a permanent fixture.
The dividers would be plastic.

236840

[John Layton]

Ha! Reminds my freshman dorm at U. of Rochester - when a (3rd) floor mate got a waterbed and the rest of us noted what fun he was having cavorting around on this with his new-found female friends (he had a list, complete with names, columns, and check-marks, posted on his door - no kidding!). Well, it wasn't before long that most of us followed suit (well, at least with the water beds - but forever hopeful!) - and our "dorm mother" (very schoolmarmish lady in her 70's) hit the ceiling!

[mbuonocore]

Hey Bob,

Alexander Khirtikov makes custom washers. They look great, but I've never had a chance to see one up close.

https://lavky.com/underredlight/

He posts on Instagram under the name underredlight. I don't know how he's still shipping out of Ukraine, but it looks like he manages. Full credit for that.

I haven't had good luck on the second hand market with print washers, particularly the bigger ones. Lots have damage and are on their last legs. You know as well as anyone that they're a huge pain to move around, and get beat up in the process.

Good luck!

Marco

[neil poulsen]

"Medium" and "super size" for me are 11x14 and 16x20. I have a Versalab purchased new for the former, and a Kostiner that I was given free for the latter.

As I recall, it's possible wash 20x24 prints in a Versalab 16x20 by folding them over and using two slots for each print.

[bob carnie]

I assume you are first floor with no basement

Yes with floor drain but very good point

[Drew Wiley]

Fiberglassed outer tanks are also relatively easy to make, and can be quite strong, but would not be transparent-walled like acrylic (nor would stainless). I don't know why transparency would really be important anyway. Fiberglass construction over plywood would be more affordable than either stainless fabrication or using thick acrylic sheeting on large scale.

[bob carnie]

Fiberglassed outer tanks are also relatively easy to make, and can be quite strong, but would not be transparent-walled like acrylic (nor would stainless). I don't know why transparency would really be important anyway. Fiberglass construction over plywood would be more affordable than either stainless fabrication or using thick acrylic sheeting on large scale.

Yes these tanks definately do not need to be transparent , just rugged design.

[Drew Wiley]

That's what worries me about a narrowish tall equivalent to an ordinary acrylic slot washer design. Acrylic septums etc are fine inside. But I'd want something a lot more robust for the outer jacket itself, and not risky to transport like acrylic. If I were to make one of these myself, I'd pickle a plywood box with penetrating marine epoxy, then line it with fiberglass and resin. (Actually, I wouldn't, since I've been exposed enough already to both epoxies and fiberglass resins over the years already - they're distinctly unhealthy to work with, especially indoors). Then you figure out a removable inner cage for your dividers, septums, siphon system, valves etc. Make a little fomecore model first, or at least good sketches, if you farm it out to a local shop.

[Michael R]

Oh here we go with the wood boxes with 15 layers of alternating marine impregnated pregnancy fibreglass and epoxied carbon fiber with a quark-gluon plasma core and inner lining of ceramic-coated aircraft carrier hull plates

[Drew Wiley]

Your own idea how to do it, Michael? Recycled Starbucks cups compressed in a wildflower press? I've actually made a number of very efficient print washers, and done them all on a very reasonable budget. But I admit I can't just go to a frozen lake edge like there in northern climes, saw apart some ice blocks, and hope the stack of them doesn't thaw apart before the print washing is done. And that might go kinda slow in cold water. Just a few days ago I did watch a Three Stooges episode where they tried to run an ice truck business.

[Duolab123]

Obviously a lot of very good ideas here, I do like the idea of plastic fabrication with exterior brackets.... Listen if Scotty could build a fish tank within Enterprise to hold a huge whale I do not think it is so impractical for Bobby to have a 33 x 44 inch vertical slot washer made.

Transparent Aluminum!!

[Michael R]

I’ve never seen a wildflower press, but I’ve occasionally watched the hydraulic press channel. But yeah you’re probably right about Starbucks cups. Is suspect you could build a stronger tank out of compressed McDonalds ice cream than Starbucks cups. The worst cups are Tim Horton’s, and the cups are the best thing on their menu. I don’t think there are Tim Horton’s in California but I could be wrong. Anyway don’t go there.


Your own idea how to do it, Michael? Recycled Starbucks cups compressed in a wildflower press? I've actually made a number of very efficient print washers, and done them all on a very reasonable budget. But I admit I can't just go to a frozen lake edge like there in northern climes, saw apart some ice blocks, and hope the stack of them doesn't thaw apart before the print washing is done. And that might go kinda slow in cold water. Just a few days ago I did watch a Three Stooges episode where they tried to run an ice truck business.

[Tin Can]

Get a quote for stainless steel fabricator

Quotes are free

I was a fabricator

I always ordered metal exactly to size delivered to factory floor from McMaster

Then I welded

[Drew Wiley]

McMaster? Most expensive place imaginable for a real stainless fabricator. Yes, I use McMaster for small quantities of such things. But around here, just like other major industrial hubs, their are entire huge warehouses filled with all kinds of aluminum, including aerospace varieties.

[Tin Can]

We had a contract with McMaster to supply anything and everything to our Fortune 400, Tier 1, 1 million sq ft, air-conditioned factory that began making OE Model T parts.



Have fun


McMaster
McMaster? Most expensive place imaginable for a real stainless fabricator. Yes, I use McMaster for small quantities of such things. But around here, just like other major industrial hubs, their are entire huge warehouses filled with all kinds of aluminum, including aerospace varieties.

[Michael R]

If one is determined to inquire about stainless I’d still suggest asking California Stainless since they are at least familiar with darkroom fabrication, and as I mentioned earlier they are the distributor for Sebastian Darkroom - that outfit makes all kinds of sinks etc. out of various materials including PVC, and it’s all stuff built for heavy use.

[Tin Can]

Duh!

https://www.calstainless.com/



If one is determined to inquire about stainless I’d still suggest asking California Stainless since they are at least familiar with darkroom fabrication, and as I mentioned earlier they are the distributor for Sebastian Darkroom - that outfit makes all kinds of sinks etc. out of various materials including PVC, and it’s all stuff built for heavy use.

[Drew Wiley]

Here they make Teslas and Space-X rockets etc etc, not Model T parts. Any decent sheet metal shop can cut, bend, weld, and finish a basic stainless tank project, and will have their own inventory of sheeting on hand. That itself ain't rocket science. But I wonder if they ever did launch the first 3d printed booster rocket yet? They scrubbed it last week due to some kind of leak.

[Tin Can]

topper

[faberryman]

You probably don't need rocket booster fabrication materials and technology to build a print washer.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, Michael implied one does need that. I was content with advising fiberglass clad plywood. But in Michael's defense, anything hydraulic pressed or 3d printed to withstand corrosive Starbucks coffee would handle darkroom chem easily. Common wash water is simple by comparison. Even my own stomach lining won't handle much Starbucks. I prefer something less acidic like Kona.

Had to dig past a bunch of big 316 stainless dev trays yesterday, trying to get to my spare bundles of asphalt roof shingles up on a loft.

[Michael R]

I implied no such thing. I’m just playing along. I think acrylic is fine. Like anything else it just needs to be built properly for the purpose.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh, never show your hand, Michael. You won't draw an audience that way. But if acrylic is "just fine" for something as big as a 30X40-plus inch slot washer, how thick do you think those outer acrylic walls at least have to be? Maybe 3/8 inch thick, maybe 1/2 inch. And realistically, you're talking about two sheet of that, about $600 to $800 worth prior to fabrication expense, plus the inner thinner sheet requirements, several hundred more for materials only, easily $1000 for sheet expense alone, plus labor, transport, blah, blah. Acrylic is getting awfully pricey. It's not like fabricating a washer for 16X20 prints, which are heavy enough when they're full.

[Michael R]

I guess that’s why the big acrylic Kienzle is something like $5,000 (!) yikes.


Oh, never show your hand, Michael. You won't draw an audience that way. But if acrylic is "just fine" for something as big as a 30X40-plus inch slot washer, how thick do you think those outer acrylic walls at least have to be? Maybe 3/8 inch thick, maybe 1/2 inch. And realistically, you're talking about two sheet of that, about $600 to $800 worth prior to fabrication expense, plus the inner thinner sheet requirements, several hundred more for materials only, easily $1000 for sheet expense alone, plus labor, transport, blah, blah. Acrylic is getting awfully pricey. It's not like fabricating a washer for 16X20 prints, which are heavy enough when they're full.

[bob carnie]

Oh, never show your hand, Michael. You won't draw an audience that way. But if acrylic is "just fine" for something as big as a 30X40-plus inch slot washer, how thick do you think those outer acrylic walls at least have to be? Maybe 3/8 inch thick, maybe 1/2 inch. And realistically, you're talking about two sheet of that, about $600 to $800 worth prior to fabrication expense, plus the inner thinner sheet requirements, several hundred more for materials only, easily $1000 for sheet expense alone, plus labor, transport, blah, blah. Acrylic is getting awfully pricey. It's not like fabricating a washer for 16X20 prints, which are heavy enough when they're full.

I had trays made about 8 of them 6 -30 x 40inch and 2 - 44 x 60 inch . I found a plastic company who would cut to exact size very thick hard grey plastic (not transparent) we then found a plastic welder to weld them all together and put handles on them. I use them every day and I have had them for about 10 years or more . They work perfectly.
I suspect Drew is correct , I. will need about $1000 worth of plexi , my problem is the guy that made the original is like a lot of us.. closer to heavens door than to conception... he has retired . But just plastic welding will not be enough I will need someone
to router out the five slots to hold the dividers , also build a bottom drainage system that takes the water away with fix evenly plus an over flow drainage area. As many of you point out I believe I will need to WRAP the outside keep the whole unit together. I do not need it too be transparent but I will need to have it on a Caster system that will allow me to move it into place near the floor drains as well attach tempered water too it. I suspect all in all this will cost me about $3-5 thousand dollars. As Michael points out I do work for others so one large mural job will pay for the unit. I hesitate to take these types of projects on now as I do not have the ability to wash economically and time sensitive. I have done mural jobs and in todays world the amount of running water I used in the past was outrageous as basically one can only wash one print at a time to meet archival standards, so if you are doing a 10 mural show basically your stuck to 2 days of full washing. I refer back to the Clyde Butcher video of his printer washing prints in a floor washer and it looks to be a 6 slot vertical floor model. I am going to move forward on this unit over the summer and I will post my design, my materials and where I get them, as well what is required to make one, I thank every one who has contributed to this thread in a positive way. Bob

[Drew Wiley]

Bob, routing or dadoing grooves in acrylic is hell. Because acrylic easily melts doing that, an active coolant flow is needed along with special expensive solid carbide tooling, plus an expensive machine totally water-resistant if it's going to be done safely and legally, something most acrylic fabricators just don't have, being more akin to synthetic countertop apparatus. It is vastly simpler to solvent-weld rib-like retainers consisting of square lengths of acrylic stock to the inside tank endwalls instead, with removable separating septums slid between those.

[Duolab123]

Make a cement vault. :cool:

[MartinP]

Fiberglassed outer tanks are also relatively easy to make, and can be quite strong, but would not be transparent-walled like acrylic (nor would stainless). I don't know why transparency would really be important anyway. Fiberglass construction over plywood would be more affordable than either stainless fabrication or using thick acrylic sheeting on large scale.

I have always wondered how being 'see-thru' improved the washing, but perhaps it makes it easier to discover the quality of the water flow-pattern using the ink trick.

My only positive idea is wondering about re-purposing water-tanks made for other (plumbing) purposes and hence only needing to make the support frame and separators, which are relatively low-load components. Going further, why do the prints even have to be vertical? That story about fixer-bearing wash-water being heavy and sinking to the bottom of the tank was found to be imaginary years ago wasn't it? And anyway, that is what the dividers plus water-flow seeks to circulate out of the tank. A large flat 'tray', say eighteen inches deep, is a lot easier to homebuild than some high-strength acrylic vertical system surely -- though it would use more ground area I suppose.

EDIT: For clarity, the water-flow will be constrained by the divider system making the 'pockets', while the print would need to be supported on a nylon(?) mesh fixed inside each pocket (like a drying-screen supports a print), with sufficient clearance between mesh and pocket to allow water to flow slowly around the print. Un/loading prints could be done from an empty washer, or the system of dividers could stack vertically with a few tabs to align the structure with the water nozzles.

[interneg]

an active coolant flow is needed along with special expensive solid carbide tooling, plus an expensive machine totally water-resistant

AKA a milling machine - which is clearly what Nova et al were/ are using to machine the components of their washers.

[jnantz]

Hi Bob

Im thinking of what the guy in NY State (fine art photo supply, defender photo supply ) used to sell kits for, it was a fish tank that had 2 pvc tubes
and plexi sheets that slide in the pvc tubes as separators, fill it up, let stuff soak then drain it and repeat
might not even have to be huge, maybe narrow would work...
plas-tech in Woodbridge, Ontario might be able to custom make you a tank. I don't know who they are
but they came up when I googled "plastic fabricators Toronto" and judging by their website they seem legit..
our local fabricator closed shop during covid or I'd give you his credentials, he was like maholy nagy, the real deal ...
good luck
John

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh, Interneg, I've tooled up so many shops myself I can't possibly remember them all. There are all kinds of routes to working with acrylic, depending on budget and scale of activity. Our own shop facility, where I worked, took up an entire city block. Left over spaces were leased out to cabinet shops as well as a plastic and signage fabricator. We had 440V 3-phase incoming voltage in that building; 4 gauge wiring. But just the carbide to any programmable system would cost more than what Bob is likely to spend for his entire project. Simple cutting and solvent welding appropriate to a washing device doesn't need to go that far; but if it's locally available, why not? - actually, there are often stiff set-up fees for one-offs when highly automated equipment is used, so something less elaborate is often more realistic.

[ic-racer]

This thread got me interested in checking out Butcher's washers. I found a video where he mentions his early and latest print washers:

236980

236981

[bob carnie]

The Clyde Butcher video I recently saw was more recent and featured his assistant doing the silver printing and using a floor vertical washer.

[Michael R]

The Clyde Butcher video I recently saw was more recent and featured his assistant doing the silver printing and using a floor vertical washer.

Bob, it occurs to me perhaps you don't need dividers/compartments. Just thinking out loud but for paper that large wouldn't it possibly be safer to suspend the prints in the washer from the top anyway (ie hang them with clips or whatever)? In which case you just have some sort of rods along the top of the tank and you attach the prints to clips hanging from the rods. Unless you have some kind of too-wild current going on, the prints should remain separated just fine as long as there is a little space between them.

Of course this wouldn't work if you don't have an expendable paper edge to clip to.

[Peter De Smidt]

And that the weight of the print doesn't cause stretching.....

How many of these prints do you make at a time? My guess is: not too many.

To conserve water, how about making rigid trays? To keep the print off of the bottom, you could put in window screens, route a texture in the bottom of the tray, put epoxy or silicone dots on the bottom, or..... You could build a frame to hold multiple trays, one above the other. Put in a drain valve at one end, and slop the trays slightly towards the drain. Put water in the tray. Put the print face up in the tray. Now, put another tray on top.... This way, you can get each of the prints soaking in water. Once all the prints are in, drain each of the tanks and replace the water, kinda like the Ilford method for washing film. I expect this method could be much more water efficient than using a traditional vertical washer. When you're not using it, you could break it down and store the trays vertically to save space.

[bob carnie]

Bob, it occurs to me perhaps you don't need dividers/compartments. Just thinking out loud but for paper that large wouldn't it possibly be safer to suspend the prints in the washer from the top anyway (ie hang them with clips or whatever)? In which case you just have some sort of rods along the top of the tank and you attach the prints to clips hanging from the rods. Unless you have some kind of too-wild current going on, the prints should remain separated just fine as long as there is a little space between them.

Of course this wouldn't work if you don't have an expendable paper edge to clip to.

Very observant thought, rods with clips would work very well as you suggest, I will admit I like the idea of six slot but yes a open box with flowing water and bottom release with rods would indeed work , I think paper handling would be the only issue, I hang prints in large gumbichromate now with clips on wire now and it can get clumsy or HANDSY which can maybe harm the paper.

[bob carnie]

And that the weight of the print doesn't cause stretching.....

How many of these prints do you make at a time? My guess is: not too many.

To conserve water, how about making rigid trays? To keep the print off of the bottom, you could put in window screens, route a texture in the bottom of the tray, put epoxy or silicone dots on the bottom, or..... You could build a frame to hold multiple trays, one above the other. Put in a drain valve at one end, and slop the trays slightly towards the drain. Put water in the tray. Put the print face up in the tray. Now, put another tray on top.... This way, you can get each of the prints soaking in water. Once all the prints are in, drain each of the tanks and replace the water, kinda like the Ilford method for washing film. I expect this method could be much more water efficient than using a traditional vertical washer. When you're not using it, you could break it down and store the trays vertically to save space.

Hi Peter, I do not have the sink space for this , I do about 4 negatives a day with three 30 x 40 prints of each so I need to wash 12 prints, putting them back to back in 6 slots can accomodate this easily, see Micheals note above , not a bad idea I must say.

[Michael R]

Very observant thought, rods with clips would work very well as you suggest, I will admit I like the idea of six slot but yes a open box with flowing water and bottom release with rods would indeed work , I think paper handling would be the only issue, I hang prints in large gumbichromate now with clips on wire now and it can get clumsy or HANDSY which can maybe harm the paper.

For sure it's a little fiddly hanging the paper. Best would be to make sure the rods don't flex, use several clips along the edge of the paper, and have it all suspended below water level. It would definitely make fabrication easier without slots, otherwise for slots, what Drew recommended is easiest/least costly especially for DIY - ie build the slots out by gluing or solvent welding guides rather than routing/machining slots. Adding material is always easier than removing. The dividers of course don't need to be heavy/thick like the tank walls.

I've never worked with paper anywhere near that size so don't have experience vertical-washing that big, but what made me think of hanging the paper was that I wonder if the paper can support itself free-standing in a slot without some part of it possibly curving toward the wall/divider and making contact, inhibiting washing. Never tried it.

Anyway just some thoughts.

[Peter De Smidt]

Hi Bob, don't use it in the sink! Build a frame that can roll around on the floor. I'm not good with Sketchup, or I'd draw it. Maybe I'll have time on Friday. So, have two frame towers. Think Tower Bridge in London. I'd make then out of wood, something like 2x2" hardwood. Have them on castors. You could put board between through the towers to act as shelves, setting the trays on the boards. 4 high wouldn't be too bad. If you built screen inserts, wither with pvc, stainless rod, or....? You could use the screens to move the prints. Once you drain the trays, the screen could be used as drying racks.....You don't need a huge tub of water to do efficient washing.

[Sal Santamaura]

Bob, it occurs to me perhaps you don't need dividers/compartments. Just thinking out loud but for paper that large wouldn't it possibly be safer to suspend the prints in the washer from the top anyway (ie hang them with clips or whatever)?...

My Inglis washer came with a piece that fits over its dividers to hold down prints as they wash. This is necessary because, as they diffuse out more chemicals, many (most, in my experience) fiber base papers float up. In my Summitek washer, the dividers plus Kodak dental x-ray clips constrain prints from rising above the water line. Without dividers, prints in a large washer would most likely float against each other or the tank's sides.

[Michael R]

How about clipping a few little weights to the bottom of the prints? (like weighted roll film clips for example)

I bet that Inglis washer is pretty cool. I have a small Inglis 4x5 film washer and one of his pin registration systems. He was a good guy and made some interesting darkroom products.


My Inglis washer came with a piece that fits over its dividers to hold down prints as they wash. This is necessary because, as they diffuse out more chemicals, many (most, in my experience) fiber base papers float up. In my Summitek washer, the dividers plus Kodak dental x-ray clips constrain prints from rising above the water line. Without dividers, prints in a large washer would most likely float against each other or the tank's sides.

[Drew Wiley]

Washing them in a swimming pool? Wonder how many people have swimming pools in their yards in Toronto? I wouldn't be surprised if Butcher loses a print or even a finger from time to time to a gator in that pool. Welcome to Florida.

[Sal Santamaura]

How about clipping a few little weights to the bottom of the prints? (like weighted roll film clips for example)...

Viability of that approach would likely depend on rate and pattern of water flow through the tank. It still might drive sheets into contact with each other.



...I bet that Inglis washer is pretty cool. I have a small Inglis 4x5 film washer and one of his pin registration systems. He was a good guy and made some interesting darkroom products.

Indeed. I haven't used that washer much lately, given the dearth of current glossy fiber-base papers that don't send me running away with their excessive shininess when air dried. However, I bought it specifically for washing the 8x10 Azo in my stash, which is single-weight and tended to stick to the Summitek's dividers. Alistair used textured dividers. I'm about to break out the Azo and tailor some digital negatives to its (the last batch Kodak made) "unique" curve. :)

[Martin Aislabie]

Hi Bob

NOVA still do a 20x24 vertical print washer - https://www.theimagingwarehouse.com/ProductGrp/Nova-Washmaster-ECO

They may also have one in their clearance corner - https://www.theimagingwarehouse.com/ProductGrp/darkroom-film-hardware-clearance

They ship worldwide too.

As for the huge one that you want - good luck - do you know any stainless steel fabricators ?

Martin

[Duolab123]

Look at the print baskets from the old days. One can only imagine the tanks.

237512

[Michael R]

Lol the big one takes 22 40”x96” prints. Not bad.


Look at the print baskets from the old days. One can only imagine the tanks.

237512

[bob carnie]

Update- my friend is buying the 20 x 24 washer out of UK, 5 slots , delivered to Ottawa Canada under 2K CAD - she mentioned that the people who are selling it are extremely helpful...

Now on to the bigger unit

[pitotshock]

I'd be tempted to build a vertical fiberglass tank.

A quick form made from MDF with a slight taper built into it, say a rectangular box of about 36 inch high x44 inch long x8 inch wide or so. Fill in any divets and corners with a nice radius with some body fill, and paint it, then wax the crap out of it. Quick spray of PVA mould release and spray a layer or two of gelcoat. Thinking chop strand mat with polyester resin to keep costs down to a minimum as there is no exposure to chemistry of any concentration in a wash tank. Plan on a number of layers to make it tough.

To hold the water pressure around the sides I would use 2x4 spruce frames around the lip and at the mid span and glass it right into the layup. Could upgrade to welded steel tube, but likely not necessary. Plan your water flow based on your favourite print washer design and mould in the threaded plastic fittings where you want them.

You'd obviously need access to some wood working tools for the form and frames, but the fiberglass can be done with scissors and paint brushes mostly. For gel coat application, I've used cheap undercoating spray gun with good success. You could get a local custom fiberglass shop to do one for you based on your dimensions, but the price would reflect their shop rates and material markups. In Toronto, there is a great source for these materials in smaller quantities for boat building over at Noah's Marine Supply.

[Duolab123]

Are you thinking at all about a cascade washer? Maybe 2 or 3 prints wide, prints separated by strong window screening. 3 tanks long. Tanks are to tall to use gravity so you would need small pumps like what Fuji and Noritsu use in processing equipment.

Each tank would only need to be 3-4 inches across.

Freshest water comes into tank 3 which flows into tank 2, which finally flows into tank 1.

Gravity would be best as only one flowrate to worry about.

Counter current cascade washer. Old school.

[Sal Santamaura]

Are you thinking at all about a cascade washer? Maybe 2 or 3 prints wide, prints separated by strong window screening. 3 tanks long. Tanks are to tall to use gravity so you would need small pumps like what Fuji and Noritsu use in processing equipment.

Each tank would only need to be 3-4 inches across.

Freshest water comes into tank 3 which flows into tank 2, which finally flows into tank 1.

Gravity would be best as only one flowrate to worry about.

Counter current cascade washer. Old school.

A larger version of this one, which I own (but image not of mine):237602

[Duolab123]

237604

[Duolab123]

The prints would work their way up.

[Sal Santamaura]

The prints would work their way up.

I've never experienced that with my Summitek CW1116:


https://web.archive.org/web/20180527135414/http://www.summitek.com/cascade.html

At 250ml/min. the flow isn't sufficient to push prints up in those compartments where water flows in that direction.

[Duolab123]

I've never experienced that with my Summitek CW1116:


https://web.archive.org/web/20180527135414/http://www.summitek.com/cascade.html

At 250ml/min. the flow isn't sufficient to push prints up in those compartments where water flows in that direction.

I meant to say that as you add prints you would move a print already in the cascade up to the next higher pool.

This is exactly what you have in your print washer. Great design. Didn’t mean to imply that your prints move out of your washer. My poor communication skills

[Sal Santamaura]

I meant to say that as you add prints you would move a print already in the cascade up to the next higher pool...

Why not start putting them in the highest pool and working one's way down? No moving required and first in / last out, combined with leaching of fixer via diffusion, means everything gets clean. :)

[Duolab123]

Why not start putting them in the highest pool and working one's way down? No moving required and first in / last out, combined with leaching of fixer via diffusion, means everything gets clean. :)

:cool: