Which 135mm Lens to Keep

[catalinajack]

I have three 135s, all in top condition. A Rodenstock APO Sironar in a Copal 0 shutter, a Schneider-Kruzenach APO Symmar in a Copal 0 shutter, and a Schneider-Kruzenach Symmar S in a Syncro-Compur shutter. I will be selling two of the three. Which of the three would you keep? The S-K Symmar S is far less valuable than the other two but is its performance that much inferior to the two others, the APOs?

[Chester McCheeserton]

I have three 135s, all in top condition. A Rodenstock APO Sironar in a Copal 0 shutter, a Schneider-Kruzenach APO Symmar in a Copal 0 shutter, and a Schneider-Kruzenach Symmar S in a Syncro-Compur shutter. I will be selling two of the three. Which of the three would you keep? The S-K Symmar S is far less valuable than the other two but is its performance that much inferior to the two others, the APOs?

No

I would keep the one that gave me the largest image circle. I'm sure another member can chime in here and state which one that is.

Or if I didn't use front rise a ton and needed the $, I'd sell the APOs and keep the symmar S

Or if one has an older style Copal shutter, than I'd get rid of that one also

[xkaes]

It depends on what factors are important to you. Make a comparative list:
Size
Weight
Filter thread
Lens coating
Shutter age/accuracy
"market" value
YOUR test resolution
Image circle
maximum aperture

I could go on, but I bet this would eliminate at least one of them off the bat.

[ridax]

They say (though I've never checked that myself) the original Apo-Sironar is the same as the 80° Apo-Sironar-W. So I'd verify it really covers 80° and go for the larger angle of view. I'd exchange the shutters between the Apo-Sironar and the Symmar-S and keep the Apo-Sironar in the Synchro-Compur.

But if I were after the better background blur, I'd sell them all and buy a Convertible Sironar or a Convertible Symmar (and save a bit of money at the same time as the Convertibles are considerably cheaper).

[rfesk]

For what it is worth, the most recent lens design of the three is the Apo-Symmar. My most used lens is an (Apo)-Sironar which I am very satisfied with.

Edit - my 135 lens is marked Sironar N. When Rodenstock introduced the Apo Sironar-S they changed the previous model's name to Apo Sironar-N.

[Steve Goldstein]

They say (though I've never checked that myself) the original Apo-Sironar is the same as the 80° Apo-Sironar-W.

True, but...

The original Apo-Sironar, which ultimately became the Apo-Sironar-W, was offered only in 150mm, 210mm, and 300mm focal lengths. So if you have a 135mm lens it can't be an 80° version. Sironar-N == Apo-Sironar-N == 72°, Apo-Sironar-S = 75°. If it only says "Sironar" then it's likely the original convertible version.

[Bernice Loui]

Ignore the "APO" marketing moniker, it's related market value and all that...

Ponder the question of what are your image goals, how will this 135mm lens be used, what is expected from the 135mm lens?
Once this question is properly answered, the lens choice becomes easy.

In many ways, these three 135mm modern Plasmat formula lenses are going to be more similar than different.

~What will be the typical exposure aperture?
~How much camera movements will be needed?
~Image making light conditions?
~Contrast rendition?
~Color rendition .. within limits?
~In to out of focus rendition and Bokeh, are these aspects of lens personality significant?
~Lens flare personality (for still image folks, mostly avoided, for video & cinema folks it is a "thing")..


Until the image goals and expectations from the lens is determined/fixed, the choice will remain difficult.

Bernice





I have three 135s, all in top condition. A Rodenstock APO Sironar in a Copal 0 shutter, a Schneider-Kruzenach APO Symmar in a Copal 0 shutter, and a Schneider-Kruzenach Symmar S in a Syncro-Compur shutter. I will be selling two of the three. Which of the three would you keep? The S-K Symmar S is far less valuable than the other two but is its performance that much inferior to the two others, the APOs?

[Mark Sampson]

The 135mm Schneider Apo-Symmar is a remarkably sharp and contrasty lens. I was quite surprised to see its brilliant color rendition when my employer purchased one in the middle '90s. The Symmar-S is a very high-quality lens line; as it is 20 years older I would expect it to have slightly lower contrast than the APO lens.
I have no experience with the Rodesnstock 135mm- although I did use a Sinaron 210mm, a rebadged Rodenstock; it too had high contrast and saturated colors.
You have three of the very best lenses out there. Shoot comparison images at f/8 and f/22 and see if you can tell the differences between them- I expect that it will be difficult.
In your shoes I'd keep the APO-Symmar, simply because I used one on the job. But there are no wrong answers here!
(Full disclosure; my personal 135mm lens is a 1948 Kodak Wide Field Ektar... I like the way that it renders tones.)

[Eric Woodbury]

Keep the one you light using the most. I have lenses that are great performers that aren't my favorites for various reasons. I like all the same shutters for my lenses, as this makes it faster for me in the field. Some lenses I don't use because they are so valuable I'm scared to take them out. That's stupid, I know. My 135mm is a Fuji. Good as any, doesn't break the bank. You don't need the sharpest lens to photograph a fuzzy world. e

[catalinajack]

They say (though I've never checked that myself) the original Apo-Sironar is the same as the 80° Apo-Sironar-W. So I'd verify it really covers 80° and go for the larger angle of view. I'd exchange the shutters between the Apo-Sironar and the Symmar-S and keep the Apo-Sironar in the Synchro-Compur.

But if I were after the better background blur, I'd sell them all and buy a Convertible Sironar or a Convertible Symmar (and save a bit of money at the same time as the Convertibles are considerably cheaper).

Why keep the Syncro-Compur as opposed to a later Copal #0?

[ridax]

Why keep the Syncro-Compur as opposed to a later Copal #0?

Why keep an outdated Swiss watch as opposed to a later Chinese one?
Why keep an old Stradivarius instead of getting a fresh-made violin?

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?105191-Shutter-Efficiency-amp-Picture-BEAUTY

.... I've just bought half a dozen of 70-year-old Russian Москва-5 folders and am in the process of replacing all the cheapo Seiko shutters in my Mamiya TLR and Rapid-Omega lenses for the Момент-24С Compur copies.

[catalinajack]

Why keep an outdated Swiss watch as opposed to a later Chinese one?
Why keep an old Stradivarius instead of getting a fresh-made violin?

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?105191-Shutter-Efficiency-amp-Picture-BEAUTY

.... I've just bought half a dozen of 70-year-old Russian Москва-5 folders and am in the process of replacing all the cheapo Seiko shutters in my Mamiya TLR and Rapid-Omega lenses for the Момент-24С Compur copies.

Ridax, thank you for that reference and the time you took to explain a very complex topic. I am convinced. I believe my example is an older version as the aperture ring is chrome and serrated. Is my thinking correct on this? Also, do the nuances have as as much impact on 4 x 5 film as they might on 8 x 10 film?

[ridax]

do the nuances have as as much impact on 4 x 5 film as they might on 8 x 10 film?

The format is irrelevant; its all the same with any cameras.

As for the different generations of Synchro-Compurs, I avoid the most recent ones as they have angular 5-blade apertures. All the older Compurs have round ones. That matters a lot for the lens' out of focus rendition.

[catalinajack]

The format is irrelevant; its all the same with any cameras.

As for the different generations of Synchro-Compurs, I avoid the most recent ones as they have angular 5-blade apertures. All the older Compurs have round ones. That matters a lot for the lens' out of focus rendition.

Unfortunately, my example is a newer 5-blade version. Knowing that, would you favor this Syncro-Compur over a 5-blade Copal or is it a wash. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

[ridax]

Unfortunately, my example is a newer 5-blade version. Knowing that, would you favor this Syncro-Compur over a 5-blade Copal or is it a wash.

If my mostly used f-stops with a particular lens are going to be around f/16 to f/32, I'd better use a low-efficient shutter like the Copal with a round aperture to the highly efficient Synchro-Compur with an angular iris as the smaller the f-stop, the less impact the shutter efficiency has on the picture, while the iris shape shows itself at any aperture when any part of the subject is still out of focus. I would just ignore both factors if taking F/64-style pictures with everything included in the depth of field. I'd also ignore the shutter efficiency but mind the aperture shape if using long exposures only. I'd pay more attention to the shutter efficiency when using slide films and other ones with small exposure latitude as less efficient shutters inevitably make more exposure errors with different f-stops (though one can test a particular lens-and-shutter combination and make corrections for the different speed+aperture pairs).

But if the less-efficient shutter has just the same angular iris, I'd get rid of it and go with any Compur or Compound without any doubt.

[jnantz]

Not to cause trouble/sound harsh but. .. I’d get rid of the older (even if they are more valuable) lenses/ shutter. Older shutters are sometimes more difficult to maintain, parts are scarce, and someone might need to send to a repair shop with an in-house lathe (and fabricating parts can be costly). And to be honest if I had a 150 / 90 I’d get rid of all 3 of the 135's. Having lots of lenses and gear is a distraction not “helpful” …. for so long I have read threads here (and other places) of folks with like 15 lenses between 65 and 210, and it's a real conundrum picking a lens to shoot with, might as well just have what you enjoy and use the most and sell off the other stuff as dead-weight, and put the $$ into the film and paper fund (seeing it costs a king's ransom for film and paper these days).

Have fun with your image making!
John

[OllieG]

I’m glad I stumbled across this. I prefer to keep a small lens selection with 90/150/240 so I can identify issues as they arise. Recently my 150mm suddenly decided to go really slow. This has now caused a gap while I decide what to do (as it’s a Seiko shutter) I’m actually thinking about having a standby 150 to keep it simple.