Curled ILFORD paper

[ASA1000]

Whan I spend $133 for 100 sheets of paper..... am I wrong to expect it to be FLAT?
The box won't close, the whole pack is arched...... is this just the way it is, now?
It's a pain in the arse in the trays, and I have to put them in the press to flatten them out, after they are dry.
Anyone else have this problem with ILFORD..... from B&H?

234086

[Michael R]

There’s typically some curl, yes. I’ve never had a problem during processing as it flattens out as soon as it is thoroughly wet. Variables such as temperature or ambient humidity (once opened) can affect this.

[paulbarden]

Whan I spend $133 for 100 sheets of paper..... am I wrong to expect it to be FLAT?
The box won't close, the whole pack is arched...... is this just the way it is, now?
It's a pain in the arse in the trays, and I have to put them in the press to flatten them out, after they are dry.
Anyone else have this problem with ILFORD..... from B&H?


In the past 45 years, I have yet to purchase a box of FB paper that was not moderately to severely curled. This is not new.

[Doremus Scudder]

This is just one of the challenges with fiber-base paper that we have to deal with if we want the look and quality associated with it.

If you want flat paper, you can get RC paper, but then, it's not going to look and feel the same as fiber-base.

Weight helps, as does taping the box closed after you're done with the printing session. The paper will flatten out in the tray after it has got completely wet. You might try submerging it into the developer emulsion-side-down and then flipping the print after it's wet. Also, don't skimp on developer in the tray; use enough to make getting the print submerged quickly a non-problem.

FWIW, not all fiber-base papers curl quite so much as your example. Still, I've never had a box of fiber-base paper that wasn't curled a bit.

Finished prints curl too, and need to be flattened and/or mounted for display. That's just the nature of the beast.

Best,

Doremus

[Michael R]

For what it’s worth, RC curls too. It’s just typically not typically as rigid as DW FB.


This is just one of the challenges with fiber-base paper that we have to deal with if we want the look and quality associated with it.

If you want flat paper, you can get RC paper, but then, it's not going to look and feel the same as fiber-base.

Weight helps, as does taping the box closed after you're done with the printing session. The paper will flatten out in the tray after it has got completely wet. You might try submerging it into the developer emulsion-side-down and then flipping the print after it's wet. Also, don't skimp on developer in the tray; use enough to make getting the print submerged quickly a non-problem.

FWIW, not all fiber-base papers curl quite so much as your example. Still, I've never had a box of fiber-base paper that wasn't curled a bit.

Finished prints curl too, and need to be flattened and/or mounted for display. That's just the nature of the beast.

Best,

Doremus

[ASA1000]

In the past 45 years, I have yet to purchase a box of FB paper that was not moderately to severely curled. This is not new.

My experience covers that time and more, this is not what I remembered! I can deal with it, but it's yet another 'concession'. Thx for the reply

[ASA1000]

There’s typically some curl, yes. I’ve never had a problem during processing as it flattens out as soon as it is thoroughly wet. Variables such as temperature or ambient humidity (once opened) can affect this.

I was thinking; maybe the recent below zero cold while in transit might have 'helped'. thx!

[Willie]

I was thinking; maybe the recent below zero cold while in transit might have 'helped'. thx!

Humidity and temperature in storage makes a difference. Not always the answer, but can help.

[Ulophot]

ASA, I, too, recall days of flatter fiber paper. A couple of years ago here, someone went off on a rant against Ilford on this account, prompting others to the latter's defense as a leading supplier that had stayed the course in B&W materials for us all through the Dark Age.

Whatever the reason for the increased curl in Ilford's paper (and I'm seeing $2/sheet for the WTFB I use), I am more happy that they have stayed the course. It may be that, like so many, they were obliged to switch paper manufacturers, that the manufacturer(s) were obliged to seek less expensive or more available product components or methods; perhaps the grain goes 90 degree to the way it used to -- all way outside my compass.

You've said previously (maybe in a video) that you have lots of printing to do. You might consider filling the extra space in the box with some matte board or something, and then putting the box under weight for a week or so. It might help; I don't know. Otherwise, a deep developer tray, as you undoubtedly know.

[Maris Rusis]

The Ilford Classic FB VC paper I'm using has a severe curl so I "break" the bend by pulling the paper (emulsion side up) with a reverse bend down over the edge of my enlarging bench. Done a couple of times this gets the paper flat enough for my Saunders 20X24 enlarging easel to do the rest.

[Drew Wiley]

It's just an entirely predictable expansion/contraction variable due to one side of the paper being coated, and not the backside. It's more likely to become an issue with thicker FB emulsions, like MGWT especially, than thinner coatings. And it varies with climate, season, etc - humidity change related, relative to packaging humidity. No big deal if your easel blades have sufficient muscle. If not, supplement their gravity tug with a little removable masking tape. I either use Saunders pro easels, or if rarely necessary, a vac easel. Old outdated paper seems to be worse.

Get your exposed paper into the developer tray fast, and spread developer over the entire print rapidly with gloved hands. It will go limp and flat in the tray soon enough.

[Kiwi7475]

As upsetting as this is, a good easel and a deep tray takes care of it. More disturbing is the wrinkling after the printer dries…. I’m tired of putting them under books for a week or two to flatten. So eventually I got a heat press which works well but the space that it takes it’s just too much. In the end I’m sticking to RC. Good enough for me — and if I want something really special I’ll do a carbon print. In my book the benefits do not outweigh the production cons.

[Michael R]

Until I win the powerball and can afford a nice new Kienzle easel, my workaround for tough paper in my not fantastic Saunders easel continues to be a series of strong little magnets I place on the blades to hold them flat. Bit of a pain, but I only need them for final prints. For test prints, work prints etc the paper is held flat enough by the easel blades.


It's just an entirely predictable expansion/contraction variable due to one side of the paper being coated, and not the backside. It's more likely to become an issue with thicker FB emulsions, like MGWT especially, than thinner coatings. And it varies with climate, season, etc - humidity change related, relative to packaging humidity. No big deal if your easel blades have sufficient muscle. If not, supplement their gravity tug with a little removable masking tape. I either use Saunders pro easels, or if rarely necessary, a vac easel. Old outdated paper seems to be worse.

Get your exposed paper into the developer tray fast, and spread developer over the entire print rapidly with gloved hands. It will go limp and flat in the tray soon enough.

[Pieter]

If you want to see some curl, wait until it dries.

[ASA1000]

Thanks for the replies!
It's not an unsurmountable problem, I know that. I just expected more from the modern day emulsions....
"Back in the Day" my procedure was: soak in print flattening solution, squeeze off (both sides, back side first) with a squeegee wet with Photo Flo, then lay face down on a screen to dry. Next into the dry-mount-press between two sheets of thick Kraft paper at 180 degrees, for a minute and a half. Then immediately sandwiched between two thick pieces of glass until they cool. Then I could store them in a box and they'd stay flat.
oh well!

UPDATE: B&H is going to exchange this box for another one. We shall see what that looks like soon!

[Drew Wiley]

DON'T use Kraft paper in a drymount press! - or with respect to FB printing papers at all. It's acidic and contains other nasties you don't want to risk transferring io the print. Yeah, that was the old days indeed. I have quite a few otherwise valuable watercolor paintings stained and brittle, and devoid of all their original value due to the modern wonder and convenience of Kraft paper and masking tape back in the 1930's, when artists and picture framers simply didn't know better.

After my FB prints have completely dried on fiberglass screens, they are placed under a big sheet of 1/4-inch thick plate glass, with another inert smooth surface below, and that flattens them quite well for either stacked storage in print boxes, or for drymounting. That same big sheet of glass is also used during the drymount process itself, for holding the print down flat right after the drymounted print & board come out of the press. Fully adhesion occurs during the cooling phase.

Of course, you've still got a potential expansion/contraction differential between two different substances - the more permeable museum board, and the less humidity-permeable print itself. So left out in the open and not stacked in storage of placed in a tight frame, you might still get significant bend or curl. That's more an issue with cheaper more hydroscopic board brands like Crescent than premium ones like Rising. In this foggy climate, it's something I'm all too aware of. And of course, no drymounting for me right now, once the rainy season has seriously begun.

[ASA1000]

DON'T use Kraft paper in a drymount press! - or with respect to FB printing papers at all. It's acidic and contains other nasties you don't want to risk transferring io the print. Yeah, that was the old days indeed. I have quite a few otherwise valuable watercolor paintings stained and brittle, and devoid of all their original value due to the modern wonder and convenience of Kraft paper and masking tape back in the 1930's, when artists and picture framers simply didn't know better. ...............


Thanks for the Kraft warning! The stuff I had was getting kind of old, anyway ;-)

[Martin Aislabie]

With curly FB paper when taken out of the box, I have just rolled it up the other way, to make a tube.

When released it is usually flat(ish).

I have had to roll it the other way twice on occasion of really bad curl.

Martin

[Mark Sampson]

This issue is exacerbated by the fact that all the manufacturers have gone to shallower-depth boxes for their paper. And storing paper in a plastic paper safe only makes the curl worse. Now that I live in a very dry climate, it's not such a big problem, though; just something to deal with.