Bellows creep into frame on Horseman 45FA when using 120mm lens – repair or replace?

[Jack_Luke]

I recently bought a 120mm Super Topcor lens for my Horseman FA. Until then, I had been using a 180mm lens inherited from my old Arca.

With the 120mm lens focused to infinity, the bottom of the bellows enters either the bottom or top of the frame. This is visible on both the ground glass and on negatives.
The bellows leave the frame as they are extended beyond the infinity focus point. Whether the bellows enter the top of the frame isn't consistent.

The issue isn't present when using the 180mm lens, presumably because the bellows are extended further – even at the infinity focus point.

I can correct for this error using movements, but it's not an ideal solution.

A few questions:


For the avoidance of doubt, I assume I'm not missing something fundamentally obvious with this lens? Are bag bellows required for this lens as it is relatively wide? I can't imagine that's the case but thought I should check
Assuming it is an issue with degraded bellows, can anyone share a good resource outlining bellows refurbishment? The bellows are in mostly good condition bar a few very small pinpricks at the folds. I have repaired leaky bellows successfully but have never embarked on 'structural' refurbishment
If the bellows are deemed beyond repair, does anyone have any experience or feedback on bellows sold by either 'jameshurleygroup (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353588976669)' or the various Chinese vendors on eBay?
Finally, any guidance or tutorials on how to replace bellows on a Horseman field camera would be helpful. I'm sure I could work it out but it's always nice to learn from the mistakes made by others!


I have included a screengrab of the issue from a rough scan. Please ignore the light leaks – those were caused by leaky arms on a cheap changing bag!

The image of the rear of the camera shows the bellows when folded/stored.

Many thanks in advance.

https://i.ibb.co/x6B7bC0/Horseman-bellows.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Wvm6w88/Screenshot-2023-02-24-at-17-54-46.png

[Tin Can]

Horseman bellows are 'perky' when new and do not slump until very used

no advise on tiny bellows

[Len Middleton]

Is this a bellows sag issue?

Have you tried putting something under the bellows to keep them up and not sag into the picture?

My ULF Korona 8x20 Panoramic View has clips on the front standard where the bellows folds could be gathered with small straps glued to the intermediate points on the bellows. There were loops on the end of those straps that went on the front standard clip.

Bear in mind that camera can accommodate 32" of bellows, so when focusing a 14" / 355mm WA lens at infinity, need somewhere for the additional bellows to park and stay out of the way.

Not certain if this is your problem and whether it might work.

[ic-racer]

There is something wrong with the bottom of your bellows.

[sharktooth]

I'm guessing some of the folds are sticking together near the back. When you extend the lens to infinity with your 120, there isn't enough "pull" to separate the sticky folds. It's probably the outside surface that is sticky. I'd extend the bellows as far as possible, and see if you can reach in with a cloth and some isopropyl alcohol to clean the surface.

[Tin Can]

Usually Horseman belows are damaged by fingers

Then they don't fold anymore and it gets worse

[Jack_Luke]

There is something wrong with the bottom of your bellows.

I assume you're referring to the bulge in the folds? The photo slightly exaggerates this but, yes, I suspect the previous owner squashed the bellows up when folding the camera down (or, perhaps, they're just old!).

As per the OP, any advice on whether the bellows can be refurbished to bring them back to their 'perky' shape would be greatly appreciated.

[rfesk]

If you pull the front standard out to where it would be when using your 120 lens does the bellows at the back (next to the rear standard) remain compressed?

If it doesn't it is possible that the inner and outer layers of the bellows have separated.

[Jack_Luke]

If you pull the front standard out to where it would be when using your 120 lens does the bellows at the back (next to the rear standard) remain compressed?

If it doesn't it is possible that the inner and outer layers of the bellows have separated.

They do remain compressed, though misshapen.

On closer inspection, I can see the bellows have shifted slightly where they are glued to the rear standard. They do not sit square and this may be contributing to the uneven fold when compressed.

Given I would have to remove the bellows anyway if I decide to replace them, I may try reconditioning them off of the camera and re-glueing in place. This would be a cheap and (relatively) low-risk solution to my problem.

[Richard Wasserman]

I used to have a Horseman FA and found that with wider lenses I needed to pull the bellows forward to make sure they were not compressed inside the camera body or I had problems like yours—it quickly became second nature to do this and I considered this a quirk in an otherwise lovely camera. I also replaced the bellows for an unrelated issue and used one from ecbuyonline on ebay. It worked out very well. I had first talked to Camera Bellows in the UK, but they cannot make the proper bellows for this camera.

[Jack_Luke]

I used to have a Horseman FA and found that with wider lenses I needed to pull the bellows forward to make sure they were not compressed inside the camera body or I had problems like yours—it quickly became second nature to do this and I considered this a quirk in an otherwise lovely camera. I also replaced the bellows for an unrelated issue and used one from ecbuyonline on ebay. It worked out very well. I had first talked to Camera Bellows in the UK, but they cannot make the proper bellows for this camera.

Thank you Richard, this is very helpful. Beyond glueing them in place on the rear standard, was the process of fitting the new bellows at all complex?

I hope re-shaping, perhaps gentle ironing and regluing will be enough to keep the original bellows going for a bit longer, but we shall wait and see.

The camera is indeed lovely. I bought mine (ours, technically – my partner is also a photographer) four or five years ago after university for a good price. It sat rarely used as I stopped shooting LF as my career moved away from photography. However, I have resolved to shoot more in 2023, and I'm off to a good start. Our recent acquisition of an Epson 10000XL for the price of a taxi home (!) feels too much like fate to ignore the call of the darkcloth.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I had first talked to Camera Bellows in the UK, but they cannot make the proper bellows for this camera.

Why not? Of course, the FA doesn't have user-interchangeable bellows, so Camera Bellows can't get you to send them an old one with frames to which they can attach a replacement. However, I find nothing special on my FA's bellows that Camera Bellows couldn't replicate.

[ic-racer]

The bellows on my FA were buggered near the lens stage by improper handling from prior owner. This did not show well in the ebay ad, but it has been 12 years and they just look bad but don't interfere with taking pictures. In your case, looks like unfortunately the bellows are causing issues. I tried re-folding mine and letting it sit for months, but they went back the way the were (punched in on the sides).

I think new bellows are impossible to find. All replacements I have seen have pleats about twice the size of the originals. I'd try whatever it takes to get the original bellows to fold better.

[Richard Wasserman]

The bellows I bought were very similar in pleat size to the original. Camera Bellows as I remember either didn't have thin enough material or couldn't do the small pleats—it was a number of years ago and I'm not quite sure.

The replacement bellows were installed by Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works.

[Jack_Luke]

...All replacements I have seen have pleats about twice the size of the originals. I'd try whatever it takes to get the original bellows to fold better.

I assume this is because the larger pleats may interfere with my ability to use the full range of movements?

[ic-racer]

The bellows I bought were very similar in pleat size to the original. Camera Bellows as I remember either didn't have thin enough material or couldn't do the small pleats—it was a number of years ago and I'm not quite sure.

The replacement bellows were installed by Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works.

Can you post a picture of the replacement bellows.

[Tin Can]

https://dynatect.com/product/protective-covers/bellows/custom-bellows/

[smigol]

I replaced the one on my 45FA with the bellows from etone photo.

Tricky part was removing the inserts that hold the back standard. There are little springs inside them and lucky I did not lose them.

Best trick found on the internet was to use a set of right angle ring clip pliers to get into the inserts.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52503371115_3a53c695a3_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nZxv3t)New Bellows (https://flic.kr/p/2nZxv3t) by Stephen Migol (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smigol/), on Flickr


Also, don't be like me and install them upside down.

[Vaughan]

The b+w image in the original post shows the vignetting at the bottom, so it must be the TOP of the bellows interfering.

[Jim Noel]

That is plain old bellows sag. The top of the bellows is in this image, not the bottom.
Simple, cheap solution - place a sponge under the bellows to hold it up. I've had todo this for at least half of the 8x10's I've owned.