Heico Perma-Wash vs. Ilford Wash-Aid Logistics?

[John Layton]

Preface: When I print these days I’m typically in the darkroom for three to six hours on a given day, and might fully process, wash, and dry from two to five 16X20 prints during this time period. Furthermore, as I’m printing a bit less these days…I might be in the darkroom only one day per week, and sometimes less.

Given both the above scenario and/or my somewhat earlier one of pulling two or three six to eight (sometimes twelve) hour darkroom sessions per week, over the course of which I might process, wash, and dry fifteen to twenty five(ish) 16X20’s, I’d found, that as a fixer remover, Heico Perma Wash has fit my needs perfectly, with a working-solution capacity of ten 16X20’s per gallon, and shelf life of 90 days for that same gallon, if full and capped. Furthermore, as the Perma Wash concentrate is diluted 3oz per gallon to make a working solution, I’ve found it very workable over the years to purchase Perma Wash concentrate in the one-liter size.

When I’d recently needed to re-order my trusty liter of Heico Perma-Wash, I’d noticed that there is now a minimum order of 6 (through B+H), which I then looked upon as an opportunity to give Ilford Wash-Aid a try.

So I get my one-liter bottle of Ilford Wash-Aid, and notice that its specifics for dilution, capacity, and shelf-life are completely different than those for Perma-Wash. For example, the dilution from concentrate to working solution is one plus 4 (five parts total), meaning that the one liter bottle gives me five liters of working mix. The problem arises in the capacity and shelf life of this working solution, with the capacity being 40 16X20 prints per gallon (appx.), and a shelf life of one week!

And there is no way that anything less than about one gallon of working solution can be safe and effective for my typical output of 16x20 prints.

Finally, the cost of creating a one gallon working mix of Ilford Wash-Aid is approximately 21.60, which equates to around 50 cents per 16X20 print (assuming I’d work it to capacity prior to exhaustion), while the cost of creating a gallon of Perma Wash working mix is appx. 2.00, which equates to 20 cents per print, and while its per (working) gallon capacity is much less than that with Wash-Aid, I can always mix more if I need to, and if I don’t come close to reaching this capacity during a given print session, I have up to 89 additional days before it goes kaput! In other words, I basically always use Perma Wash to its full capacity. (not an exact science, but you get my drift)

About the only scenario in which I could see Ilford Wash-Aid being at all cost effective/efficient for my needs would be if I were to go “full bore” for that one week, pre-exhaustion time period, and over this time process, wash, and dry 40 16X20 prints! Back in the day? Maybe. But these days? Nope!

At any rate…I’ve been ranting and blathering long enough, and have just noticed that Adorama sells individual liter bottles of Perma-Wash, although it looks backordered for the time being. I’d go with the gallon bottle of Perma Wash concentrate…but can find nothing published about the shelf life of Perma Wash concentrate, either in full or partially full bottles. Anybody here know this? Thanks! Any comments relating to personal experiences with either of these products would be most welcome! Also...am I missing something here?

(As for other wash aids, the only one I’d used in any quantity was the Sprint “Fixer Remover” formulation…but found problems with this going bad prematurely).

[paulbarden]

John, have you considered buying 5 or 10 pounds of Sodium sulfite and making your own?

[Oren Grad]

What method are you using to determine the useful life (both number of prints and shelf life) of your wash aid?

[Erik Larsen]

I’m with Paul here. Just add 4 tablespoons of sodium sulfite to a gallon just prior to use and discard when finished. Very cheap this way. Although I do like the idea of supporting our suppliers of chemistry to keep them motivated but hypo clear cost more to package than its contents are worth.

[Mark Sampson]

FWIW, Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent contains a little sodium bisulfite as well.

[Bernice Loui]

Heico's Perea-Wash is rumored to contain Sulfur Soap in some concentration..

Could anyone verify this as rumor or true to some degree?


Bernice

[John Layton]

Oren - I will typically use pretty much any solution to just a bit more than one half its stated capacity, area-wise...and usually much less than this, time-wise. I also do "spot checks" on occasion for residual silver and so far, so good.

Paul and Eric - I've been thinking about DIY-ing this, and actually think I've got some sodium sulfite around someplace.

[Doremus Scudder]

John,

Personally, I've always been skeptical of Heico Perma Wash and its capacity claims. "If it seems too good to be true..."

Kodak had the world's top photographic chemistry R&D labs for decades. The best they (and Ilford) could come up with for a wash aid was a sodium sulfite solution with a bit of pH adjustment (usually in the form of bisulfite/metabisulfite) and chelating agents, etc.

As far as logistics go, I have a couple comments. First I do fine with two liters of solution for 16x20 prints using Paterson 16x20 trays, which are oversized and pretty deep (that's for every solution in the process; developer, stop, fix one and two, and the wash aid). I'll wager you can get by with two liters of wash aid instead of a whole gallon, which is definitely overkill for five 16x20 prints.

Second, I second the suggestion to simply mix your own wash aid one-session using raw chemicals. If your tap water doesn't contain a lot of dissolved minerals, then a Tablespoon of sodium sulfite and a generous pinch of sodium bisulfite per liter is all you need. If you can get by using just two liters of solution then your expenditure is just two Tbsp. sulfite and a bit of bisulfite per session.

With a water rinse before the wash aid (recommended!), then the capacity for this mix is, like the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, 200 8x10s per gallon, or roughly 50 8x10s per liter (half that without the rinse before treatment in wash aid). That means you could get 25 16x20s from two liters of solution if you wanted. Still, it would likely be cheap enough that you could discard the solution every session unless you planned on printing again the following day, in which case it could be saved for use in the second session. You don't want to store the working solution for more than a couple of days since it both oxidizes and loses activity and tends to grow bacterial slime.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[Michael R]

Sodium sulfite is the “gold standard” HCA, with plenty of data behind it. Heico Perma Wash might use a different mechanism, although besides ammonium sulfite and a detergent/surfactant the ingredients are trade secrets so it is difficult to say. I would stick with Kodak/Ilford or the home made variety which is functionally the same.


John,

Personally, I've always been skeptical of Heico Perma Wash and its capacity claims. "If it seems too good to be true..."

Kodak had the world's top photographic chemistry R&D labs for decades. The best they (and Ilford) could come up with for a wash aid was a sodium sulfite solution with a bit of pH adjustment (usually in the form of bisulfite/metabisulfite) and chelating agents, etc.

As far as logistics go, I have a couple comments. First I do fine with two liters of solution for 16x20 prints using Paterson 16x20 trays, which are oversized and pretty deep (that's for every solution in the process; developer, stop, fix one and two, and the wash aid). I'll wager you can get by with two liters of wash aid instead of a whole gallon, which is definitely overkill for five 16x20 prints.

Second, I second the suggestion to simply mix your own wash aid one-session using raw chemicals. If your tap water doesn't contain a lot of dissolved minerals, then a Tablespoon of sodium sulfite and a generous pinch of sodium bisulfite per liter is all you need. If you can get by using just two liters of solution then your expenditure is just two Tbsp. sulfite and a bit of bisulfite per session.

With a water rinse before the wash aid (recommended!), then the capacity for this mix is, like the Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, 200 8x10s per gallon, or roughly 50 8x10s per liter (half that without the rinse before treatment in wash aid). That means you could get 25 16x20s from two liters of solution if you wanted. Still, it would likely be cheap enough that you could discard the solution every session unless you planned on printing again the following day, in which case it could be saved for use in the second session. You don't want to store the working solution for more than a couple of days since it both oxidizes and loses activity and tends to grow bacterial slime.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[Doremus Scudder]

Sodium sulfite is the “gold standard” HCA, with plenty of data behind it. Heico Perma Wash might use a different mechanism, although besides ammonium sulfite and a detergent/surfactant the ingredients are trade secrets so it is difficult to say. I would stick with Kodak/Ilford or the home made variety which is functionally the same.

My sentiments exactly!

[Tin Can]

I was never taught to use anything except fresh COLD water

Water was treated Lake Michigan

Now I am down river with again endless municipal water for wash

I have many mounted and unmounted FB prints stored interleaved

Most now 25 years old

Perfect, water gets cheaper the more I use

Basically slow drain for 1 hour only

I do not water my lawn or huge trees

I interject as novice may think everyone MUST use chems

[John Layton]

Doremous - and everyone...thank you so much for the above. This has long been one of those "someday I'll get around to this" things, but the truth of the matter is that doing one's own mix is so very simple, effective, and cost efficient.

Will make sure I've got some sulfite or order some, and in the meantime use up this batch of Ilford Wash-Aid.

And make no mistake...I am in no way meaning to show any disrespect to Ilford. Indeed, I think I can speak for many (if not most) of us here that we are so very lucky to have Ilford around to help us keep our passion alive and well!

[Tin Can]

https://thesouthern.com/news/state-and-regional/road-salts-wash-into-mississippi-river-damaging-ecosystems-and-pipes/article_5bfd4c75-995a-58ae-83a5-a3e603b74909.html?utm_source=thesouthern.com&utm_campaign=%2Fnewsletter-templates%2Fnews-alert&utm_medium=PostUp&lctg=1293804&tn_email_eh1=2c5e37d327acad278e001cb3bd0417d50461227c

[Michael R]

Water works fine. HCA is not a necessary step. All HCA does is make FB print washing a lot more efficient so for people wanting to minimize water consumption and/or time/effort HCA is useful.


I was never taught to use anything except fresh COLD water

Water was treated Lake Michigan

Now I am down river with again endless municipal water for wash

I have many mounted and unmounted FB prints stored interleaved

Most now 25 years old

Perfect, water gets cheaper the more I use

Basically slow drain for 1 hour only

I do not water my lawn or huge trees

I interject as novice may think everyone MUST use chems

[nolindan]

Useful formulae:

Testing for residual hypo - see if the PermaWash really has the capacity claimed - from https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Archival/archival.html

Kodak® Hypo Test Solution HT-2
Distilled Water . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
28% Acetic Acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125 ml
Silver Nitrate, Crystals . . . . . . . . . . . . 7.5 g
Distilled Water to Make . . . . . . . . . . . 1 l
(Store in a tightly sealed brown glass bottle away from strong light sources. This solution stains everything it touches, so don’t splash it around.)

To use for paper, place one drop on the border of the print, let it stand for 2 minutes, then rinse with water. If the print is thoroughly washed the solution will produce only a very faint tea-colored stain, or possibly no stain at all. If it is inadequately washed, the solution will produce a rather dark tea-colored stain. To judge the stains accurately you should purchase a Kodak® Hypo Estimator, which costs about $3.

To use for film, cut off a small piece of film and drop it into the test solution for 3 minutes. Properly washed films should show virtually no discoloration.

234875

The best guess for Kodak HCA, results in a pH close to gelatine's isoelectric point. Source - Richard Knoppow

1 liter stock solution, dilute 1:4 for use:

EDTA..............5 gm
S. Sulfite.....100 gm
S. Bisulfite.....20 gm
S. Citrate........5 gm

[Greg]

Probably 20 years ago I was visiting one of our State of Connecticut's surplus stores. On the floor were two unopened cases of 5 pound plastic bottles of Kodak Sodium Sulfite. Marked $5.00 for each of the cases. I asked how much if I bought both cases? $8.00. Without a bit of hesitation acquired both of the cases. Turned 75 last December. I figure I have enough of Sodium Sulfite that I will ever need....

[Fred L]

probably 20 years ago i was visiting one of our state of connecticut's surplus stores. On the floor were two unopened cases of 5 pound plastic bottles of kodak sodium sulfite. Marked $5.00 for each of the cases. I asked how much if i bought both cases? $8.00. Without a bit of hesitation acquired both of the cases. Turned 75 last december. I figure i have enough of sodium sulfite that i will ever need....

score !!!

[Mark NY]

About the only scenario in which I could see Ilford Wash-Aid being at all cost effective/efficient for my needs would be if I were to go “full bore” for that one week, pre-exhaustion time period, and over this time process, wash, and dry 40 16X20 prints! Back in the day? Maybe. But these days? Nope!

I did something similar to this for a show I scored back in 2010. 90 10x10 prints on Galerie - 30 for the show and I made 2 additional prints while I had the neg in the carrier. Used the Ilford Wash Aid. Today my back hurts just thinking about it LOL.

[Renato Tonelli]

The price for Heico Perma Wash gone up quite a bit over the past couple of years; enough for me to consider switching to Ilford Wash-Aid or others.
What I like about Perma Wash is that it is very concentrated and a 32oz bottle will go a long way. I wouldn't discount their claims so fast - Perma Wash has been around a very long time and touted by many darkroom printers.

[John Layton]

...I've been using Perma Wash for years and years (half a century?)...and prints have held up perfectly (so far!)

[Gary Beasley]

It takes me a long time to use up a gallon jug of Permawash concentrate. I recently needed more and found it on Amazon of all places.

[Duolab123]

I use Kodak Hypo clearing agent. You might try Freestyle for Heico, these guys and Unique Photo ship liquids ground UPS.

[Doremus Scudder]

The MSDS for Sprint's Fixer Remover lists the following ingredients:


Sodium metabisulfite <10%
Potassium salts of diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid <10%
Ethylene Glycol 107-21-1 <5%
Glutaraldehyde <2%
Formaldehyde <0.2%

Sodium Sulfite is conspicuously absent (as it is in Heico Perma Wash).

I'm interested in the opinion of the chemists on the forum about how this formula works and how it compares to sulfite-based wash aids like the Ilford and Kodak products. Is it better? Worse? Hocus-pocus?

TIA

Doremus

[Bernice Loui]

Quick note on using wash aids.. Reduction in water usage. This is and has become a very serious consideration today as the supply of water is no longer so plentiful and to be taken for granted.


Bernice

[PRJ]

Sodium Sulfite
Water
Tray

Doesn't get much easier....

[MartinP]

I found it quite practical, and also cost-effective, to put a pack of the Kodak product (a single powder in a large sachet) in an airtight jar and weigh out the appropriate mount for the session when needed. It worked out as 27g of product per litre of working solution I think. The stuff is almost entirely sodium sulfite, so there isn't a huge danger of having an unmixed product in your spoonful of powder. Probably sodium sulfite is cheaper, but the Kodak product is more easily available in a normal photo-stockist and still isn't expensive.

[Duolab123]

I found it quite practical, and also cost-effective, to put a pack of the Kodak product (a single powder in a large sachet) in an airtight jar and weigh out the appropriate mount for the session when needed. It worked out as 27g of product per litre of working solution I think. The stuff is almost entirely sodium sulfite, so there isn't a huge danger of having an unmixed product in your spoonful of powder. Probably sodium sulfite is cheaper, but the Kodak product is more easily available in a normal photo-stockist and still isn't expensive.

This is a great idea. I suppose a small measure, like used for measuring ground coffee, could be calibrated to deliver 27 grams. I usually make up the gallon of Kodak Hypo clearing agent stock, save a half gallon in a full bottle, dilute the rest to working strength and store in a 2 1/2 gallon container with a spigot and floating lid. Stuff will keep forever away from oxygen.

[John Layton]

Have located my sodium sulfite and will mix a washing-aid working solution as others have suggested, and I have two questions:

One - I have some bisulfite as well, but as my needs are only for prints and not films, I'm guessing that it would be unnecessary to add this bisulfite to the mix. Is this correct? (BTW, my water supply is quite well balanced, neither excessively hard nor soft)

Two - Timing (rinse/washing-aid/final wash) recommendations for "archival" washing of fiber based prints with this DIY sulfite-only mix? Thanks!

[Michael R]

Bisulfite is added to lower the pH of a fresh plain sodium sulfite solution, which tends to reduce the chances of precipitation of calcium etc. from tap water. That's the only reason the bisulfite is there. Alternatively mix the sulfite with distilled water. Theoretically the bath is a little more efficient at the higher pH of plain sodium sulfite but I wouldn't worry about it.

20g sodium sulfite/l + a few grams bisulfite is fine. In solution it's all the same. It is the sulfite ion that does the work, whether supplied by sodium sulfite or bisulfite/metabisulfite.

Follow Ilford's archival sequence (ie 10 minutes in the HCA bath with agitation). The short water wash before HCA treatment is important. Don't skip that or else the effectiveness/capacity of the HCA bath will be substantially reduced.

[John Layton]

Thanks Michael! Interesting though...that from what I can see the Ilford formula is similar to Kodak's - but their suggested times are quite different...with HCA listed as 1min. rinse, 3min HCA, 20min. wash, while Ilford's is listed as 5min. rinse, 10 min. Wash-Aid, 5 min. wash.

Then again...Kodak does not suggest any "archival method specific" protocols for their product, but my sense from their suggested 20 minute final wash is that their suggested timing sequence would be effective.

Perhaps a longer soak in a clearing agent equals a more effective (therefore shorter) final wash? Hmmm...

[Michael R]

The fixing process is a critical variable in determining how washing needs to be done. Kodak's recommendations are somewhat old as well as vague in the sense there is not much focus on the type of fixer. Ilford's method is predicated upon a short (but complete) fix in a non-hardening, film-strength rapid fixer, and conservative fixer throughput capacity. These requirements make it easier for water to dissolve/remove thiosulfate compounds from the paper base of FB papers (the paper is the difficult part to wash, not the emulsion). The longer HCA bath also helps shorten subsequent water wash times.

It's not that Kodak is wrong. There are obviously different ways/combinations that will work equally well, including longer wash times without HCA the old fashioned way. The "fail safe" is to do a retained thiosulfate test for whatever process you try or decide on.


Thanks Michael! Interesting though...that from what I can see the Ilford formula is similar to Kodak's - but their suggested times are quite different...with HCA listed as 1min. rinse, 3min HCA, 20min. wash, while Ilford's is listed as 5min. rinse, 10 min. Wash-Aid, 5 min. wash.

Then again...Kodak does not suggest any "archival method specific" protocols for their product, but my sense from their suggested 20 minute final wash is that their suggested timing sequence would be effective.

Perhaps a longer soak in a clearing agent equals a more effective (therefore shorter) final wash? Hmmm...

[olesquint]

The old Agfa Sistan formula used potassium thiocyanate (10%-20% per MSDS sheet). It now called Adox Adostab Ii at Fotoimpex. Anybody want to speak to the efficacy of this solution and if it's able to be formulated easily?

[jnantz]

It takes me a long time to use up a gallon jug of Permawash concentrate. I recently needed more and found it on Amazon of all places.

I bought a gallon of the stuff IDK almost 20 years ago and I'm still using it, 1 shot, around 4drams / L never had issues...
when I run out I'll just buy a gallon cube of the sprint stuff, and I'll use it 1 shot ..