Scanning Color Negative 4x5 Film

[neil poulsen]

Who in our USA does a good job scanning color negative 4x5 film and can get good colors?

Who's the best? And, who does a good job for a reasonable price?

Is drum scanning necessary to obtain a high quality scan?

[joho]

There is an alternative to your question —
have prints made [say size A3] from the negatives first, then home scan the photos …??
scanner being A3. therefore the bypass of the scanning of the negatives.

Please note, it is more difficult for drum scans of negatives due to the orange film base tint.

just an idea …

[koraks]

There is an alternative to your question —
have prints made [say size A3] from the negatives first, then home scan the photos …??

Unless you're making optical RA4 prints, or have that done (at considerable cost!) in a lab, printing a color negative these days virtually always involves first scanning it. Given this, it would be kind of odd to first have a lab scan it and print it, and then scan the print again.

Concerning the drum scan remark - since people have been successfully drum scanning C41 film for decades, I don't think it's much of a problem. At least it can be worked around. Besides, the same would be true for any other kind of scan; the orange mask is inherent to the film, after all. A scan from a flatbed will also have to be inverted and corrected for the mask. The only difference is that the scanner software may hide this part of the process from the user. It still happens.

@neil - your last question about a high quality scan: how do you define 'high quality'? What's e.g. your resolution or maximum print size requirement?
From a flatbed, expect roughly a 2000dpi real world resolution limit on a decent scanner (Epson V600 / V800). Practically, that means you can get a good (~360dpi) 20x25" print from a 4x5 from a consumer-level flatbed scan.

[Serge S]

I used to have optical prints done from color negatives (6x7) and then have them scanned at a commercial printer for catalogues & brochures (they used a high end flatbed). It worked well. A photo editor at a magazine suggested it to me.
I would also do my own B&W prints & scan them. It worked better at the time, as the consumer scanners (mid 90's) were not as good as the current V800.


Unless you're making optical RA4 prints, or have that done (at considerable cost!) in a lab, printing a color negative these days virtually always involves first scanning it. Given this, it would be kind of odd to first have a lab scan it and print it, and then scan the print again.

.

[Bruce Watson]

Please note, it is more difficult for drum scans of negatives due to the orange film base tint.

I'm a former drum scanner operator. I've drum scanned a ton of color negatives and did not find it either difficult nor time consuming. What I did find, is that scanning color negatives gave me higher quality scans than scanning color positives. This might have been due to the intrinsically better color accuracy compared to color positives; IDK. At least some of it was due to the photographers I scanned for; if they matched the dynamic range of the scene they photographed to the limited optical density range of the color positive film then scanning color positives was also easy.

As a photographer myself, I only used 4x5 negatives, both color and B&W, almost entirely Kodak TMY2, and Portra 400. Both scanned easily and gave beautiful results. Just sayin'.

[MultiFormat Shooter]

Who's the best? And, who does a good job for a reasonable price?

I have been happy with Alex Burke's work (https://www.alexburkephoto.com/drum-scanning), both negative and transparency.

I have no affiliation with him, other than being a satisfied customer.

[Mark Sampson]

Booksmart Studios in Rochester did a great job for me some years back. Not cheap, but excellent work. In fact I need to contact them, as I've found a few color negs in my files that need printing.
Edgar Praus, as mentioned above, does top-quality work, although I've never had him scan anything.
In Tucson, I used Photographic Works- but they've closed their lab business and only offer workshops now.
I recall member here Lenny Eiger as the master of scanning- IDK if he's still in business, haven't heard from him here in a long time.

[Joseph Kashi]

What about using a plug-in like Negative Lab Pro to do the processing of LF color negatives after personally scanning with a decent film scanner like a used Epson V700, V750, or V800 or a used/newV850 and the Epson wet scanning film holder that works up to 5x7 ? Total cost would not be unaffordable, and likely a savings over time compared to the cost of decent lab scans?

[Alan Klein]

I'm a former drum scanner operator. I've drum scanned a ton of color negatives and did not find it either difficult nor time consuming. What I did find, is that scanning color negatives gave me higher quality scans than scanning color positives. This might have been due to the intrinsically better color accuracy compared to color positives; IDK. At least some of it was due to the photographers I scanned for; if they matched the dynamic range of the scene they photographed to the limited optical density range of the color positive film then scanning color positives was also easy.

As a photographer myself, I only used 4x5 negatives, both color and B&W, almost entirely Kodak TMY2, and Portra 400. Both scanned easily and gave beautiful results. Just sayin'.

I've found that color negative film is hard to get the color right, especially with Ektar. What process do you use?

[neil poulsen]

I've found that color negative film is hard to get the color right, especially with Ektar. What process do you use?

That's the reason that I want to send this 4x5 color negative to a service. Hopefully, they can get the color right. I was thinking of sending a Type C photograph that I printed long ago of the negative. It shows the colors that I want.

I'd like to go as high as a 32"x40" print, which I calculate to about a 120MP file. Is that possible, even with FlexTight technology?

Thanks for all the input.

[Alan Klein]

That's the reason that I want to send this 4x5 color negative to a service. Hopefully, they can get the color right. I was thinking of sending a Type C photograph that I printed long ago of the negative. It shows the colors that I want.

I'd like to go as high as a 32"x40" print, which I calculate to about a 120MP file. Is that possible, even with FlexTight technology?

Thanks for all the input.

I'm not familiar with FLextight. But my Epson V850 set at 2400bpi and 48 bit color provides a 520MB tiff file at 10959 x 8455 bit resolution for a 4x5" chrome. That's 36" x 28" at 300 bit per inch printing.

I've not tried printing my scans. Maybe someone else has and give some of their results regarding printing quality of the Epson.

[Drew Wiley]

Neil - get a either an actual pro shop drum scan or via a high-end,expensive flatbed scanner like a Creo. If your 4x5 neg is still good, a 30X40 output print should be no problem.

How it gets printed is a second question. But yes, if they have a physical C print in their hands of how you want the result to look, it would certainly help. I don't know who provides that kind of service in Oregon. Prints can be outputted either inkjet or by big pro laser printers onto RA4 media itself.

Of course, being a color neg, the most direct manner is to simply to enlarge the original neg directly onto RA4 chromogenic paper, optically. The only advantage an intermediate scan would provide is a convenient manner for digitally tweaking the contrast and hue saturation a bit higher due to the greater amount of enlargement involved, relative to your earlier print size, as well as correcting for the probability of your negative itself has faded somewhat over time.

The same RA4 papers, even in big roll widths, which are used for commercial laser printing devices are also excellent for commercial optical enlargers, though not many labs offer that service anymore. Some do. Some of us still do it ourselves that way, of course.

[Bruce Watson]

I've found that color negative film is hard to get the color right, especially with Ektar. What process do you use?

My old ColorGetter 3 Pro did a good job with the analyzing and removing the orange color correction masking. It's a combination of scanner firmware and the ColorRight Pro 2.0 software for the ancient MAC that it requires (runs under MacOS 9.2 IIRC). This scanner was designed to be a "generalist" and can handle color negatives, color positives, and B&W negatives all quite well. Other drum scanners were aimed at the magazine pre-press market (aka advertising) where WYSIWYG was more of a requirement, so were optimized for trannies.

Properly set up, ColorGetters can get the colors very close, to the point where the occasional small touchup with Photoshop was a piece o' cake. That said, it got colors on trannies close too -- but all trannies need some touchup in my experience, because they *lack* that color correction mask. But if they had it, they wouldn't be trannies. Kodak's dilemma: correct color vs. WYSIWYG. Both have their places, they solve different problems.

I should point out that just about all color films, positive or negative, will need some correction during printing. For one thing, the films are expecting to be exposed at a given color temperature, and hardly anyone ever sees the exact correct conditions when out in the field. For another thing, I try to separate out the color correction step from the color grading step (movie industry term). Color correction gets you to the starting gate. Color grading is where the artist manipulates the image to support the mood or help support the story the artist wants the image to tell. I tried to end my participation at color corrections. I never want to get in the way of an artist telling the story they want to tell, the way they want to tell it.

So I wouldn't advise anyone to worry too much about getting exact color during scanning. Get close enough where making the final decisions is easy, and that's about the best you can do.

[neil poulsen]

Neil - get a either an actual pro shop drum scan or via a high-end,expensive flatbed scanner like a Creo. If your 4x5 neg is still good, a 30X40 output print should be no problem.

Drew,

Thanks, that's what I'm after! Can you recommend a pro shop that can provide a well, color-corrected drum scan?

Neil

[neil poulsen]

. . . Properly set up, ColorGetters can get the colors very close, to the point where the occasional small touchup with Photoshop was a piece o' cake. . .

Thanks. Is this still being sold? I'm interested.

For now, I want to go with a pro shop. But once I get a new computer, I would like to find software that can effectively deal with the orange mask. For example, I can't get ColorNeg now, because my computer's too old.

[Bruce Watson]

Thanks. Is this still being sold? I'm interested.

Sorry, but no. Optronics (once owned by Intergraph) seemed to disappear in the early 2000s. Don't know what happened to any of the ColorGetter IP, spare parts, documentation, any of it. I looked for it -- wanted to pick up service and alignment tools. No luck however.

My best estimate is that R&D ended about 1996, and the last of the scanners was sold around 1998 maybe. Then... poof.

If you want a new drum scanner, your best bet is probably Aztek (http://www.aztek.com/company.html) in CA. Last drum scanner maker standing supposedly. I heard (completely unreliably) about 10 years or so ago that Aztek made a new run of parts for their Premier scanner -- and were selling Premiers in the single digits per year rate (less than one a month). They were still maintaining all the Howtek scanners too.

The Aztek Digital PhotoLab software (looks like up to Windows 10 now) is supposed to be excellent. I've never used it however. Supposed to make quick work of the orange mask on negatives. That's really all I know about it. Call them.

If you can find Lenny Eiger (https://lennyeiger.com/about/) (used to post here) in CA he can talk to you in depth about Aztek. He was running a Premiere last I heard and was close enough to Aztek that he had visited them a few times. Which would probably make him the best source on this board for all things Aztek.

Lenny used to provide drum scanning and printing services too. He may be retired from that, IDK.

[Alan Klein]

My old ColorGetter 3 Pro did a good job with the analyzing and removing the orange color correction masking. It's a combination of scanner firmware and the ColorRight Pro 2.0 software for the ancient MAC that it requires (runs under MacOS 9.2 IIRC). This scanner was designed to be a "generalist" and can handle color negatives, color positives, and B&W negatives all quite well. Other drum scanners were aimed at the magazine pre-press market (aka advertising) where WYSIWYG was more of a requirement, so were optimized for trannies.

Properly set up, ColorGetters can get the colors very close, to the point where the occasional small touchup with Photoshop was a piece o' cake. That said, it got colors on trannies close too -- but all trannies need some touchup in my experience, because they *lack* that color correction mask. But if they had it, they wouldn't be trannies. Kodak's dilemma: correct color vs. WYSIWYG. Both have their places, they solve different problems.

I should point out that just about all color films, positive or negative, will need some correction during printing. For one thing, the films are expecting to be exposed at a given color temperature, and hardly anyone ever sees the exact correct conditions when out in the field. For another thing, I try to separate out the color correction step from the color grading step (movie industry term). Color correction gets you to the starting gate. Color grading is where the artist manipulates the image to support the mood or help support the story the artist wants the image to tell. I tried to end my participation at color corrections. I never want to get in the way of an artist telling the story they want to tell, the way they want to tell it.

So I wouldn't advise anyone to worry too much about getting exact color during scanning. Get close enough where making the final decisions is easy, and that's about the best you can do.

What the best adjsutment to do to get the color right after the scan using my NEC monitor which I can calibrate to anything. Some of the options it came calibrated wiht are:
Photo Editing (intensity is at 140cd)
Print Standard (intensity is at 90cd)
sRGB Emulation (allows max CD at about 204CD)

Then I can adjust to anything else including sRGB at whatever intensity I want or other color gamuts.

I'm adjusting for the web right now. Which would you recommend?

Tks.

[yuexiachou29]

Bruce,
Have you Imacon scanned your 4x5 negative? notice any difference from Drum scan?

I'm a former drum scanner operator. I've drum scanned a ton of color negatives and did not find it either difficult nor time consuming. What I did find, is that scanning color negatives gave me higher quality scans than scanning color positives. This might have been due to the intrinsically better color accuracy compared to color positives; IDK. At least some of it was due to the photographers I scanned for; if they matched the dynamic range of the scene they photographed to the limited optical density range of the color positive film then scanning color positives was also easy.

As a photographer myself, I only used 4x5 negatives, both color and B&W, almost entirely Kodak TMY2, and Portra 400. Both scanned easily and gave beautiful results. Just sayin'.

[Bruce Watson]

Bruce,
Have you Imacon scanned your 4x5 negative? notice any difference from Drum scan?

Nope -- I have no experience with Imacon.