Thinking of getting a 4x5 enlarger - thoughts vs scanning

[Serge S]

Hello !

I have been thinking of getting a 4x5 enlarger - been scanning everything these days on a V800 Epson.
I am soliciting opinions from others who have gone back to printing - is it worth the effort?
Overcomplicating things? (I also shoot 5x7, but I can get a nice 4x5 enlarger for a moderate price locally)
I usually only print to 11 x14.

Thanks in advance!

Serge

[xkaes]

Everyone will have different opinions on this, and there are PROS and CONS to both -- so a lot of people, like me, do both.

I guess a lot depends on what you want to do with your negatives, and how your want to create your prints.

For me, taking the picture is only STEP #1. Creating the image is STEP #2, and despite what some people might say, there are some things you can only do under an enlarger.

[Serge S]

Everyone will have different opinions on this, and there are PROS and CONS to both -- so a lot of people, like me, do both.

I guess a lot depends on what you want to do with your negatives, and how your want to create your prints.

For me, taking the picture is only STEP #1. Creating the image is STEP #2, and despite what some people might say, there are some things you can only do under an enlarger.

Yes that's true.
I am a bit addicted to tweaking the scan :)
I think you are right - both are good to have available - enlarger & scanning capability.
So many options!

[Ulophot]

Well, Serge, over-complication is certainly open to interpretation, even over-interpretation. My vote is for the darkroom and the pleasure of making silver prints. I'm guessing that you have previous darkroom printing experience, but if not, it's lots of fun; indeed, it may be my favorite part of the whole process. Although I have done quite a bit of Photoshop work, it's not my preference at all. I prefer the challenges of not being able to manipulate with the freedom of digital. I didn't want to be a painter, or a digital wiz, and not have to deal with the peculiarities of the straight photographic image and strive to make beautiful prints from the un-retouched negatives. I don;t want to have the easy option of retouching out something I didn't want to include in the photo. The traditional path suits me just fine, and I prefer the darkroom to sitting at a computer any day. I love it as much as I did when I first became entranced with it in 1968.

[xkaes]

If you have the space and a good deal, I'd go for it. I assume you have the know-how and at least some of the gear -- trays, tubes, timers, lenses, sink, etc., etc. You can get most darkroom gear for next to nothing nowadays!!!

[xkaes]

I prefer the darkroom to sitting at a computer any day.

Same with reading a book or even a newspaper. LOTS of people do it on a computer/tablet/phone all the time, but it's just not enjoyable for me. Time in a darkroom? I wish I had more of it -- and unlike reading a book, I can have music playing on the stereo!

[Mark Sampson]

My questions here would be-

Are you making inkjet prints from your scans now?
if so, are you happy with the results?
Do you think a silver print would look better? (They will be different.)
Do you have the time and energy to devote to a new craft?

I think it's a good idea, if you have space, money, and the desire.
But then the silver print is my chosen medium; best of luck with however you go.

[jp]

If you have the space and money, go for it.
The other option is contact printing if 4x5" prints are acceptable. I use LF mostly for soft focus work and that is best contact printed, so I have a fully equipped darkroom with a 4x5 enlarger that doesn't get much use.
If you're into sharp bigger prints, it's a good tool.
I am not unhappy with inkjet prints, but consider it a different output medium than silver gelatin darkroom prints. Silver prints are their own thing and can look great.

[Michael R]

Basically if you are interested in darkroom work go for it. That's really the remaining reason to make darkroom prints.

The nice thing is that since you already scan you can combine the two processes for the best of both worlds. For example you can scan your negatives to make inkjet masks for use in the enlarger/darkroom.


Hello !

I have been thinking of getting a 4x5 enlarger - been scanning everything these days on a V800 Epson.
I am soliciting opinions from others who have gone back to printing - is it worth the effort?
Overcomplicating things? (I also shoot 5x7, but I can get a nice 4x5 enlarger for a moderate price locally)
I usually only print to 11 x14.

Thanks in advance!

Serge

[Alan9940]

IMO, darkroom prints vs digital prints is not a question of which is better, rather they're simply different. I do both. I enjoy working in the darkroom and the sheer beauty of a well crafted silver print. On my best days, I've made silver prints that appear to "glow" with light; of all the desktop prints I've made I've never seen that phenomenon in an inkjet print. I enjoy contact printing my 8x10 negatives in the darkroom, but occasionally I like to have a larger print from these negs and don't own an 8x10 enlarger. I do enjoy the level of control possible on the desktop. Therefore, as others have said if you have the room and finances to do both that would be my vote.

[willwilson]

Definitely give it a shot. For me, the wet darkroom print is the reason I make negatives, so there is no option. The darkroom is my break from the screens of life (as I type this on a screen lol).

What gives you creative joy? For me...

Taking LF photos = joy
Pulling out a developed negative = joy
Darkroom printing = joy
Scanning and Photoshop = work

There's also something to be said for the mechanical tinkering side of darkroom printing. It can be pretty fun to tweak all the mechanical gizmos required to make high quality darkroom prints.




Will Wilson
www.willwilson.com

[bob carnie]

I do both and enjoy both for their merits, as Micheal R says combining them is also a good idea . I am now settled down to making silver gelatins from some of my work using the enlarger ( as I love solarization and have yet been able to duplicate this look digitally ) and the rest of my work is negative scan to inkjet prints then multiple gum prints over palladium or just multiple gum. A lot depends on your inventory of images and what you want to say with your work.

[Fred L]

I started out 4x5, went to 8x10 and then got a 5x7. So my plan is to sell my 4x5 and keep the other formats since I have a 4x5 back for the 5x7 Canham. For large format, I'm basically transitioning to platinum printing only. Will always enlarge 35mm and medium format. I just found 4x5 contacts a bit too small for my taste. 5x7 is a very sweet spot.

So after all that, I'd suggest getting the enlarger if it's a good deal, and you want to get wet.

[Peter Lewin]

It is purely a question of which process you enjoy the most (or as many suggested, do both). Personally I enjoy the fact that my silver gelatin prints are handmade and even with the same burning & dodging schedule, no two are identical. Others prefer the greater flexibility achievable using digital programs such as Photoshop. So ultimately it comes down to whether you prefer working in the darkroom, or working at a computer terminal in daylight.

[Corran]

I scan everything I shoot, so that's just a given for me. Meanwhile, I greatly prefer to make SG prints in my darkroom. When I do sales, I lean on the handmade aspect, and this is definitely an important decider for some buyers.

However occasionally I make an image that for one reason or another can't be printed traditionally (or likely I'm not able to do it). So the option to print digitally is nice. I also occasionally have custom requests that I can not fulfill due to size/time and/or the money is not there from the client, but they can afford a drop-shipped digital print, so that's another avenue I can take.

If it's just for you, do what YOU want to do, that's the only thing that matters.

[Tin Can]

I regret my 15 years of chasing digital perfection

Waste of my time and money

I only wet print

now

[Serge S]

Thank You all - for are the informative responses.

I've not done any SG prints in a while & miss the look & feel.
Inkjets also have their place.
It's nice to have all these options available isn't it!
I am going to see if that 4x5 enlarger is still available & how I can fit it in my basement darkroom.

Thanks again for your thoughts & suggestions.

[neil poulsen]

For myself, the only reason to have an enlarger is to print silver gelatin. It has it's own look that I don't see being duplicated through digital means.

But, I wouldn't have an enlarger for color printing.

[Alan Klein]

I don't have a darkroom. I have my 4x5s and 6x7s chromes and BWs developed in a pro shop. So which digital print methods are best?

[MILC Toast]

Just an opinion:

I could spend 5 figures easily to get a scanning, printing and photo editing software setup to be like everyone else.

An old enlarger and a dark room might run around $4,000 for me since I'll have it in a $2,000 shed and it will definitely have my fingerprints all over it so among the people who still do it the old fashioned way, I'll still be unique.

Good or bad at it is another issue...

The other option is going big to do contact prints only but what you save by avoiding a 4x5 enlarger you pay in expensive lenses, film and less flexibility since you can't blow up and crop (without reducing print size).

The decision is easy for me because I'm trying to be low budget and I got my 4x5 Sinar F really really cheap but I think I probably would need that 5 figure budget before I would change my mind.

[xkaes]

$4,000? I've have a CB-7 and a 45MXII -- and got each of them for around $400. And 4x5" cameras works for me since I like large prints. And nowadays you can get all the darkroom gear you need for next to nothing. There might be a resurgence of film recently, but much less in the darkroom.

[SergeyT]

If one likes the look of SG prints over inkjet, cyanotypes, gum ,etc and wants their prints to look like SG print then the only way to achieve that is to make SG prints.
Likewise, if one likes the looks of prints made with another method - go with the method that you like, if you think that you can afford it and become proficient at it.
Some questions to answer along the way - "what do you want to achieve by making prints?" and "is method X essential for that purpose?"

[neil poulsen]

I have a well equipped, though confined, darkroom with 4x5 capability and use it to develop and print only black and white negatives. All my color work is done using digital capture and rendering.

I maintain my darkroom, because for me, nothing quite matches the look of a silver gelatin print. I very rarely print back and white digitally. Although, I think that would be worth exploring.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, even 4K overall investment in a complete darkroom is a bargain, given that fact that most enlargers in decent shape can be kept going for many more decades with little more than a periodic light bulb change. Scanners and digital printing devices, however, have to be repeatedly repurchased, due to either wearing out prematurely or the software going obsolete relatively soon. It's a choice been equipment designed to last, versus a kind of equipment related to consumer electronics, designed to need frequent replacement by the "latest and greatest" version instead.

Yeah, good darkroom b&w papers are getting expensive. But at least you're getting some real silver and gelatin on it, whereas with inkjet paper, you're spending just as much or even more for just a little sizing on an otherwise plain sheet of paper. And ever look at the cost of those inks, at least a color set? Not an apples to apples comparison, color & BW. But with a colorhead on an enlarger you can do both; and RA4 color paper is relatively affordable, certainly compared to color inkjet.

Regardless, there is a certain calming tactile enjoyment to darkroom workflow, versus sitting on your butt punching buttons nervously like I'm doing at the moment.

[jp]

One could easily spend $5000 on a 24" printer, and then $1000 on ink. Add $2000 for computer, monitor, $1300 epson scanner, and backup storage and you're pushing 5 digits no problem.

For a darkroom, the sink will probably be the most expensive item either bought or built. Budget a couple hundred for a good enlarger lens and focusing aid; The grain will be so tiny from the small amount of enlargement, it's more important than ever to get a good focusing aid if you need one compared to tiny formats. Easel, trays, plumbing and electric will probably use the remainder of the $2k.

[SergeyT]

One could easily spend $5000 on a 24" printer, and then $1000 on ink. Add $2000 for computer, monitor, $1300 epson scanner, and backup storage and you're pushing 5 digits no problem.

For a darkroom, the sink will probably be the most expensive item either bought or built. Budget a couple hundred for a good enlarger lens and focusing aid; The grain will be so tiny from the small amount of enlargement, it's more important than ever to get a good focusing aid if you need one compared to tiny formats. Easel, trays, plumbing and electric will probably use the remainder of the $2k.

It is implied that there a space for the Darkroom available.
It is also implied that none of the digital equipment is already acquired.

The reality for many could be quite the opposite.
Try to buy a space suitable for the darkroom in a highly populated prestigious area. Want to compare the costs from that perspective ?

[ic-racer]

I can get a nice 4x5 enlarger for a moderate price locally

The best way to obtain one...locally, as shipping can be very expensive. What kind?

[Ulophot]

Look around, ask around, and be a little patient.

About four years ago, when my Zone VI coldlight head died, I looked on Craigslist, just in case. Bingo: a thrift store a couple of hours away was selling one -- with a 4x5 Beseler enlarger! -- for $100. I called to say I was coming, and drove there immediately. While there, the lady in charge asked me if I wanted anything else from the lot the person had brought in -- expensive trays, thermometers, quart Pyrex measuring cups, chemistry, paper, etc. I took a good deal of it. Once home, I put the Zone VI head to work easily enough. Meanwhile, I cleaned up and sold the enlarger for $100 and later sold most of the other items -- not big money but enough for another box of film. So,my cost was a couple of gallons of gas.

The head lasted just a few years, and I'm about to offer it and another I happen to have to anyone who wants to invest in buying a new lamp or whatever. But you certainly can find bargains with a little persistence.

[Serge S]

The best way to obtain one...locally, as shipping can be very expensive. What kind?

I'm not sure, I saw it a number of years ago.
Will found out soon & report back.

I used to print (35 /6x6 & 6x7) with a C700 omega in a very rudimentary space.
Working with a 4x5 entails a more involved commitment to getting the work area organized - a bit more daunting!

[jnantz]

I'm not sure, I saw it a number of years ago.
Will found out soon & report back.

I used to print (35 /6x6 & 6x7) with a C700 omega in a very rudimentary space.
Working with a 4x5 entails a more involved commitment to getting the work area organized - a bit more daunting!

the good folks at VCP (in Brattleboro) or further south at NEPHS (2x a year). might able to point you in the right direction for a 4x5 enlarger..
some folks active in both sometimes post here or on pho3-o

[Larry Gebhardt]

If your local source falls through I have a few Omega D5 chassis in the attic of my garage, and I believe a condenser head, if you are interested in a trip to southern NH.

[John Kasaian]

Bathrooms can make excellent darkrooms. Really.

[xkaes]

You haven't been in some the the bathrooms I have been in.

[Alan Klein]

What does your wife say about using her bathroom?

[Leszek Vogt]

Just spotted (listing) Omega DII not far from here for $300 (CDN).....but traveling across the country for it makes no sense.

**Disclaimer**....have no connection with the sale of this unit.

[MILC Toast]

I think my estimates are pretty reasonable.

My shed cost $2,000 but it's insulated fiberglass and air-conditioned. I rent and have roommates so a bathroom darkroom is not feasible. My shed is on land I own but I don't live there yet. If I can get all of my equipment for $500 (fingers crossed), I still need something like a solar generator to run the AC, the enlarger light, ventilation and water pump. That puts me up near $4,000 although most of it is cost already sunk in to my shed and for power to run it.

If I had a spare room or usable bathroom, I might be able to set up for far less than $2,000 but a spare room or usable bathroom is an expense you pay for also.

If I had $10,000 to spend I would be able to get a nice scan and print setup, maybe even a 48" printer to do 48x60" prints but I don't think I would enjoy it very much. Every time I've tried editing software in the last 25 years it has been a painful experience even though I'm pretty computer literate (worked in tech 15+ years using software on Solaris and Linux systems).

So if I had that $10,000, I would probably still build a budget darkroom in my shed and spend the other $5-6,000 on fun stuff.

[Corran]

Of course building a whole shed and powering with solar will be the bulk of the expense. My first enlarger, along with enough accessories to start printing 4x5, was $350 from a member on this forum. I don't think enlarger and related gear have gone up much, it's just whether or not you can find anything somewhat local.

I have 2 enlargers in my basement that I've been trying to give away for months, along with lots of accessories. Two folks have just been flaky about picking up.

I don't think I've spent $2k on my enlarging setup at all, including a few Beselers, lots of lenses and large trays, print washer, etc.. Heck I hired a guy to build me a completely custom workbench setup across my entire darkroom and also built a large island in the center myself and all of that custom work was only $1500, though I suppose costs on wood/construction materials have certainly increased.

[Tin Can]

Forgive me for repetition...not

I will not give away or sell for low price anymore LF/ULF gear of any kind

All I have given away! Was discarded! Giant Elwood, I love your Timelessness

"What's the difference between Art Deco and art nouveau?
Art Nouveau and Art Deco are two of the defining art movements of the 20th century, influencing all elements of visual culture, from fine art and design, to architecture and graphic arts. Where Art Nouveau celebrates elegant curves and long lines, Art Deco consists of sharp angles and geometrical shapes."

Elwood has both



When I am dead, you can pry it from my fingers

and you will waste it anyway

Let me count my treasures on fingers and toes

as my eyes dim to black

I have 3 working Elwoods, all different

[Drew Wiley]

I this area the challenge is affording personal space for a darkroom. But heck, where there's a will there's a way! Many of us have started out with something makeshift in a bathroom or garage. Some never graduate beyond that, or need to. Stieglitz developed many of his famous prints using a "tray ladder" in a closet in his office.

As far as equipment expense, a lot of things can be improvised, including sinks. And enlargers with all their needed accessories still turn up for free from time to time. The last enlarger I installed was a fully equipped 8X10 color Durst originally costing at least $27,000; but it was free to me, plus any other enlargers I could haul away (but didn't, because I didn't have any more space left). Within a month of weekends-only TLC, I had that whole machine 100% like-new functionally, and about 95% cosmetically reconditioned. My very best set of enlarging lenses were also obtained free on a different occasion.
Some of my other toys were expensive, even custom-built by myself; but those are of the variety a typical black and white photographer never needs.

[Tin Can]

Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder

I spent way more on cars, motorbikes

2 divorces, the last one I just walked in and said 'How much?'

I said 'OK' and walked out

No anger

just stupidity

They should have waited for a few more years and got full SS

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah, depends on one's priorities. Various neighbors of mine spend way more time and money fooling around with motorcycles and speedboats and old cars than I ever did setting up even a deluxe darkroom.

As a professional Buyer, I had to spend a lot of daily time with a computer. I surely wouldn't want to be dependent on printing images that way too. The big expensive office printer where I worked sucked up a thousand dollars of color ink a month, and needed a service tech every few months. And sustaining all the damned integrated software itself? .... #%$@^#%^$A $$$$$$$ !! But any commercial enlarger, unless its overwhelmed with redundant bells n' whistles style electronics, typically needs a light bulb change every few years, and maybe a fuse changed once a decade. At least that's been my experience.