Schneider Xenar 3.5/240

[NormaN]

Hello all

I recently purchased a Xenar 3.5/240 in a compound V shutter and would like to use the lens for 8x10 portraits.

Strangely, I cannot find any Schneider - data or technical documentation on this model.

As you can see on the photos, the lens suffers from Schneideritis and major chipping of the inner (and partly outer) black coating.

Also you also can see that especially on the 2 sides of the second lens element the glass is a bit hazy resp. at certain viewing angles a kind of matte layer is visible.

So far I have not had the opportunity to test the lens. The shutter has yet to be revised and I have yet to build a lensboard.

- Is this "matte layer" damage to the coating, water condensation damage?
- Is it worth a professional polish and/or recoating?
- Does anyone know a company in Europe that offers these services?
- How are the lens elements actually held in the mount? There are no visible clamping rings.....

Regarding the shutter:
The cable release nipple is missing. How would you replace it? The original is sort of “crimped” on.

NormaN

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[Chauncey Walden]

If the lens is as sharp as my two 240 f/4.5 Xenars, the haze might be desirable for portraits;-)

[Greg]

Very nice find.
According to my 1961 literature, f/3.5 Schneider Xenar's were only offered in the following focal lengths:
50mm
75mm
105mm
165mm
180mm
the 240mm is listed as only a f/4.5 lens.

[Embdude]

The 3.5 Xenar's were all gone by the end of WWII (1945)... the last catalog I can find them in is the 1939... I don't know of any wartime catalogs... Linhof commissioned a 135mm 3.5 in 1950-ish for the Linhof 4x5 Standard Press, but the larger ones were all gone by then.... Here is the Serial number dates and a couple of pages from the 1935 Brooks (USA) Schneider catalog...

235606 235607 235608

[Embdude]

Is the haze in the front cells or the rear? They should just unscrew. If it is in the rear cemented pair it may be the balsam glue holding them together...

235609 235610

[mhayashi]

It looks like the front haze needs some internal surface cleaning of the front elements.
You can disassemble the front lens case and clean the inner surfaces.
Are there any notches on the circular plate ring written Schenider Xenar?
If so you can open the ring by the proper wrench.

Your compound V shutter is missing the mounting flange.
Contact S.K. Grimes for the flange though not in Europe.

https://skgrimes.com/products/mounting-flanges/

[David Lindquist]

The 3.5 Xenar's were all gone by the end of WWII (1945)... the last catalog I can find them in is the 1939... I don't know of any wartime catalogs... Linhof commissioned a 135mm 3.5 in 1950-ish for the Linhof 4x5 Standard Press, but the larger ones were all gone by then.... Here is the Serial number dates and a couple of pages from the 1935 Brooks (USA) Schneider catalog...

235606 235607 235608

Be interesting to see what its serial number says about its date of manufacture. Not only does the OP say this example is coated, it's marked on the bezel with an inverted red triangle which is how Schneider indicated the lens was coated. (Of course they eventually drop that practice as did Carl Zeiss Jena with their red "T")

David

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

I have a 240mm f3.5 Xenar from 1951 or 1952 (2,884,xxx), so were made for a while after WWII. Mine is single coated (red triangle) and also had a haze when I bought it. The haze was pretty easy to remove after I took the elements out of the barrel, but it is certainly worth having someone professionally clean it. They are nice lenses with 5x7 coverage, very sharp at f8 and beyond, and a bit soft wide open.

[NormaN]

Hello all, thanks for your helpful replies!

@embdude

Thanks for the brochures I could not find! The Haze is in the front cell, the second lens from the front. It can be unscrewed from the first one.

One question about your second post, I could not open the 2 attachments:
Attachment 235609 Attachment 235610
Did you attach any other documents?


@ mhayashi

I was able to unscrew the front two lenses. But the Haze cannot be cleaned with the conventional liquids(alcohol, lighter fluid) I have respect for experimenting with other liquids/methods.

Fortunately I have the mounting flange, it was just not on the picture
What I am interested in is how are the lenses held in the mounts? There are no visible "notches" to screw off. Are the lenses glued in place?

@ David Linquist

Judging by the serial number (2,309,XXX) the lens is from 1949 or 1950.


@Jason Greenberg Motamedi

Like your lens, mine also has the red triangle and dates from 1949 or 1950.
I would be interested to know how you removed the haze. The haze on my lens is almost invisible held up to the light only at a shallow angle. it is like a matte layer. Is it a calcium deposit due to condensation? Or a damaged coating due to something else?

Apparently the 3.5/240 Xenars were still produced for a while but slowly phased out?

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

I went back to my notebook from when I purchased the lens (2009), and realize that I had it professionally polished. At the time Arax in Kyiv was doing good optical work very cheaply, and I sent the element to them to polish and recoat. I don't know what the haze was, sorry, but I was clearly not able to remove it myself.

[NormaN]

I went back to my notebook from when I purchased the lens (2009), and realize that I had it professionally polished. At the time Arax in Kyiv was doing good optical work very cheaply, and I sent the element to them to polish and recoat. I don't know what the haze was, sorry, but I was clearly not able to remove it myself.



Hello Jason

I am looking for a company that can polish and coat. Ideally in Europe.

I have heard a lot about Jason Lane but not sure if he still offers these services....

Thanks very much for the tip regarding Arax.
I see they are still active
https://araxfoto.com
I just sent them an email with an inquiry

Did you take the lenses out of the mounts at that time? Was it simply coated like the original?

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Before you spend a lot of time and money on this lens, consider if you need a lens this fast. Are you planning on using it at f3.5? If not, perhaps you can find another 240mm lens in better condition that is ready to go. Also, use it before repair to see if the haze effects your images.

[NormaN]

If the lens is as sharp as my two 240 f/4.5 Xenars, the haze might be desirable for portraits;-)

Hello Chauncey

I will try to take some photos in the next few days/weeks. Unfortunately, the compound shutter is missing the cable release "nipple". So I have to use the release lever directly on the shutter.

235644

[NormaN]

Before you spend a lot of time and money on this lens, consider if you need a lens this fast. Are you planning on using it at f3.5? If not, perhaps you can find another 240mm lens in better condition that is ready to go. Also, use it before repair to see if the haze effects your images.

Yeah maybe I'll leave it that way for now and see how the test photos come out.

[Daniel Unkefer]

If you are shooting 8x10 portraits with ambient lighting, you will need F3.5 and fast film. I'm pushing high speed film and sometimes it's not enough. Try it and at least look through it with your setup. For portraiture often diffusion or soft focus is preferred. My Xenars are more modern, F4.5's but they are lovely for portraiture. If you like sharper results (sometimes I like it clinical) consider another type of lens. I like process Apo Ronar lenses for sharp work. Anyway have fun that's usually the point. You can always fire the shutter with the trip lever, if you can't get the nipple replaced. I've got a couple Compounds like that. My repairman said using a cable release will bend interior parts in one of my Compounds. I just use the trip lever with that one, no probs. Does it have X sync or do you not need that

[NormaN]

If you are shooting 8x10 portraits with ambient lighting, you will need F3.5 and fast film. I'm pushing high speed film and sometimes it's not enough. Try it and at least look through it with your setup. For portraiture often diffusion or soft focus is preferred. My Xenars are more modern, F4.5's but they are lovely for portraiture. If you like sharper results (sometimes I like it clinical) consider another type of lens. I like process Apo Ronar lenses for sharp work. Anyway have fun that's usually the point. You can always fire the shutter with the trip lever, if you can't get the nipple replaced. I've got a couple Compounds like that. My repairman said using a cable release will bend interior parts in one of my Compounds. I just use the trip lever with that one, no probs. Does it have X sync or do you not need that


Hello Daniel

Yes I would like to use it mainly for portraits. I often shoot outdoors.
The problem is also that the shutters are not as fast as the lenses :)
The compound shutter with this Xenar does not reach 1/50 sec. measured with the shutter tester plug it is 1/25. The other compound shutter I have (with a Telexenar 5.5/500) is a newer model with flash sync. But the 1/50 is only 1/15.
Maybe I need to clean the piston?

I have not used a flash yet....

[Mark Sampson]

Something else to consider. Schneider's catalog lists your lens to cover the 6-1/2"x8-1/2" format, yet you want to shoot 8x10. And while your lens will likely cover 8x10 at portrait distances, it's also a fairly wide lens for that format. Unless you plan to make environmental portraits, you'll be right on top of your subjects, and you'll be dealing with the (traditionally unflattering) wide-angle perspective. Admittedly Chuck Close made a very successful career of it, but is that what you're looking for?

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52541424923_76b42042be_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3Ux7B)5x7 PlusX 2402 Aero D23 5x7 Norma 500mm Tele Xenar (https://flic.kr/p/2o3Ux7B) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Kodak Aerographic Five Inch Plus-X cut seven inches, to fit a 5x7 Lisco Holder. 5x7 Sinar Norma with my newly CLA'ed Schneider 500mm Tele Xenar at F22. Hasselblad 40mm Distagon Yellow Filter jammed inside the lenshood, it fits! D23 1:1 8x10 Unidrum on Uniroller. 5x7 Contact Print on Arista #2 RC Dektol 1:2 The Tele-Xenar is quite sharp up front as you can see. I'm liking this film for 5x7, but I can also cut it to 4x5 or even 9x12cm. Like the tonality you get with the Aerial emulsion. Tim Kelly Inspired Broncolor Balloon 90 degrees left, lighting the entire set. Main light Broncolor C171 Monolight Pulsoflex Softbox, one stop brighter than the fill, 45 left to the set. Just out of camera shot 45 right, is a foamcore freestanding panel for passive fill. Finally, the creme on the sundae, is Broncolor C70 Monolight with Snoot and Handmade Grid from an olde Broncolor Honeycomb. Selecting lighting a small portion of the background. Just because

BTW my 500mm Compound was absolutely filthy inside, according to my repairman. So I'll bet yours would benefit from a good cleaning, too.

[Bernice Loui]

Apply Neutral Density filters as needed to achieve the shutter speed needed at the exposure aperture. Extremely common practice in cinema, video and still image making. The 4 f-stop and 10 f-stop ND filters in 100mm square are part of the B&W contrast filter set, polarizer filter and holder that lives in both the Linhof TK23s and 5x7 Sinar Norma outfit cases..

On camera filter holder solves the overly common issues of trying to find thread on filters to fit vintage lenses.


Bernice



Hello Daniel

Yes I would like to use it mainly for portraits. I often shoot outdoors.
The problem is also that the shutters are not as fast as the lenses :)
The compound shutter with this Xenar does not reach 1/50 sec. measured with the shutter tester plug it is 1/25. The other compound shutter I have (with a Telexenar 5.5/500) is a newer model with flash sync. But the 1/50 is only 1/15.
Maybe I need to clean the piston?

I have not used a flash yet....

[jga]

Be interesting to see what its serial number says about its date of manufacture. Not only does the OP say this example is coated, it's marked on the bezel with an inverted red triangle which is how Schneider indicated the lens was coated. (Of course they eventually drop that practice as did Carl Zeiss Jena with their red "T")

David

I have a 210mm f3.5 Xenar with SN 2484517 and a 135mm f3.5 with SN 2574743, so both from 1950-51.

[NormaN]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52541424923_76b42042be_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3Ux7B)5x7 PlusX 2402 Aero D23 5x7 Norma 500mm Tele Xenar (https://flic.kr/p/2o3Ux7B) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Kodak Aerographic Five Inch Plus-X cut seven inches, to fit a 5x7 Lisco Holder. 5x7 Sinar Norma with my newly CLA'ed Schneider 500mm Tele Xenar at F22. Hasselblad 40mm Distagon Yellow Filter jammed inside the lenshood, it fits! D23 1:1 8x10 Unidrum on Uniroller. 5x7 Contact Print on Arista #2 RC Dektol 1:2 The Tele-Xenar is quite sharp up front as you can see. I'm liking this film for 5x7, but I can also cut it to 4x5 or even 9x12cm. Like the tonality you get with the Aerial emulsion. Tim Kelly Inspired Broncolor Balloon 90 degrees left, lighting the entire set. Main light Broncolor C171 Monolight Pulsoflex Softbox, one stop brighter than the fill, 45 left to the set. Just out of camera shot 45 right, is a foamcore freestanding panel for passive fill. Finally, the creme on the sundae, is Broncolor C70 Monolight with Snoot and Handmade Grid from an olde Broncolor Honeycomb. Selecting lighting a small portion of the background. Just because

BTW my 500mm Compound was absolutely filthy inside, according to my repairman. So I'll bet yours would benefit from a good cleaning, too.

The older compound shutter from the Xenar 240mm was in worse condition.
One screw was still lying loose in the housing. On the photo you can also see that the release nipple is missing. I have no idea yet how to find a replacement.

It was enough to lightly clean the inside (without disassembling the individual components like iris, shutter) as well as cleaning the piston.

The inside of the newer compound shutter looks much cleaner. Still, the shorts times are slower. I suspect that cleaning the piston will give better results.

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[NormaN]

Something else to consider. Schneider's catalog lists your lens to cover the 6-1/2"x8-1/2" format, yet you want to shoot 8x10. And while your lens will likely cover 8x10 at portrait distances, it's also a fairly wide lens for that format. Unless you plan to make environmental portraits, you'll be right on top of your subjects, and you'll be dealing with the (traditionally unflattering) wide-angle perspective. Admittedly Chuck Close made a very successful career of it, but is that what you're looking for?


Hello Mark

You are right, it is not the ideal focal length.

I didn't know Chuck Close (his name says it all :) ). Interesting work, very own style

It's more Stephen DiRado's portraits that excite me. Most taken with the Fujinon 250 mm. He regularly posts in the Facebook group
Large Format Photography

Here an example:

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10158644235677919&set=gm.2043457305814154&idorvanity=134289370064300

And an example a bit more extreme with 165 mm:

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10158738815902919&set=gm.2088447047981846&idorvanity=134289370064300

[NormaN]

Apply Neutral Density filters as needed to achieve the shutter speed needed at the exposure aperture. Extremely common practice in cinema, video and still image making. The 4 f-stop and 10 f-stop ND filters in 100mm square are part of the B&W contrast filter set, polarizer filter and holder that lives in both the Linhof TK23s and 5x7 Sinar Norma outfit cases..

On camera filter holder solves the overly common issues of trying to find thread on filters to fit vintage lenses.


Bernice


Thank you Bernice

I haven't used density filters yet, actually no filters at all until now.

I haven't been working in large format for that long and portraits are still a bit stressful for me.

I rather have the problem to have too little light and then the decisions come: Open aperture more (less depth of field) or slower shutter speed (motion blur).

When using flash (something I haven't tried yet) the shutter should ideally be able to produce faster times?
I just don't know enough about that yet.

Basically it is always the same: Do I get the picture the way I want it, sharpness in the right place, etc.?

[Bernice Loui]

Two aspects to any photograph. The techno stuff, the creative artistic expressive stuff..

The techno stuff = camera, lens, lighting, film, processing, print making and....

The Creative artistic expressive stuff = how does the viewer of the image react to the image, initially then with the passage of time?

Which of the two does any given image maker value.. more or less? Add to this the subjectivity of how any image (in this case portraits)
might be judged by _?_

Regardless,

Positioning the camera/lens close up can add stress to the portrait sitter. This will impact the portrait sitter's expression that can or cannot be recorded by lens/camera/film or etc...

Being close up to the portrait sitter will result in lighting challenges and reduces what can and can never be done with lighting.. This is a style/image goal issue/question.

Using flash/strobe is another portrait sitter stress factor.. For some portrait sitters, they are stressed out waiting for that "Flash" to go off... followed by or before the flash -a- blinking the eyes...

Composition, lighting and expression of the portrait sitter.. important, Really important.. Keep in mind, expression, lighting, composition and those aspects of the portrait is often more significant, more important than lens/camera/etc...

Large exposure apertures specially on 8x10 translated to flattened point/plane of actual focus, if the sitter moves... even a tiny bit can result in shifting where the lens was focused.. This also places demands on the camera's registration of precision/accuracy between ground glass to film in the film holder as the margin for error is small. Stephen DiRado uses a 8x10 Sinar Norma which solves this issue nicely as the Norma is precise/accurate with ground glass to film in film holder registration, using the Sinar shutter addresses the shutter issue nicely, camera extension is a non-issue, Sinar on camera filter holder allows using most any combo of filters...

Image blur due to lower shutter speed can happen, same as if the portrait sitter moves slightly during film exposure..
What aids greatly to reduce this is to do all possible to comfort the portrait sitter, reduce all possible stress for the portrait sitter and as the portraitist, do all possible to aid in relaxing and comforting the portrait sitter.. This also means the portraitist must have self-confidence and assured abilities with the techno aspects of portrait making...

It all works together as a system, separations of any aspects often results in images that might not meet the image goals.


Bernice




Thank you Bernice

I haven't used density filters yet, actually no filters at all until now.

I haven't been working in large format for that long and portraits are still a bit stressful for me.

I rather have the problem to have too little light and then the decisions come: Open aperture more (less depth of field) or slower shutter speed (motion blur).

When using flash (something I haven't tried yet) the shutter should ideally be able to produce faster times?
I just don't know enough about that yet.

Basically it is always the same: Do I get the picture the way I want it, sharpness in the right place, etc.?

[mhayashi]

Hello all, thanks for your helpful replies!
@ mhayashi

I was able to unscrew the front two lenses. But the Haze cannot be cleaned with the conventional liquids(alcohol, lighter fluid) I have respect for experimenting with other liquids/methods.

Fortunately I have the mounting flange, it was just not on the picture
What I am interested in is how are the lenses held in the mounts? There are no visible "notches" to screw off. Are the lenses glued in place?

The compound shutter comes with the mounting flange that is fixed on the lens board.
It is different from the retaining ring as you expect from copal shutters.

Check the S.K. Grimes site for the good explanations.
https://skgrimes.com/products/mounting-flanges/

I’m not sure what you mean by haze, but if you see very small particles on the coating especially when you see the element from side, then I suspect the coating has the oxidation degradation.

Jason Lane can remove the coating then recoat, but considering the repair cost and the availability of your tessar, you might want to consider another sample.