Help: which shutter for a Symmar 1:5,6/360?

[lungovw]

I have these front and rear cells of a Symmar 1:5,6/360. They are in a very decent condition, not pristine but absolutely usable. But the shutter is missing. Is it possible to find one with the matching threads and correct inter cells distance? I am not familiar with lens x shutter combinations but I remember reading some posts in this forum that gave me the impression that shutters were sort of standardized and lens makers designed their cells to fit available shutters. 234806

[Dugan]

Can you measure the diameter of the mounting threads?
You might want to check the Schneider info on Dan Fromm's link...it's the first Sticky in the Lens & Accessories subforum.
I have a 355mm f6.8 Symmar, and it is mounted in a Copal #3 shutter.

[lungovw]

Cells' threads are 67,8 mm.Thanks for the tip, I will check Dan Fromm's link.

[David Lindquist]

My Schneider literature for that vintage 360 mm f/5.6 Symmar (i.e. convertible plasmat) shows that it came in a Compound "IV 10/2" shutter. That is a No. 4 Compound and the "10/2", sometimes rendered "10/II" is the "tube length", the distance between the front face on which the lens cell locates and the rear face on which the lens cell locates, in this case 45 mm. Your thread diameter of 67.8 mm is consistent with the thread diameter of 67.92 mm given by Compur-Werk.

There was a second version of the No. 4 Compound, "Tube 9". It had a different front-to-back distance, i.e. "tube length", 50 mm. Thread diameter is also different, 62.2 mm.

Got this information here: https://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/rep/compur-repair/02-05.html

David

[lungovw]

I found already that in regards to threads the cells fit on a Compound IV. The tube extension for this shutter is 45mm. If I add up front+rear+tube I get 113mm. The Schneider specs I found following Don's links say 114mm. That sounds good. I do have a single coated Heliar 1:4,5/240mm mounted in such a Compound IV shutter, so I could test the Symmar on it. But the rear element does not come off easily and to do it properly it will take me some time. I will post later the outcome.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51920133975_0b298137b6_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2n71fXH)Symmar F5.6 (https://flic.kr/p/2n71fXH) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

[lungovw]

Well, I managed to remove the Heliar 1:4,5/240mm cells and fit the Symmar 1:5,6/360mm instead. So now both lenses can share the same Coumpound IV shutter (one at a time). Schneider literature says that the distance C, marked in the attached picture, that means, the total length from front to back, should be 114mm. In this one brought by Daniel Unkefer it says 112,5. In my sample it came out as 112,5mm. I will 3D print a ring, bring it to the 114mm and compare. Then I will be all set. I is funny in a way that I had the solution in house, all the time, and never thought about it. I always considered this lens too big to fit in the same shutter as the Heliar. I have Copal #3 and was looking for something ever larger than that. Thanks David and Daniel.

234807234808

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello from France!

The problem is solved, good news, so here is some additional info for those who would like to use a 360 mm 5.6 Symmar,
I have found this other vintage brochure
https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/symmar_5-6-pdf.79242/

Probably more recent, published after Compound #4 shutters were discontinued.
The data-sheet says that the 5.6 / 360 Symmar is mounted on a COMPUR 5FS size#5 shutter, probably with reducing rings to fit Compound #4 thread sizes?
Another 6.8 / 360 Symmar version is mentioned on a #3 shutter.
However, It is not granted that 5.6 cells could be mounted on a #3 shutter even with a max aperture reduced to 6.8 .
May be Schneider redesigned the lens barrel and lens element diameters to be compatible with a #3 shutter?

After Symmars were discontinued (at the end of the sixties?), 360 mm Symmar-S and, later, 360 mm Apo-Symmars were limited to 6.8 and mounted on a #3 shutter.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51181099188_2017bd17d2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kYGvEC)360 Symmar Norma Auto Iris Pair (https://flic.kr/p/2kYGvEC) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I have a matched pair of 360mm Sinar Norma DB Auto Aperture barrel Symmars with Sinar Rabbit Ears. So the shutter up top camera is the Norma Shutter which can be fully operated from behind the camera. Super quick to operate, shown on my TLR 4x5 Norma. Perfect for LF Portraiture and action photography. I met Igor Reznik at a camera show to pick up the bottom lens last year. Got a great deal on it :)

[David Lindquist]

Hello from France!

The problem is solved, good news, so here is some additional info for those who would like to use a 360 mm 5.6 Symmar,
I have found this other vintage brochure
https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/symmar_5-6-pdf.79242/

Probably more recent, published after Compound #4 shutters were discontinued.
The data-sheet says that the 5.6 / 360 Symmar is mounted on a COMPUR 5FS size#5 shutter, probably with reducing rings to fit Compound #4 thread sizes?
Another 6.8 / 360 Symmar version is mentioned on a #3 shutter.
However, It is not granted that 5.6 cells could be mounted on a #3 shutter even with a max aperture reduced to 6.8 .
May be Schneider redesigned the lens barrel and lens element diameters to be compatible with a #3 shutter?

After Symmars were discontinued (at the end of the sixties?), 360 mm Symmar-S and, later, 360 mm Apo-Symmars were limited to 6.8 and mounted on a #3 shutter.

Found the dimensions of the Compur 5FS here: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?142729-Compur-electronic-5FS-shutter-s-measures

See post #3 (Thank you Paul for this.)

As can be seen the Compur 5FS did not duplicate the thread diameters and pitches nor the tube length(s) of the No. 5 Compound. (Nor did the No. 3 Compur duplicate the No. 3 Compound.)

David