Which 90mm Lens?

[Lightchaser]

Hi Folks,
Im just starting out in large format photography and I have purchased an Intrepid body. Im looking around for a 90mm lens and have seen two that I would like some advice on. They are both F8 which I realise is less ideal for focusing than the F5.6 but still manageable. One is clearly multicoated but not sure about the other. They do have different types of shutters, I think one is copal and the other may be a syncro? which I believe are not the most reliable. Any advice would be really helpful. They are being sold by a company that does have an excellent reputation and both items are marked as USED, EXCELLENT ++
235464

Thanks

[rfesk]

I would purchase the one that is multicoated with the Copal shutter with out a doubt - provided all else is the same between the two.

[BrianShaw]

I concur with the above.

Your current belief about “syncro” (I believe you intended to write ‘Synchro Compur’) is erroneous. They are excellent shutters that are finely engineered, and both accurate and precise when properly maintained. Too many people have claimed lack of reliability because they fail to properly maintain their equipment.

Are you sure that you want to start with a wide angle lens, though? Something in the normal FL range might be a better start as they are more versatile and sometimes less fussy to use.

[xkaes]

They are both Schneider lenses, but it would help if we had more info -- or more complete pictures.

And FYI, there are a LOT of other 90mm f8 lenses out there that are just as good -- and might be better suited for your particular needs and situation.

[djdister]

I would not buy any lens where the pictures only show it with lens caps on. What does the GLASS look like?

[ic-racer]

Im just starting out in large format photography I have purchased an Intrepid body.

90 is pretty wide. I know it is very popular, but they are not that easy to use for a beginner. Not as easy to see the effects of tilts, which will be in fractions of degrees, and shifts may be limited by coverage unless you get an expensive lens. The image will be dim also. To be in focus at all the camera would need calibrated detents on the center axes.

[xkaes]

One is clearly multicoated but not sure about the other. Thanks

In other words, you don't know. A lens can look multi-coated and not be, and a lens can multi-coated but not look like it is.

And in many cases, multi-coating doesn't make much or any difference.

Get the facts first. Look before you leap!

[rfesk]

Comparing lens field of view, horizontally speaking,- a 90mm lens on 4x5 is roughly equivalent to a 28mm lens on 35mm camera.
For my first lens I would prefer a 135mm or 150mm lens - unless my principal subject was architecture. Then a 90mm lens would have merit.

[Alan Klein]

The lenses you selected look very large physically. They probably won't fit the bellows for a 4x5 Intrepid. Also, the filter size looks very large. Also, 90mm often need a center filter which will make the BW filter size even bigger. I think you should get smaller physical wide angle lenses. It's also a good idea to start with a more "normal" lens like a 150mm. I'd also buy only multi coated. Check the reference pages in the forum on types of lenses to select.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/

[Alan Klein]

PS the second picture says Multicoated on the lens.

[Lightchaser]

Thanks

[Lightchaser]

Thanks for your advice. I do already have a Rodenstock 210mm lens but haven't really had the time to use it much. I was thinking the more I invest the more I will make time get out and start really using the camera, particularly with the wider lens option more suited too landscapes. My aim is to eventually to have a range of lenses that will cover all most things. I will probably go for a 135 or 150 next time.

[Lightchaser]

All lens recommendations welcome. Thanks

[Lightchaser]

The lenses you selected look very large physically. They probably won't fit the bellows for a 4x5 Intrepid. Also, the filter size looks very large. Also, 90mm often need a center filter which will make the BW filter size even bigger. I think you should get smaller physical wide angle lenses. It's also a good idea to start with a more "normal" lens like a 150mm. I'd also buy only multi coated. Check the reference pages in the forum on types of lenses to select.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/


Thanks for that really valuable info. I think I need to do a bit more research. I never thought about bellows size. With regards the centre filter I had read about this but many say it isn't always necessary.

[Lightchaser]

Apologies but struggling a bit with the how this site works. I have just realised after answering a few responses that I was supposed to enclose a quote first so the recipient realises Im responding to them!:(

[Lightchaser]

I would not buy any lens where the pictures only show it with lens caps on. What does the GLASS look like?

Oh no there are other photos showing really nice clean lenses I just didn't want to overload my post with too much!

[Jeff Keller]

The all black shutter (multicoated lens) stops down to f64 vs f45 for the other. If you wanted to take a long exposure (with slightly more diffraction) it would give you the option. I doubt I would notice the difference between the two unless something was wrong with one of them. If the price is the same, I would go for the newer one (higher lens serial number) otherwise I would probably go for the cheaper lens.

I hope you enjoy your camera.

jeff

[Bernice Loui]

Looks like a Schneider 90mm f8 super angulon in a later Compur shutter (late 60's to early 80's). Get an image of the lens front element, the serial number will give a date of production range using this chart:
https://ground-glass.net/schneider-lenses-age/

Prime difference between f8, f6.8 -vs- f4.5, f5.6 wide angle view camera lenses of the Biogon style is image circle, not ability to focus.. Yes, larger full aperture can aid in focusing but it is NOT the prime consideration to decide which wide angle lens.. It is much more about image circle, typical 90mm f8 will have an image circle of 216mm -vs- typical f5.6 or f4.5 image circle of 236mm exception being the Schneider 90mm f5.6 super angulon XL with a whopping image circle of 259mm and this WA lens is BIG, the rear element will not fit into a good number of field folders. Later versions of the 90mm SAXL had a modification to allow fitment into cameras with small lens board and front standard openings.. The other exception is the 90mm f8 sw Nikkor which has an image circle of 235mm in a small sized package.

Regardless, the camera (Intrepid) will be the limiting factor on lens performance via camera movement. 90mm lens means compressing the camera/bellows closer to the rear standard which greatly restricts camera movement ability. Solution to this is to use a bag bellows.

Check to see if the Intrepid's front lens board and front standard opening can fit the rear element of the lens of choice before deciding on any lens.. Which brings up the topic of "range of lenses"... camera's ability to properly support a given lens is dependent on the ability of the camera to compress it's distance between front to rear standards and ability to extend the distance between front to rear standards, remain rigid, stable, flexi free and allow minimal restriction of camera movement swing, tilt, shift, rise-fall for both front and rear camera standards.. Unlike lens fixed to the box cameras be they digital or film, view camera lenses are not designed/made with a fixed back focus distance. This demands the camera have the ability to do what the lens focal length demands..

Partial list of modern view camera lenses:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

Keep this in mind for any lens choice. The better way would have been to decide on image goals first, lenses needed to achieve these goals followed by camera that best fits these goals.

As for multicoating -vs- singe coating.. it makes less difference than believed due to the fact view camera lenses tend to be simpler with fewer lens elements than lenses made for digital or roll film cameras. This mean fewer air to glass surfaces to cause internal flare and reduction of light transmission. This is why a uncoated Dagor made circa 1900's produces excellent image contrast due to the limited number of air to glass surfaces. Improvement in flare/contrast is improved by simply casting a shadow on the lens front element using the film holder's dark slide or similar.. Better would be a compendium lens shade. The only image making situation where the most modern multi coatings might make a visual difference is in very extreme back lighting situations which is very specific and not a common way to use any lens..

~Condition of the shutter is one of the greater concerns as many of these shutters are decades young, cycled many, many, many thousands of cycles and often in need of proper care ala Clean-Lube-Adjust.. Vast film burning grief can be caused by a ill feeling shutter in need of proper care.

Do keep in mind, there were no "hobbyist" view camera lenses made by the big four, Schneider, Fujinon, Rodenstock, Nikkor. They designed and produced view camera lenses for folks back then using these lenses to put a roof over their studio, food on their table and keeping the bill collectors from busting down the front door..

There will be a tripod involved, don't skimp on this as the tripod and tripod head is often as or more important than the camera outfit. Tripod stability, vibration control, ability to easily adjust then hold settings and be durable-reliable over the passage of images made are the prime tripod considerations.


IMO, at this point better to make images with that 210mm lens instead of searching for another lens, what is most needed at the beginning of the LF view camera journey is practice, practice, practice burning a whole pile-O-sheet film. As for film exposure apertures, yes, modern view camera lenses are optimized for f22.. This does not and should not mean chronic film exposures at f22 or when in doubt of what is in perceived focus closing the lens down to the smallest aperture on the lens aperture scale.. as image quality will and absolutely does degrade post f45 due to diffraction and this is an unescapable way of Nature..
The cure for this is to apply camera movements as and when needed to improve what is perceived to be in focus. Know all lenses have a single point or plane of actual focus, making the lens aperture smaller improves what is perceived to be in focus.. This previously posted guide on camera movements is a worthy read.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164126-Importance-of-camera-movements-gt-Alan-amp-others-long-amp-Linhof



Bernice













Hi Folks,
Im just starting out in large format photography and I have purchased an Intrepid body. Im looking around for a 90mm lens and have seen two that I would like some advice on. They are both F8 which I realise is less ideal for focusing than the F5.6 but still manageable. One is clearly multicoated but not sure about the other. They do have different types of shutters, I think one is copal and the other may be a syncro? which I believe are not the most reliable. Any advice would be really helpful. They are being sold by a company that does have an excellent reputation and both items are marked as USED, EXCELLENT ++
235464

Thanks




Thanks for your advice. I do already have a Rodenstock 210mm lens but haven't really had the time to use it much. I was thinking the more I invest the more I will make time get out and start really using the camera, particularly with the wider lens option more suited too landscapes. My aim is to eventually to have a range of lenses that will cover all most things. I will probably go for a 135 or 150 next time.

[Mark Sampson]

Given good physical condition, any of the 90mm lenses commonly available should be just fine. They were all 'flagship' lenses for their makers, designed to serve a demanding professional clientele.
I've never found f/8 to be a problem when focusing. Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji, Nikon, Ilex, they're all good.

[Doremus Scudder]

Any of the common 90mm f/8 lenses should fit the Intrepid as far as being able to mount the lens is concerned. Bigger ones, like the f/5.6 versions may have a too-large rear element to make mounting the lens possible - I don't really know, since I haven't worked with the Intrepid, but that is the case with lots of wooden folding field cameras. You might have some issues with bellows compression when using extreme movements. It that is the case, then a recessed lens board will definitely help. All my 90mm and shorter lenses are on recessed boards.

Multi-coated is definitely a plus. I wouldn't worry so much about not having images of the glass itself if you're buying from a really reputable dealer like KEH. If not, get good pictures and a return possibility if the lens doesn't match the description.

FWIW, I think the f/5.6 90mm lenses are just too larger and heavy. Plus they need a rather larger filter. My 90mm lenses take 67mm filters, which is as large as I go (I like small and lightweight). Get a decent dark cloth and you won't have any problems focusing the f/8 lens.

Center filters are not really necessary if you plan on only working with black-and-white or even color negative film. The light fall-off (a characteristic of short-focal-length lenses; not a defect) is correctable when printing (or in post). If you plan on using color transparency film, a center filter will really be helpful. I've been photographing for 40+ years, black-and-white only now, and have never owned a center filter for my 90mm and shorter lenses. I do give extra exposure and burn in the center of the images when printing though if needed.

As for a lens kit: a 90mm and a 210mm are workhorse standard lenses in just about everyone's kit for good reason. Fill in the gap with a 135mm or a 150mm. My personal preference is for the 135mm, since you can crop the image to get the 150mm view, but not vice-versa. 150mm lenses, however, have bigger image circles than their shorter cousins, so choose according to need.

Have fun!

Doremus

[Paul Ron]

i have the 5.6 lens and love it!

[John Layton]

I've had great luck with my 90mm f/6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon-N (multi-coated) for both 4x5 and 5x7 formats. A nice compromise in that it is relatively compact yet still has decent brightness, which does help for focussing. Typically fairly reasonable price-wise also.

[Robert Opheim]

I bought my first wide angle a 92mm WA Dagor lens as my second lens, following a 180mm Symmar lens that came with the first 4x5 camera I purchased (this was in 1974). A 90mm is especially useful for landscape, architectural, and urban images. I also have a f/6.8 90mm Grandagon which is a great lens. It is my most often used lens for images of buildings. I used just these 2 lenses for many years - and still do use them. As mentioned above you do need to make images as much as possible!

[Lightchaser]

Any of the common 90mm f/8 lenses should fit the Intrepid as far as being able to mount the lens is concerned. Bigger ones, like the f/5.6 versions may have a too-large rear element to make mounting the lens possible - I don't really know, since I haven't worked with the Intrepid, but that is the case with lots of wooden folding field cameras. You might have some issues with bellows compression when using extreme movements. It that is the case, then a recessed lens board will definitely help. All my 90mm and shorter lenses are on recessed boards.

Multi-coated is definitely a plus. I wouldn't worry so much about not having images of the glass itself if you're buying from a really reputable dealer like KEH. If not, get good pictures and a return possibility if the lens doesn't match the description.

FWIW, I think the f/5.6 90mm lenses are just too larger and heavy. Plus they need a rather larger filter. My 90mm lenses take 67mm filters, which is as large as I go (I like small and lightweight). Get a decent dark cloth and you won't have any problems focusing the f/8 lens.

Center filters are not really necessary if you plan on only working with black-and-white or even color negative film. The light fall-off (a characteristic of short-focal-length lenses; not a defect) is correctable when printing (or in post). If you plan on using color transparency film, a center filter will really be helpful. I've been photographing for 40+ years, black-and-white only now, and have never owned a center filter for my 90mm and shorter lenses. I do give extra exposure and burn in the center of the images when printing though if needed.

As for a lens kit: a 90mm and a 210mm are workhorse standard lenses in just about everyone's kit for good reason. Fill in the gap with a 135mm or a 150mm. My personal preference is for the 135mm, since you can crop the image to get the 150mm view, but not vice-versa. 150mm lenses, however, have bigger image circles than their shorter cousins, so choose according to need.

Have fun!

Doremus

Thanks so much for your advice. A lot to go away and think about.

[Lightchaser]

I've had great luck with my 90mm f/6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon-N (multi-coated) for both 4x5 and 5x7 formats. A nice compromise in that it is relatively compact yet still has decent brightness, which does help for focussing. Typically fairly reasonable price-wise also.

Thankyou

[Lightchaser]

Looks like a Schneider 90mm f8 super angulon in a later Compur shutter (late 60's to early 80's). Get an image of the lens front element, the serial number will give a date of production range using this chart:
https://ground-glass.net/schneider-lenses-age/

Prime difference between f8, f6.8 -vs- f4.5, f5.6 wide angle view camera lenses of the Biogon style is image circle, not ability to focus.. Yes, larger full aperture can aid in focusing but it is NOT the prime consideration to decide which wide angle lens.. It is much more about image circle, typical 90mm f8 will have an image circle of 216mm -vs- typical f5.6 or f4.5 image circle of 236mm exception being the Schneider 90mm f5.6 super angulon XL with a whopping image circle of 259mm and this WA lens is BIG, the rear element will not fit into a good number of field folders. Later versions of the 90mm SAXL had a modification to allow fitment into cameras with small lens board and front standard openings.. The other exception is the 90mm f8 sw Nikkor which has an image circle of 235mm in a small sized package.

Regardless, the camera (Intrepid) will be the limiting factor on lens performance via camera movement. 90mm lens means compressing the camera/bellows closer to the rear standard which greatly restricts camera movement ability. Solution to this is to use a bag bellows.

Check to see if the Intrepid's front lens board and front standard opening can fit the rear element of the lens of choice before deciding on any lens.. Which brings up the topic of "range of lenses"... camera's ability to properly support a given lens is dependent on the ability of the camera to compress it's distance between front to rear standards and ability to extend the distance between front to rear standards, remain rigid, stable, flexi free and allow minimal restriction of camera movement swing, tilt, shift, rise-fall for both front and rear camera standards.. Unlike lens fixed to the box cameras be they digital or film, view camera lenses are not designed/made with a fixed back focus distance. This demands the camera have the ability to do what the lens focal length demands..

Partial list of modern view camera lenses:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

Keep this in mind for any lens choice. The better way would have been to decide on image goals first, lenses needed to achieve these goals followed by camera that best fits these goals.

As for multicoating -vs- singe coating.. it makes less difference than believed due to the fact view camera lenses tend to be simpler with fewer lens elements than lenses made for digital or roll film cameras. This mean fewer air to glass surfaces to cause internal flare and reduction of light transmission. This is why a uncoated Dagor made circa 1900's produces excellent image contrast due to the limited number of air to glass surfaces. Improvement in flare/contrast is improved by simply casting a shadow on the lens front element using the film holder's dark slide or similar.. Better would be a compendium lens shade. The only image making situation where the most modern multi coatings might make a visual difference is in very extreme back lighting situations which is very specific and not a common way to use any lens..

~Condition of the shutter is one of the greater concerns as many of these shutters are decades young, cycled many, many, many thousands of cycles and often in need of proper care ala Clean-Lube-Adjust.. Vast film burning grief can be caused by a ill feeling shutter in need of proper care.

Do keep in mind, there were no "hobbyist" view camera lenses made by the big four, Schneider, Fujinon, Rodenstock, Nikkor. They designed and produced view camera lenses for folks back then using these lenses to put a roof over their studio, food on their table and keeping the bill collectors from busting down the front door..

There will be a tripod involved, don't skimp on this as the tripod and tripod head is often as or more important than the camera outfit. Tripod stability, vibration control, ability to easily adjust then hold settings and be durable-reliable over the passage of images made are the prime tripod considerations.


IMO, at this point better to make images with that 210mm lens instead of searching for another lens, what is most needed at the beginning of the LF view camera journey is practice, practice, practice burning a whole pile-O-sheet film. As for film exposure apertures, yes, modern view camera lenses are optimized for f22.. This does not and should not mean chronic film exposures at f22 or when in doubt of what is in perceived focus closing the lens down to the smallest aperture on the lens aperture scale.. as image quality will and absolutely does degrade post f45 due to diffraction and this is an unescapable way of Nature..
The cure for this is to apply camera movements as and when needed to improve what is perceived to be in focus. Know all lenses have a single point or plane of actual focus, making the lens aperture smaller improves what is perceived to be in focus.. This previously posted guide on camera movements is a worthy read.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164126-Importance-of-camera-movements-gt-Alan-amp-others-long-amp-Linhof



Bernice

Thankyou for taking the time to advise me so comprehensively on Large format lenses and with specific reference to the intrepid. I thing your closing paragraph where you advise going out and shooting with my current 210 lens and becoming more familiar with the format makes great sense. I think I will put the 90mm idea on the back burner for now. Thanks again

[Lightchaser]

i have the 5.6 lens and love it!

Thats nice to know. Thanks

[angusparker]

Thankyou for taking the time to advise me so comprehensively on Large format lenses and with specific reference to the intrepid. I thing your closing paragraph where you advise going out and shooting with my current 210 lens and becoming more familiar with the format makes great sense. I think I will put the 90mm idea on the back burner for now. Thanks again

Wise advice. When you do come back to get a 90mm I would suggest the Nikkor 90mm f8, it is multicoated, there are usually quite a few for sale from Japan, and it uses a 67mm filter which is a pretty standard size. For my take on a lens set for 4x5 you can read this: https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/3/good-lenses-for-a-4x5-view-camera

[Bernard_L]

I was thinking the more I invest the more I will make time get out and start really using the camera

GAS? (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)

[John Layton]

Would strongly advise against going overboard with lenses and other equipment during this phase of your journey. Maybe add that 90, and perhaps either a 135 or 150 to your existing 210 - live with this (three lens) combo for awhile...and who knows, this might just be plenty for the long haul!

[xkaes]

Or get a set of "close-up filters" which can quickly tell you what other focal lengths you might like. You might already have some close-up (CU filters). If not, they are very inexpensive, used, and can be sold later -- or used.

How to quickly, easily, and inexpensively increase your lens arsenal

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm (http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm)

[Lightchaser]

Would strongly advise against going overboard with lenses and other equipment during this phase of your journey. Maybe add that 90, and perhaps either a 135 or 150 to your existing 210 - live with this (three lens) combo for awhile...and who knows, this might just be plenty for the long haul!

No your right, I intend to keep it simple and as you say hope to get the three lenses you mentioned to cover all possibilities.b

[Lightchaser]

Or get a set of "close-up filters" which can quickly tell you what other focal lengths you might like. You might already have some close-up (CU filters). If not, they are very inexpensive, used, and can be sold later -- or used.

How to quickly, easily, and inexpensively increase your lens arsenal

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm (http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm)

Thanks for that tip xkaes!

[Bernice Loui]

Three lenses does not cover ALL the possibilities, lens choice is completely dependent on image goals.. in the world of sheet film view camera the optical/lens possibilities are remarkable in too many ways..

This is the 38mm to 500mm lens set for the Linhof Technikardan 23s,
used with a Linhof 6x9 super rollex and 120 roll film.
235526

235528

They all get used depending on images to be made..

Regardless, the basic three, normal, wide, tele applies and is often more than enough for the vast majority of image making needs. The most important aspect of lens choice is driven by how to apply lens focal length ( normal, tele, wide) properly relating to image composition, image structure and those basic foundational elements of any 2D image. This is followed by choice of exposure aperture, which is a major factor in lens choice.

One of the great gifts from learning how to use a view camera has much to do with learning how to "see" and gaining a deeper understanding of composition, shapes, form, light, shadow .. these are the essential elements of any 2D image. The slowness of using a sheet film view camera has a tendency to promote this way of seeing and making images.. All of which directly translated to images made on other cameras from digital to roll film..

Or why simply burning a pile-O-film with a single lens at the beginning of the LF journey is SO very important as there is SO much to learn as the entire process of burning a single sheet of film is much different than a click of the shutter on a digital or roll film camera..

Have plenty-O-fun, Create Plenty-O-expressive images, Much about the journey, not always about the result.
Bernice



No your right, I intend to keep it simple and as you say hope to get the three lenses you mentioned to cover all possibilities.b

[neil poulsen]

I'm with ic-racer, 90mm is pretty wide. I have a 90mm, but I more often us a 105mm f8 SW Fujinon or a 121mm f8 Super Angulon. Both of these are larger sized lenses.

But if it has to be a 90mm, I would go for the 90mm f8 MC Nikon lens. It's smaller than the f5.6 90mm SW versions. It's an 8 element lens, whereas other f8 SW versions have 6 elements. At 235mm, it also has greater coverage than other 90mm f8 SW lenses.

[xkaes]

There's also the Fujinon NW 105mm f5.6 and CM-W 105mm f5.6. Not a HUGE image circle, but tiny, light, fast, & with great results.