New to LF, need advice...

[David Whysong]

I'm trying to ready a 4x5 budget LF camera system for a camping / road trip in a couple weeks (to Canyon de Chelly and the Grand Canyon). In addition to the obvious landscapes, I'd also like to shoot some natural light portraits.

I have a Calumet 45N and some cheap old lenses - a Wollensak Raptar 127/4.5, a Graflex Optar 135/4.7, and a beautiful Zeiss 250/4.5 in a barrel. This last lens is, of course, the difficulty - I suspect it'd be great for portraits, if only I can shutter it. I could try to mount it in a Packard shutter for ~$260 new (ouch), or I can get a large shutter off e-bay for a bit more $$$ and try to adapt it to the rear of the lens. I don't have a metal lathe (yet), but maybe I could rig something temporary with fiberboard and duct tape until I can make a metal adapter ring.

My girlfriend will accompany me on the trip, and she wants to learn to use the camera also. (I'm so lucky!) She's even making a dark cloth for me. I'm making my own lensboards from 1/16" fiberboard. I cut the first one last night - it was much easier than I expected, and from my visual inspection it appears to be light-tight. I'll add some flat black paint and maybe some felt around the edges later. It is a bit flexible, but I'll glue on some reinforcing plywood or fiberboard to help make it more stiff.

I'm about to order a box of 50 sheets of Kodak T-MAX 100, and 10 sheets each of Kodak E100VS and Porta-160NC. I also have a Nikon D2h for use when hiking or when I otherwise want a quick photo. I will use the Nikon as a meter for the LF camera, though perhaps that will introduce up to ~ 1 stop of error, due to different lens throughput and possible differences in metering between film and digital. I will try to take a bracketed test shot before the trip so I can try to estimate the exposure compensation.

My questions are:

- What do people suggest for shuttering the Zeiss lens?

- Can anyone suggest strategies for metering accurately, using the D2h? Should I use spot, center-weighted, or matrix metering?

- Should I hang my head in shame if I want to have the film processed at a lab?

- Any other advice or suggestions?

Assuming I can get any decent photos, I intend to scan them for digital processing and prints.

Thanks for any replies,

-- David

[Scott Davis]

A packard shutter for your 250 should run about $100. Tops. Build a mounting box for it that goes on the front of the camera, like a lensboard. Then have another opening in the front of the mounting box the same size as your lensboard, and voila - you have your 250 with a Packard shutter for probably less than $150 if you already have some basic tools to make the mounting box.

For your own sanity's sake, I would recommend taking just one type of color film with you. Transparency and negative films behave very differently, and trying to mentally compensate for the differences and remembering which one you're shooting can be a real challenge.

I would also recommend against the TMAX 100 - it is such a contrasty film you will find you have a hard time controlling your highlights. If you want a film in that speed range, try Ilford FP4+. If you want to stick with the TMAX brand, shoot the TMAX 400 instead. It is more forgiving, and it is also excellent for long time exposures.

[steve simmons]

Here are my thoughts.

Don't use the 35mm digital camera as a meter. learn to use a spot meter.

Shoot film before you go to get calibrated.

Read one of these books

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

Using the View Camera that i wrote

and/or

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone.

Get a Polaroid back and some type 54 film (the 100 speed black and white)

Practice, Practice, Practice

steve simmons
www.viewcamera magazine

[j.e.simmons]

You don't have to have a shutter - I use an old barrel lens and simply take off the lens cap to expose. I've also used cards to cover and uncover the lens - other folks have used devices like socks, except made of more opaque material, and others have used hats.

As Steve says, you should practice before you go.

I've never had much luck with T-max 100, either, but some people like it. The only way to learn if it works for you is to try it.

There's no shame in letting a lab do the work for you. Where I live, it's hard to find one that will still do B&W large format. I would think that you would want to do your own B&W processing when you can to take advantage of the controls you will learn about. Color - you may want to continue to send that out.

Good luck.
juan

[MIke Sherck]

There are enough variables in making a photograph with a large format camera that you really need to have some experience before you go on your trip. Differences in lenses, shutters, film, filters, how the film is processed, etc. will all gang up on you if you don't, guaranteed.

Are you going to be processing your own film, or will someone else do it for you? You need to make some exposures with the equipment and film you intend to use before you go, get them processed and at least proofed, before you will have any sense of how the materials will respond to your own peculiar equipment and technique. This will let you know, among other things, about what speed to rate your film at in order to get the prints you want. For example, when I expose 100Tmax through my old Kodak Ektar 127mm (uncoated) lens I give it less exposure and more development in order to increase the contrast, than when I expose it through a more modern multi-coated lens. You can't learn this stuff from a book, it's all trial and error because there are so many variables.

With your Zeiss 250mm lens, if you can arrange things so that the shutter speed is a consistant time then you have a good chance of being able to use it the way old-timers used their shutterless lenses -- use a cap or something to cover the lens and whisk it off and back on to make your exposure. With practice you can figure out how long of an exposure you can consistantly make that way, then use filters and aperture to adjust the exposure to the range you can consistantly produce. It's a little inconvenient but once you have practiced it you'd be surprised at how well you can do. And it looks -very- dramatic. :)

Before you get too depressed, keep a couple of things in mind. First, there is a lot more latitude in terms of exposure with black and white materials than with color, particularly transparency materials. You can almost always get a recognizable image with B&W, even if it isn't the perfectly exposed masterpiece you were hoping for. The more you practice the better you'll get. Secondly, reading about using a view camera is no replacement for practice using it. If you haven't used a view camera before then you really need to practice the basics before you go. Try this exercise (I forget who I cribbed this from, but they were wise.) With all of your equipment packed the way you'll transport it in the field, set it up in your driveway or back yard as though you were going to make an exposure. Set it all up, compose, and focus, set and fire the shutter (no need to use film for this exercise. Just use an empty film holder.) Make sure that you've gone through all the steps in the correct sequence, then tear it all down, pack it away, and do it again. After a few dozen reps you'll have a pretty good idea of what goes where, in what order, and what you don't want to forget when packing for your trip. Don't worry about what the neighbors will think -- they all think you're crazy already for using this hulking big behemoth camera when "everyone knows" that a $200 point and shoot digital is all anyone ever needs. :)

Good luck!

[David Whysong]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Scott: I'll see if I can find a used Packard shutter; new #6 Syncro shutters from http://www.packardshutter.com/ are over $200 in this size. About film, I'll look for the Ilford FP4+. The 2 color films are for completely different purposes - E100VS for shooting canyons, Porta 160NC for portraits. I don't think either would work well for the opposite purpose. I won't have a chance to learn the film characteristics in advance, anyway... I'll just have expose for the rated speed, shoot, and see what I end up with.

Steve: I will have to meter with the dSLR. I don't have a spot meter or polaroid back, and between buying film, film holders, and trying to shutter the 250/4.5 lens my budget will be exhausted. Luckily, the dSLR does spot metering, and I can spot meter with a 50mm standard lens so the light isn't passing through many elements (and associated light loss) of a zoom lens.

I've been doing a lot of reading already, and I'll look for those books.

Thanks!

-- David

[Brett Deacon]

First of all, congratulations on finding a girlfriend who wants to learn LF! That is truly priceless.

I second Scott's suggestion of only taking one type of color film if you wish to simplify things. Since you intend to scan your film, you can always convert to B&W later.

Some of us here, myself included, use 35mm/DSLRs as lightmeters. I get very good results with my Minolta Maxxum 7. I meter for 4x5 the same way I do with 35mm using either the spot meter or matrix meter depending on the situation. No compensation has been neceessary in my experience. A spotmeter is very precise and much lighter than your DSLR but is not a necessity, especially at this point in your LF career.

No need to feel ashamed for having a lab process your film. We all have to start somewhere. It's better to take pictures now and send them to the lab than to take no pictures until after you've mastered film developing.

[Ted Harris]

First the Zeiss lens. What has already been suggested wil work fine if your circumstances allow you to use a slow shutter speed but not if you need something faster than 1 second or a half second. You should call Adam at SK Grimes (www.skgrimes.com) or Carol at Flutto's (www.flutoscamerarepair.com); either one can mount your lens in a shutter and will be able to gie you a close estimate of the cost of doing so. If the lens cells will drop directly into a shutter then the cost will be nominal (plus the cost of a shutter of course) but if that is not the case the machining could run up to $25- - 300.

As for TMax 100, I use it all the time and,while I prefer Fuji ACROS 100, find it an excellent film here though you need to makeyour own decisions as to what flavors of film you prefer.

[tim atherton]

"Here are my thoughts. Don't use the 35mm digital camera as a meter. learn to use a spot meter. "

What's your source for cheap budget spot meters?

[Ernest Purdum]

I suggest getting rid of the Raptar and Optar. They don't have large enough image circles for use of the movements of your camera. They are, however, in some demand for use on "press" cameras, so you should be able to sell them on eBay. Use the money to buy a lens in the 90 to 150mm range with an image circle of 210mm or so. If you don't know what lenses would be suitable, there are several good resources on the web and you can always get more advice here.

In addition to the worthwhile books Steve Simmons recommended to you, I like View Camer Technique by Stroebel. It is a big, expensive book, though and there have been complaints that it is less readable than the others. Maybe you can find it in a library to see if you want to buy it. It has lens tables that are helpful.

If you send me your mailing address, I will send you (no charge) a booklet on lens choice.

A hearty welcome to the LF community..

[Jim Galli]

Couple of thoughts. Here's (http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22200) a piece we did in fun on a "shutter" that I wouldn't hesitate to use for portraits with a 250mm wide open. It actually works fine. Second, if you have a Nikon FM body, take it along. You'll find if you remove the back from the view camera after it's focused you can look "through" the Nikon with no lens and the lens on the view camera will focus on the Nikon ground glass. The FM will then give you ttl readings of how it would interpret different areas of your scene. Arrive at a meaningful film ISO (difficult with Tmax, easier with tri-X) and do as the Nikon says.

[David Martin]

With a bit of simple math, that shutter could be calibrated appropriately.

Now, accelleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s^2 so if the opening starts at 10cm above the lens and stops at 14cm, that should give..

an exposure of 1/50th

Hmm.. that would be cheap and easy. A couple of pieces of black painted 3mm ply A4 size cut in a U shape.Bolts to hold the two halves together An adjustable top to the gate. Calibration lines to give different timing ranges, and it should be possible to have a piece of board with a hole in one drops in front of the lens to give an accurate exposure up to and exceeding 1/250th. Not sure how well it would work at slower speeds than about 1/20th as that then requires a very long drop.

It may need shades either side of the lens as well.

A cunning plan is emerging. I might make something up at the weekend and try it.

..d

[ronald moravec]

Cut a rectangle from a boeard and drop the cut out acress the front of the lens.

Different width rectangles will give different speeds.

You can also make a 6x6 large cut and just change inserts.

Practice on 35 mm film always moving at the same speed and see what shutter speeds you get.

Do back ups on a camera with witch you have previous experience. You will surely make a lot of errors. Take the rig to a local park and do some practice. LF is not hard, but there are just a lot of ways to make mistakes.

[Patrik Roseen]

David, I have been doing 4x5 LF for about a year now. And here are my thoughts.

I bought a used spotmeter (soligor spotsensor II) on ebay for about 80 USD and I love it. So easy to do the reading and deciding aperture/exposure. No real need for bracketing unless doing color slides in difficult lighting.

I started out using a 135mm Raptar which I think is an OK starter lens stopped down to f22 or f32...the only difficulty is to find filters for it. I have bought more modern lenses since and I'm now using Cokin-P holders and filters for those.

About film processing... I started out thinking this was very difficult so I bought a polaroid 545 holder but never used it (the cost for polaroids killed that idea, then I realized the cost for lab processing and thought I'd give the B/W processing a try...and it was alot easier than I could imagine. I suggest you buy a film-changing bag and a JOBO drum/Combi-plan tank, then you can develop your film anywhere where you have access to clean water.

Color slides is something I'm still not ready for (expensive chemicals which are not easy to store and the process is said to be very sensitive). The labs are not cheap! The cost for processing one slide is the same as the cost for developing a whole film (120-roll).

So, I encourage you to give the development a try...it's alot easier than you might think!

Good Luck, Patrik

[CXC]

I strongly advise that you go with packet film, either ReadyLoads or QuickLoads. You will have plenty to deal with without un/loading filmholders. Especially since you are going to be in a dusty environment. Incidentally, all 3 films you list are available in ReadyLoads. If you end up using hand-loaded filmholders, consider using the lovely Tri-X.

Stick with either chrome or neg, not both, whichever you are most comfortable/satisfied with already.

I used to have a b&w darkroom in my spare room, but now that I can afford to use a lab, I don't miss it at all. I got over the shame, so can you.

Be emotionally prepared to screw up in every way imaginable, because you will. Just like the rest of us. About the only thing I have yet to do wrong is shoot a sheet with the lenscap on. Just give me time...

[Lee Hamiel]

David:

I'm going against the grain here - I suggest using your D2H meter in spot mode & meter accordingly - Use a similar field of view lens for this so your "zone" is in the same range. You will get instant feedback & then use Polaroid type 55 or other - meter for the neg & not the positive. Also - I've had good results from both the Tmax 100 & Portra 160.

I have a Sekonic L-508 spot meter & also a Nikon F5 & in spot metering mode they agree in most situations with good results. I'm guessing the D2H has a similar if not the same metering.

Most important - have fun & learn from practice.

Hope you get some nice shots.

Regards

[Glenn Thoreson]

For the time being, why not do it the easy way. Get yourself a couple of neutral density filters that you can fit to your lens. Pretty dense, because to do it by hand accurately, you want exposures of more than 1/2 second. 1 second or more is very easy to time without a shutter. All you need is a lens cap. A Packard shutter is only going to give you 1/15 to 1/25 second, depending on how good you are at operating it. Mounting your lens in a shutter will run into the hundreds, depending on the cost of the shutter and the work involved. Filters cost a lot less.

[Henry Ambrose]

David,

I'd drop the film to one type - color negative. Your selection of 160 NC would be fine, as would Fuji NPS or the new version, 160S. One box of 50 should do your trip as you'll find that LF takes a while compared to snapping your SLR - there's lots more to consider in operating the camera after you've agonized over where to stand and where to put the edges of the frame.

Since you're scanning and printing digitally you can make color or B&W prints from one film. If you're sending your film to a lab you're most likely giving up any controls on B&W you'd have if you were doing it yourself. As for shooting canyons with it, since you are scanning you have the chance to bump up the saturation and contrast in post processing. Meter with your Nikon set at 100-125 for any of the films mentioned. If your old shutters are close you'll get good functional exposures - or as near as any chance you'll get. Center weighted may be your best choice for metering method. If you get a good histogram in your Nikon of the scene framed the same with both cameras your film will be good too.

I'd also take either the 127 or the 135, not both. There's no point in taking both as they are very close in view. I'd go for the Optar or the one with the better shutter. Actually if there's time I'd get a used modern 125-135mm Fuji, Schenider or Rodenstock and sell both of the old ones. Jim at Midwest Photo mpex.com (http://www.mpex.com"target="_blank) can help you with a used one. A nice used Fuji can be bought pretty right.

I think you'll be very much more happy after your trip (while looking at your pictures) if you go the route of one good film and one good lens.

Whatever you decide about the 250 (I say a home made shutter if you have to use it ) but you could also just save it for later and buy a used modern 210 for not that much money. It won't have to be a latest model to be great and I bet you could get a nice one for $250.

Now if you like monkeying around with gear just ignore this, but if you want pictures a couple of newish lenses in good shutters (or just one modern lens) will get you there better, especially just starting out.

[Ted Harris]

"What's your source for cheap budget spot meters?"

All depends on the definition of cheap. The Soligor also rebranded by Adorama is $199. I have no direct experience with this meter but I believe some here can give it a review based on use.

[John Kasaian]

To make things as frustration free as possible, I'd suggest selling or trading your lenses and using the money to buy one good used lens, something like a 203mm Ektar, a 165 Angulon, a 150 or 210mm Caltar, a longer Wollensak that will allow you wiggle room, or a Schneider convertible Symmar in good working shutters.

Oh, and take along a spare cable release!

[Al D]

I'm a beginner myself and I've wrestled with some of these issues myself. Here's what I would add:

- Practice setting up the camera, zeroing it, using the movements, setting the preview lever on the lens, focusing, etc. - everything right up to making the exposure (sans using actual film, of course). Go through this cycle maybe 30 times before you go into the field.

- Determine, in advance, how you will pack your camera bag. In 4x5 I found that everything was half the size I expected it to be (YAY!) but twice as heavy (BOO!). In fact, make sure everything fits beforehand.

- I agree that using a dedicated 1 degree spot meter is the way to go. You can pick up a used Minolta Spot F for about $180-275 on Ebay or KEH.COM.

- If you are going to load your own film in holders and don't have a dedicated darkroom than plan on allocating several hours to "lightproofing" a room you have at home. This was non-trivial for me since I live in an apartment building and my apartment just happens to be near an elevator bank. I wound up dealing with a pretty substantial pressure differential between my bathroom which had a vent that was blowing in air at a lower pressure than the surrounding apartment.

- Initially, you've got plenty to concern yourself with regarding the workflow of setting up the camera, mastering the movements, etc. So letting somebody else handle developing the film is not a bad idea. Just be sure to use a reliable processing service.

- There are a ton of used lens boards on the market. And basd on E-bay observations they generally have poor resale unless they are recessed/top-hat types. So making your own lens boards seems like a false economy to me.

- Based on experience with TMX in 135 and 120 formats I would shy away from this film unless you are experienced with a dedicated sport meter or want to use ReadyLoads.

- The Simmons book - Using the View Camera - has some great illustrated examples of the effects of the various camera movements.

[Bill_1856]

You've been given a lot of bad advice here, and a little good advice. It seems to me that you've already got an excellent plan. The best way to learn is by doing it. Go for it!

[Don Wallace]

I guess I am coming late to this thread, but it was not long ago that I was in a similar situation, having to "fake it" with less than ideal equipment. Let me try to answer your questions, based on that experience.

"What do people suggest for shuttering the Zeiss lens?"
Packard shutters are best in controlled light situations since the shutter speeds are limited, to say the least. Use the hat method when the light is right (exposures of, say, 1/2 second and up). It works. We have all done it. Practise counting seconds. You can think of a shutter farther down the road when you have more money.

" Can anyone suggest strategies for metering accurately, using the D2h? Should I use spot, center-weighted, or matrix metering?"
I have never used a D2H but I would give the same advice anyway. Do some testing before you go. BTW, b&w works best after you do calibration for exposure index and development times. If that is not possible, and if you are getting development done by a lab, you will be limited in what you can do. You might be a little disappointed. Personally, on a trip like this, without doing some calibration first, and without a spot meter, I would should mostly colour. When you can't develop yourself, it is more rewarding to shoot colour, in my opinion. Do some tests before you go, using the D2H.

"Should I hang my head in shame if I want to have the film processed at a lab?"
No, it's not a test of masculinity. Just make sure that you do a little testing before you go so you won't be disappointed. When you get the time and the equipment, you will do your own b&w.

"Any other advice or suggestions?"
1) Get Steve Simmons' book, set up your camera in the backyard, sit on a chair, with the book beside you, and play with movements while you have a cool beer.
2) Marry that woman as soon as you can.

[David Whysong]

Wow, there are lots of replies here... both 'yea' and 'nay' and many other useful things besides. Thanks, everyone.

There seems to be a consensus that I should read more, practice, and simplify my film selection (though no consensus as to which film to use, which isn't surprising I guess). I'll work on that, and I'll definitely practice setting up and shooting (without film). I'll take some test photos in order to judge exposure. Also, I want to get some cheap photo-sensitive paper to put in the film holders and check that everything is light-tight.

The 135mm Optar seems to have a good shutter, so I plan to use that for the landscape photos. I don't plan to use the 127mm.

I'm familiar with the 'hat trick' and I might be able to do that. The Zeiss lens uses 77mm filters, and even ND filters aren't cheap in that size. Instead of using ND filters, I may try to find some surplus polarizing film, and use crossed polarizers to form a continuously-variable ND filter. (Metering is simple - put the filters in front of the Nikon, meter, then put the filters on the LF camera without changing the angle.)

As for the various other manual/homemade shutter ideas... they're clever! I'm not convinced that the gravity-powered sliding shutter is a good idea; friction will be a factor, and if your front standard is tilted from vertical then you have to do some math to calculate the shutter speed. It doesn't seem practical, but it is a nifty idea. Similarly, the wrist-flick shutter is clever - I like that you can adjust the shutter speed by changing the opening angle - but I don't think I could get a reliable exposure that way.