Frustrated with current printing paper surfaces....

[bmikiten]

I'm re-printing some old negatives that were originally on Oriental Seagull and having trouble finding paper with a similar surface. I'm using Ilford MG Matt currently because the MG gloss too close to an RC look. I like the tonal range and it seems to take selenium well but I'm looking for other options in 8x10 to 16x20. The only paper sold by B&H that I haven't tried is Bergger. I had tried their film and didn't like the consistency so the paper wasn't on the list for gallery type work. I've also avoided "budget" papers like Arista. I'm using Adox and some old Azo for contact printing so I'm good there.

Anything I'm missing? Thoughts?

[Alan9940]

Have you looked at Foma Fomabrom Variant III 111? I don't find the gloss of that paper to be as apparent as, say, Ilford MG Classic FB.

[paulbarden]

The Bergger MG papers are so similar to the Ilford papers in most every respect, except price. I once did a test and printed the same negative on Ilford Warmtone and Bergger Warmtone, and when the prints were dry, I couldn't tell them apart. The glossy surface of both papers is pretty much identical. I suspect the Bergger product is made by Harman/Ilford.

[Sal Santamaura]

I'm re-printing some old negatives that were originally on Oriental Seagull and having trouble finding paper with a similar surface. I'm using Ilford MG Matt currently because the MG gloss too close to an RC look...Anything I'm missing?...

Unfortunately, Ilford MG matt is incapable of solid blacks. The only thing you're missing is that the surface of Ilford's fiber-base glossy papers when air dried isn't "close to" the look of Ilford's RC Pearl surface products. It's excessively shiny and much less elegant than the RC! Try some Multigrade RC Portfolio pearl surface, save a lot of time and water, and enjoy the results. If and when HARMAN reverts its fiber product top coat to what it previously used (see Galerie for the last glossy Ilford paper with an appropriate surface), I'll go back, but until then, it's RC all the way for me.

[Michael R]

Bleah. Pearl was always gross with that cheap stippled texture. Looks like gloss overspray that needs to be wet sanded. Matte is much better.

[Mark Sampson]

Bergger paper is made in England... presumably in the Ilford plant. I tried it, nice paper, not significantly different from Ilford MG Classic FB. A moot point, really since it doesn't seem to be available for sale in the USA right now.

[Drew Wiley]

Ilford MGWT and Bergger don't have quite the gloss level of MG Cooltone or Classic. I don't think any of them resemble RC in the least. Only Galerie graded was more like the sheen level of Oriental Seagull G. Right now, I'm working with old reserve stock of EMaks graded, which is distinctly shinier than all the above. It's the kind of gelatin involved. But the highlight micro-tonality is better than all the rest too. But what the heck, I often print color on Fuji Supergloss now, which, just like Cibachrome, is a true gloss PET base, and not paper at all, so I'm not bothered a bit by minor differences in the sheen of "glossy" FB black and white papers. When I don't want any sheen, I simply go full matte MGWT.

Bergger papers seem to be just a Harman tweak with a little steeper drop-off into the print shadows, with real nice DMax. The "neutral" version, when appropriately cold-toned, gives a look much like old classic Seagull G, but minus that slight purplish-sepia cast. Imagine old G in VC fashion, with real punch, which Oriental's own VC never gave. Bergger is priced in the premium range just like MGWT, and should be; but the fact you can get it in 25 sheet boxes lowers the cost hurdle somewhat. If you want to try it, it shows up periodically. I found it distinctly superior to Ilford Classic, more akin to former Harman Fineprint.

[bmikiten]

I'm wondering why you don't get good blacks. That is one of the only things (using 130 developer) that I found ok with the paper. I can't (won't) use RC as I'm stuck in the 1980s and can't imagine selling someone an RC print.

[Drew Wiley]

Perhaps lack of final toning? Or just incomplete paper development? MGWT FB matte has a nice really deep DMax if that's what you're aiming for, and that's the case with 130 developer too, just like with the gloss version of the same paper. MG Classic, slightly less so - decent - but not really the same amount of punch as original Seagull G or current MGWT.

[jp]

I haven't tried the older Oriental papers, but I love their RC stuff I can't get anymore in the US.

You should check out some of the Foma papers. I don't love their film, but they have some good quality papers.

[Tim V]

Bergger's semi-gloss warmtone with the ivory base is beautiful and unlike anything in the Ilford FB paper line. It's my favourite paper by far, but I do admit that it isn't for every picture. Subjectively, I think it's best with 130 dev.

I've tried the Gloss Neutral (more cool than neutral to my eye) and straight Gloss Warmtone Berrger papers, and agree that I'd rather just use Ilford equivalents.

[Sal Santamaura]

Bergger's semi-gloss warmtone with the ivory base is beautiful...

Tried it. Love the surface, hate the color. An OBA-free product with white whites (which are a perfect match for also OBA-free Rising white board, I might add) is certainly possible. One need only look at Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin with dye inks on it to confirm that.

If HARMAN can make a product with that semi-gloss surface for Bergger, it could certainly manufacture some of its own. The market, however, apparently demands shiny objects unless very warm base/image color is involved. Too bad.

[bmikiten]

Anyone know when Bergger will be back in stock in the US? I've spoken to four vendors and no one knows.

[Sal Santamaura]

Anyone know when Bergger will be back in stock in the US? I've spoken to four vendors and no one knows.

That information is available from the same source that knows tomorrow's winning lottery numbers. :)