How to identify Horseman monorail camera models

[Califmike33]

Been doing some digging around can't seem to nail down how to identify a horseman 4x5 camera. I did find some old threads. I'm thinking of buying one off of eBay and it's listed as an LX but there are so many versions that look absolutely identical how do I tell them apart? From what I understand there are LX, LS, Le, 450 basically they all look the same if you look at them in a photo you can't tell the difference.

I have a guy on eBay that has one for cheap in mint condition I don't think he even knows what it is it's listed as an LX but I doubt that it is.

[pchong]

The LX has an additional micrometer scale nearest the standard holder (green arrow) to allow you to rise/fall the tilt axis up or down. This is in addition to the regular rise/fall geared controls (red arrow). The other models lack this ability, and only have the red arrow rise/fall.

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[Tin Can]

I would tell you

but I am not ready to

only a week ago I posted about this

Hint search B&H

I have them all

[Bernice Loui]

Take the time to look over the old B&H view camera catalog from back in them days.. Listings and info from Arca Swiss to Toyo.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section03bLgFormatView.pdf

There was a time not too long ago when Horseman L series monorails were beyond extreme bargains on the market as they were widely un-appreciated for what they are (excellent monorail). Having owned/used the Horseman L series in the past, they are nice in many ways and some what interchangeable with Sinar modules. It was possible to purchase the basic Horseman LE for a bit more than $100 or the cost of a few boxes of 4x5 film back in them days.. Not any more as with most things view camera, the market popularity has increased their value.. Don't get caught up in "features" as any of these Horseman L series is fully capable of most any combination of camera movements front and rear needed. Features are essentially time savers when used properly, ponder if you're working in a commercial studio environment pressed to produce a mountain of sheet film with deadlines around your neck and a mountain of bill that must be paid... In this specific environment is when these view camera "features" can make a difference ~and~ these feature must be properly used if they are to have any benefits. Know this is nothing like digital or 35mm or 120 roll film cameras where features and options are a "thing" that is marketed to sell gear. Think buttons on them old VCR or similar remotes where 90+ % of them buttons are never used.. with less than 10% of them buttons are ever used.

Realities are, at the beginning of trying to learn how to view camera, there are SO many skills and knowledge that must be gained and developed, don't overly focus on the camera.. focus on getting -A- good camera (IMO, a good modular monorail) then work hard at learning, acquiring, developing the skills and knowledge on how to view camera. What can become a serious obstacle is a view camera or Lenin shutter that fights you and does not do what they are required to do with little confusion or difficulty in operation as it is difficult enough to learn how to view camera.. any obstacles added will make the learning curve that much more difficult.

As for "condition".. beauty is only finish deep.. What is far more important is functionality.. That beauty on the top visible part of the finish can and will never make your images more ... beautiful...


Bernice



Been doing some digging around can't seem to nail down how to identify a horseman 4x5 camera. I did find some old threads. I'm thinking of buying one off of eBay and it's listed as an LX but there are so many versions that look absolutely identical how do I tell them apart? From what I understand there are LX, LS, Le, 450 basically they all look the same if you look at them in a photo you can't tell the difference.

I have a guy on eBay that has one for cheap in mint condition I don't think he even knows what it is it's listed as an LX but I doubt that it is.

[ic-racer]

https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/horseman_2.pdf

[Tin Can]

Many Horseman Studio camera were heavily used and abused

Back when they were unwanted by anybody, I often bought two 1/2 damaged to gain one good enough

Rear movement often hide gear rack damage

NOT simple to fix, designed for expert to fix

I am not that guy

Got a custom 8X10 on this forum with only front movements

I thanked that member long ago

Horseman studio cameras are VERY heavy, made for STUDIO only

and a PITA with Polaroid, I still have some

[Tin Can]

Also NO PARTS anywhere

[Bernice Loui]

Correct..

Many of these L series Horseman cameras were used HARD daily in working studios. They have burned many Thousand sheets of film over their years of service.

This is true for the majority of better monorail cameras as they were image making tools used by those to put food on their table and a roof over their head. Few were "babied" and put on a shelf to be admired.. It was mostly all about their ability to produce images.. Similar applies to view camera lenses from that era.


Used/owned monorail cameras from Arca Swiss to Toyo, only the Sinar modular system remains and recently added the Linhof Technikardan 23s due to the need for a 2x3_6x9 roll film view camera.. Previous to this was the Arca Swiss 69.

Bernice




Also NO PARTS anywhere

[Califmike33]

Well I appreciate all of your guys responses that helps me a lot that link that takes me to the catalog to show me all the different models does not work at least on my phone I cannot connect to that link.

The guy I'm interested in buying the camera from says the camera weighs 8.5 lb which is not terribly heavy for a full monorail camera. They just look like they're built like a tank and very precision with all the gear movements I'm interested in one. I was just unsure how to identify them but I guess I won't get caught up in all the models because there's too many damn models and they all look the same.

[Califmike33]

Here's a link to the eBay listing maybe you guys can tell me what model you think this is.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285063289504?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=IWmDAlo0RGa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=G-qt1-8jQt2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[Bernice Loui]

This is a basic Horseman LE model...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/285063289504?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=IWmDAlo0RGa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=G-qt1-8jQt2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


Once upon long ago Horseman LM (near identical to the LX, no focus plane rise), has a new home now. Difference is in the base, expandable rail and added camera movement features. Sold this and the other Horseman L series (still have a few Horseman accessories that needs a home), kept the Sinar system and used to this day.

Know these Horseman L series are no "light weights" they are intended to be used as indoor/studio cameras. Precise, accurate, very stable with geared movements.

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Horseman LM/LX/LXC were Horseman's market reply to the Sinar P/P2/X... Working Fotographers and market decided on the Sinar P/P2/X over the Horseman offerings... Most of these sold in Japan. Eventually Horseman discontinued the L series, while Sinar evolved the P2 into the P3 which is the digital back version of their decades young design..

Oh, if you're really hankering for a Horseman LX, KEH has one, it's the real deal..
https://www.keh.com/horseman-4x5-lx-view-camera-body-679673.html?aid=254351-590909&utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Horseman&utm_term=254351-590909&gclid=CjwKCAiAp7GcBhA0EiwA9U0mtl4tvZUpMTEsGwQTlGJucE3VzhH0klQ94H9eluucSiizB7W7XbmFVhoC8GUQAvD_BwE

Oh, Oh,... KEH has an LXC too _!_
https://www.keh.com/shop/horseman-4x5-lx-c-view-camera-body-679674.html?rrec=true


Bernice




Here's a link to the eBay listing maybe you guys can tell me what model you think this is.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285063289504?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=IWmDAlo0RGa&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=G-qt1-8jQt2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[Califmike33]

Thank you very much for that information it looks like a fantastic camera to me.

[Bernice Loui]

They are nice, but limited in many ways... or why no more Horseman L series these days.
Only need one GOOD modular monorail camera system. More is never better.

Bernice



Thank you very much for that information it looks like a fantastic camera to me.

[Califmike33]

The one on eBay I spoke to the guy he says it looks like a Target ever even been touched looks like a good deal also the k e h one looks like a good deal.

[Califmike33]

Let me ask you a question is it possible to take this apart and get it into a backpack to take on a you know maybe a mile mile and a half walk off the side of the road or is that unrealistic?

[Bernice Loui]

Sure, the LX/LXC/LM is take-apart-able.. weights about 6.3Kg or almost 14 pounds of camera alone..

Then add tripod & head, lenses, film holders, light meter, dark cloth, focusing loupe, cable release, outfit case and more.. all up, gonna be a LOT more than 14 pounds.

Feeling like ~A~ sherpa_?_


Bernice



Let me ask you a question is it possible to take this apart and get it into a backpack to take on a you know maybe a mile mile and a half walk off the side of the road or is that unrealistic?

[Califmike33]

I get your point. The guy on eBay told me he put it on a scale said it only weighed 9 lb. 16 16 lb you can forget it plus lens is dark cloth yeah you're talking 25 lb on my back.

[Califmike33]

I have another question with the standard rail how wide of a lens can I shoot?

[Bernice Loui]

Sinar Norma or F/F1/F2 about 6-7 pounds, foldable, packable, modular, expandable, easy to get camera, affordable and accessories easy and ...
There are very real reasons why some that have been at this view camera stuff for decades gravitate to Sinar..
At the beginning of this LF view camera journey these carnalities are often not appreciated.. until the limitations of the current view camera is fully realized.


Bernice



I get your point. The guy on eBay told me he put it on a scale said it only weighed 9 lb. 16 16 lb you can forget it plus lens is dark cloth yeah you're talking 25 lb on my back.

[Bernice Loui]

On a Sinar 5x4.. 47mm with a bag bellows (aprox $50) accessory, no recessed lens board, Full camera movements to the absolute limits of the lens..
Been there, done this lots.

Previously on LFF:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?78241-47mm-on-4x5-camera

Bernice



I have another question with the standard rail how wide of a lens can I shoot?

[Califmike33]

I'm just looking to shoot a 90 mm lens without having to change the bellows or the rail on The horseman LX.

[Tin Can]

Most likely need a recessed lensboard

Don' t buy a Horseman

Read some books


I'm just looking to shoot a 90 mm lens without having to change the bellows or the rail on The horseman LX.

[Califmike33]

Don't buy a horseman okay why is that?

[Tin Can]

Because you don't need it, way too heavy too

Also every member on this forum has a different plan for everything

That makes it fun for us

I am a book learner, I read a lot, always have

Here is my final suggestion

4X5 90mm lens just like one of mine

3D printed, super lightweight, super sharp tiny lens

No tripod, handheld. I use flash bulbs, but a modern strobe will work

This is one shot, guessing at exposure and distance, no focus, the square metal is the viewfinder

3AM bar closed my best friends at that time, 10 years ago

Not perfect, no crop, I like it and that is all that is needed

I will post the camera IF YOU are interested

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51246617432_8b68c24c02_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m5uiXw)Turbo (https://flic.kr/p/2m5uiXw) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51246617432_8b68c24c02_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m5uiXw)Turbo (https://flic.kr/p/2m5uiXw) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr






Don't buy a horseman okay why is that?

[Tin Can]

The first version and actual camera I used use

NOW I have the same lens on a Printed copy

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51248445375_bf44aa4efa_c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/6z8P2v8S5B)1 4X5 Plastic KickStarter Made in Chicagp (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/6z8P2v8S5B) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Califmike33]

Very interesting.

[Califmike33]

Take the time to look over the old B&H view camera catalog from back in them days.. Listings and info from Arca Swiss to Toyo.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section03bLgFormatView.pdf

There was a time not too long ago when Horseman L series monorails were beyond extreme bargains on the market as they were widely un-appreciated for what they are (excellent monorail). Having owned/used the Horseman L series in the past, they are nice in many ways and some what interchangeable with Sinar modules. It was possible to purchase the basic Horseman LE for a bit more than $100 or the cost of a few boxes of 4x5 film back in them days.. Not any more as with most things view camera, the market popularity has increased their value.. Don't get caught up in "features" as any of these Horseman L series is fully capable of most any combination of camera movements front and rear needed. Features are essentially time savers when used properly, ponder if you're working in a commercial studio environment pressed to produce a mountain of sheet film with deadlines around your neck and a mountain of bill that must be paid... In this specific environment is when these view camera "features" can make a difference ~and~ these feature must be properly used if they are to have any benefits. Know this is nothing like digital or 35mm or 120 roll film cameras where features and options are a "thing" that is marketed to sell gear. Think buttons on them old VCR or similar remotes where 90+ % of them buttons are never used.. with less than 10% of them buttons are ever used.

Realities are, at the beginning of trying to learn how to view camera, there are SO many skills and knowledge that must be gained and developed, don't overly focus on the camera.. focus on getting -A- good camera (IMO, a good modular monorail) then work hard at learning, acquiring, developing the skills and knowledge on how to view camera. What can become a serious obstacle is a view camera or Lenin shutter that fights you and does not do what they are required to do with little confusion or difficulty in operation as it is difficult enough to learn how to view camera.. any obstacles added will make the learning curve that much more difficult.

As for "condition".. beauty is only finish deep.. What is far more important is functionality.. That beauty on the top visible part of the finish can and will never make your images more ... beautiful...



G
Bernice

Great information on the BH photo link, if i get on its the LE its the lightest at 9 pounds.

[Bernice Loui]

Horseman L series, 90mm with the standard bellow is just ok at infinity focus. 90mm with the bag bellows is significantly better for camera movements. 75mm at infinity focus is about it for standard or bag bellows as the front/rear standards are not able to come together close enough without camera contortions.. Horseman spec is 65mm, not gonna happen. This is why using a recessed lens board is a must and why another reasons why Horseman L series is limiting. There is a limit to how much camera/bellows draw can be had which is another limitations. Yes, the more deluxe models have a expandable rail, once fully extended the accessory standard and extra bellows will be needed. Adding more camera/bellows extension become "interesting" beyond this standard offering..

These are good to excellent as indoor/studio table top or similar. There are media images of AA using Horseman L.. but not with a really wide angle/short focal length lens..

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Marketing...


Bernice







I'm just looking to shoot a 90 mm lens without having to change the bellows or the rail on The horseman LX.

[bgh]

Let me ask you a question is it possible to take this apart and get it into a backpack to take on a you know maybe a mile mile and a half walk off the side of the road or is that unrealistic?

It is fairly quick process to pack it up, but not by taking it apart. Instead, the front and rear standards can be rotated so that they are parallel to the bottom rail, making for a long but relatively thin thing to drop into a top-loading rucksack. I carry it in the field with me for HABS/HAER projects--I definitely earn my dinners on those days with the effort, but I find it worth it. I have also done some limited hiking in the Organ Mountains in NM, stripping down the kit as much as possible. I find it to be a most remarkable camera, I hope to finish out my career with the thing.

Bruce

[bgh]

Horseman L series, 90mm with the standard bellow is just ok at infinity focus. 90mm with the bag bellows is significantly better for camera movements. 75mm at infinity focus is about it for standard or bag bellows as the front/rear standards are not able to come together close enough without camera contortions.. Horseman spec is 65mm, not gonna happen. This is why using a recessed lens board is a must and why another reasons why Horseman L series is limiting. There is a limit to how much camera/bellows draw can be had which is another limitations. Yes, the more deluxe models have a expandable rail, once fully extended the accessory standard and extra bellows will be needed. Adding more camera/bellows extension become "interesting" beyond this standard offering..

These are good to excellent as indoor/studio table top or similar. There are media images of AA using Horseman L.. but not with a really wide angle/short focal length lens..

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Marketing...


Bernice

I've found that by flipping the front standard and using a bag bellows, I can get more movements with my 75mm lens than the lens will cover.

Bruce

[Tin Can]

NOT for carry, but once I assembled two 700mm Horse rails with the optional Horse connector plate

Needed a few bellows and frames

[Califmike33]

The le model weighs 9 lb that's not beyond carrying. The s i n a r f2 weighs 16 lb, the Sinar F1 weighs 7.0 lb neither one of those would be that tough to carry except for the f2.

I've had several people in this forum private message me that carry a monorail camera out to do landscape and to do all kinds of different types of photography.

[BrianShaw]

... carry a monorail camera out to do landscape and to do all kinds of different types of photography.

It can be done, for sure, if one is physically fit. I've done it but soon started photographing within close proximity to the car. It's carrying the camera, and the tripod, and the lens(es), and ...

My monorail weighs 8 lb and I think the tripod may weigh a bit more. The system I use is to keep the camera in its case with the case attached to a large-wheel luggage trolley, which I strap teh tripod to and lug behind me on trails. Then set up when I see something worth photographing. There are ways but, trust me, it is easier to use a lighter camera rig.

So did you buy a Horseman? A very nice camera that you can do a lot with!

[Bernice Loui]

Sinar F/F+/F1/F2.. 7 pounds believable..

Sinar F2 ... 16 pounds NO possible way. Possible for a P or P2 which is not the same camera, at all.

Previously on LFF, see post# 15. Sinar F folds up for transport. This is FAR easier to do than taking it apart.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?165947-Hunting-for-that-special-4x5-my-first-LF-camera/page2

Sinar F2 folded up.
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Difference between Sinar F(clear anodized aluminum)/F1(black) is F1 is all black and some minor improvements in the mechanicals including ground glass frame lifters to aid in film holder access.
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F2 has front focus and separate shift/swing control locks.
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Horseman L does not fold up. It is designed to be taken apart then put back together for transport. Again, Horseman L series was originally designed, intended, marketed to be a indoor studio camera.. Alternative is to carry it assembled in a case that suspends the camera on it's rail. calumet and others made monorail cases like these years ago.


Bernice




The le model weighs 9 lb that's not beyond carrying. The s i n a r f2 weighs 16 lb, the Sinar F1 weighs 7.0 lb neither one of those would be that tough to carry except for the f2.

I've had several people in this forum private message me that carry a monorail camera out to do landscape and to do all kinds of different types of photography.

[Bernice Loui]

Folding up a monorail to transport is slow to set up and too much hassle. 5x7 Sinar Norma is transported whole on a short_ed rail that fits into sockets on a modified Pelican case. Norma goes direct with lens and Sinar shutter on to the Sinar rail clamp on a Sinar pan/tilt head. Set up takes less than 30 seconds from case to tripod. Add rail extensions as needed then proceed with the set up.

Case contains: 5x7 Norma, four lenses, bag bellows, Sinar shutter, 6" rain, 12" rail, light meter, dark cloth, GG loupe, cable release, filters and filter holder, tape measure, spare battery for the light meter, six 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders. Tripod is elastic corded to the roller Pelican case.
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(yes, the# 25A red filter is taped to the front of the center filter)

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Bernice




I've had several people in this forum private message me that carry a monorail camera out to do landscape and to do all kinds of different types of photography.

[Califmike33]

It can be done, for sure, if one is physically fit. I've done it but soon started photographing within close proximity to the car. It's carrying the camera, and the tripod, and the lens(es), and ...

My monorail weighs 8 lb and I think the tripod may weigh a bit more. The system I use is to keep the camera in its case with the case attached to a large-wheel luggage trolley, which I strap teh tripod to and lug behind me on trails. Then set up when I see something worth photographing. There are ways but, trust me, it is easier to use a lighter camera rig.

So did you buy a Horseman? A very nice camera that you can do a lot with!



I have bought nothing yetttt, just looking at both and weight and features but leaning heavy on Sinar F1 not F2

[Califmike33]

I stand corrected the SINAR F2 weighs 6 pounds not 16 it was a typo. Now 6 pounds is wayyyyyyy doable, heck most good field cameras weight half that. Bernice you the man thanks for all the photos.

I saw that thread how it he packs his F2 very nice. You say the Horseman L has to to be take apart ? like bellows off, front standard and rear come off rail. Front and rear standard lay on top of eaachother, rail comes off mount, its some work but doesnt look that hard to do really. Look like it would pack smaller than the F2 if you took the Horse L apart and just folded the F2. To me the weight difference is alot your talking 3 pounds between the 2 cameras.

People have PM me and said i carry a monorail into the woods and i deal with it, others have said its to much hassle and to much weight, but i say 6 pounds for a camera that size and the ability you have once your in the woods is worth it.

[Bernice Loui]

Linhof Technikardan 23s, 6x9 on 120 roll film.. weights 6.2 pounds.. about the same as a Sinar F/F+/F1... F2 slightly more.

Is also transported whole with lens in a modified case that lock the TK23s into a Hasselblad tripod quick release mounted to the side of the case. Flip the HB tripod quick release plate un-does the TK23s from the case which is then put direct and whole on to the tripod's Hasselblad quick release plate. Takes no more than 30 seconds to set up.

Case contains: four to five lenses, bag bellows, light meter, Hoodman GG hood, GG loupe, cable release, filters and filter holder, tape measure, spare battery for the light meter, 6x9 super rollex roll film holder, rolls of 120 film if needed.
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Do this for enough decades, ways_means will be developed and implemented to meet the specific needs and make it all go easier with efficiency and effort-resource reduction. What is tolerable, what is not tolerable?

Bernice

[BrianShaw]

You must be a young man, Mike. There was a day when I could carry any of my camera bags for days on end. Now I wonder how I did that as they are H-E-A-V-Y. The monorail… no way. It’s not just the camera; it’s everything else!

[Bernice Loui]

Yes indeediee, IMO far too much focus on the ~weight~ of the camera when all else required to allow any view camera to record any image often adds up to a LOT more than the camera alone. It is part of the lens fixed to the box camera (digital or roll film) habituated mind-set.. where the camera is essentially self contained and that is most of the weight-bulk of the image recording device. This mind-set, belief, value system and all Does Not Apply to this view camera stuff..

~Or why the constant crowing about focusing less on the weight/bulk of the view camera alone as there is a pile more required to make any view camera "go"..


Bernice




Now I wonder how I did that as they are H-E-A-V-Y. The monorail… no way. It’s not the camera; it’s everything else!

[Bernice Loui]

Sinar F is not difficult to transport as there are many ways to do this from fold up, to shorted rail transported whole, taken apart and more. This ability and feature comes out of Sinar modularity.. Most important as noted in post# 15, "The Sinar F series is not that heavy and can be folded for transport in several different ways. It is also a perfect learners camera, as its easy to see the movements and their effects."
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?165947-Hunting-for-that-special-4x5-my-first-LF-camera/page2

At this point, the most important goal is to learn how to view camera using a camera that is easy to learn on with no fuss, few hassles, bad behavior and all those details a lesser view camera can and will cause grief with due to a very long list of reasons..

Here it is again, the Horseman LM taken apart then fitted to it's case. Un-do the bellows (easy) fold up the standards (not always easy to do), set the entire folded up camera specific to the way it must fit in the case with rail. Get this wrong and it will not fit properly. There is fidget involved.. Oh, notice there is zero room in this Horseman case for anything other than the... camera.

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Bernice



I stand corrected the SINAR F2 weighs 6 pounds not 16 it was a typo. Now 6 pounds is wayyyyyyy doable, heck most good field cameras weight half that. Bernice you the man thanks for all the photos.

I saw that thread how it he packs his F2 very nice. You say the Horseman L has to to be take apart ? like bellows off, front standard and rear come off rail. Front and rear standard lay on top of eaachother, rail comes off mount, its some work but doesnt look that hard to do really. Look like it would pack smaller than the F2 if you took the Horse L apart and just folded the F2. To me the weight difference is alot your talking 3 pounds between the 2 cameras.

People have PM me and said i carry a monorail into the woods and i deal with it, others have said its to much hassle and to much weight, but i say 6 pounds for a camera that size and the ability you have once your in the woods is worth it.

[Califmike33]

Sinar F is not difficult to transport as there are many ways to do this from fold up, to shorted rail transported whole, taken apart, and more. This ability and feature come out of Sinar modularity. Most important as noted in post# 15, "The Sinar F series is not that heavy and can be folded for transport in several different ways. It is also a perfect learner's camera, as it's easy to see the movements and their effects."
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?165947-Hunting-for-that-special-4x5-my-first-LF-camera/page2

At this point, the most important goal is to learn how to view a camera using a camera that is easy to learn with no fuss, few hassles, bad behavior, and all those details a lesser view camera can and will cause grief with due to a very long list of reasons.

Here it is again, the Horseman LM taken apart and then fitted to its case. Un-do the bellows (easy) fold up the standards (not always easy to do) and set the entire folded-up camera specific to the way it must fit in the case with rail. Get this wrong and it will not fit properly. There is fidget involved. Oh, notice there is zero room in this Horseman case for anything other than the... camera.

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Bernice

You're right Bernice it's about learning and the fact it's 6 pounds on top is great. I know about the one on Igors, I'm looking at his and another one i found mint in the box still for a little more, sorry I'm kinda picky about looks can't help it. That HM L fits that case like a glove with 0 room left.

[Bernice Loui]

Offering from Igor is a complete kit, ready to go with right to return if there is a problem..

"Mint" in box will need lens board, extra rail and much more, might not be returnable and all that.

"Mint" means about zero in the overall scheme of image making.. Most camera folks would cringe at how some of the Sinar stuff was treated/used in years past. They easily survived, got the image made with no worst for "normal wear"...


Bernice



You right Bernice its about learing and the fact its 6 pounds on top is a great. I know about the one on Igors, im looking at his and another one i found mint in the box still for a little more, sorry im kinda picky about looks cant help it.

[Califmike33]

I will have Igor send me photos, i dont buy sight unseen without photos at least, he will be back on the 7th i will contact him. Igors is a dam good price compared to the stuff on ebay and Keh.

[Bernice Loui]

Purchased plenty from Igor signs un-seen, never disappointed, never had an issue to date, never had any need to return as Igor advertises as described. Igor has been at this foto wheel'en_deal'en stuff for years.. if Igor was not good at this, they would have been long gone years ago. That said, fotos are semi-useful as fotos alone does not tell the entire story. IMO, function is more important than beauty alone.

Think KEH, Used Photo Pro, MPB and other good/honest foto dealers.. eBay.. sometimes good, some times ok, some times _!_ NO way _!_..

The other place to shop is the LFF for sale/trade ads..


Bernice



I will have Igor send me photos, i dont buy sight unseen without photos at least, he will be back on the 7th i will contact him.

[Califmike33]

Ok, yeah i KEH has a good rep, never heard of used photo Pro. Went on Used Photo Pro looks like a good place for photo gear.

[pchong]

Is there a way to fold a Sinar P/P2/X like the Horseman? I figure the geared swings will make putting the standards parallel to the rail will be a chore.



You're right Bernice it's about learning and the fact it's 6 pounds on top is great. I know about the one on Igors, I'm looking at his and another one i found mint in the box still for a little more, sorry I'm kinda picky about looks can't help it. That HM L fits that case like a glove with 0 room left.

[Califmike33]

Is there a way to fold a Sinar P/P2/X like the Horseman? I figure the geared swings will make putting the standards parallel to the rail will be a chore.

Im curious how hard it is to packing that HM LX.

[Tin Can]

BTW Bernice

Horseman L on the short rail folds easily and quickly into a briefcase

Yes, nothing else fits

SINAR sold a wood box with back pack straps and holds enough for usage, lenses, DDS, extensions, etc

I have one and even field tested it

I got it LN from KEH

Cheap

[Tin Can]

If OP is still here

Here is Horseman Camera catalog archived by B&H NYC

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/FrameWork/Product_Resources/SourceBookProPhoto/Section03bLgFormatView.pdf

[Califmike33]

You know there are so many weights being posted for the s i n a r f2 the official b&h catalog says 8 lb. I'm assuming that is probably the correct ways 6 lb as I previously found on the internet seems awfully light for a full monorail camera.

The official weight of the horsemen Le is 9.9 lb according to the b&h catalog so there's a 2 lb difference between the two cameras which is not significant but if you're carrying it in the woods or out of the studio 2 lb makes a difference.

[Daniel Unkefer]

If you are looking for a Sinar consider the Norma. I lucked into this one for $250

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52222110706_e670893d10_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nyFY85)18x24 Mammo Shortie Sawed Off Norma (https://flic.kr/p/2nyFY85) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is a test shot (my Shorty Norma) French Kodak 18x24cm Mammo Film, processed in D23 1:1. Taking camera is my new Annie/Avedon inspired 8x10 Norma. I applied 30 degrees of front and rear swing, the Norma original recessed lensboard is sharp all the way across the field. I like how the DOF drops off with the 360mm f5.6 Norma Symmar. There appears to be highlight blooming, which I find kind of attractive. Best thing about this film was that it was not at all expensive. And I have a lot of it. 500 sheets right now

My "Shorty Sawed-Off Norma" has a basic rail cut down, to just accomodate a 120mm lens. Here it is shown with the 47mm f8 Super Angulon, which I am looking forward to using a lot with 2x3 and 6x9. This is not a telephoto camera, but I can easily lift and carry it with one hand without strain. The lowly Star-D tripod is sturdy enough with this setup, given proper time to settle down. I cut both ends off a basic Norma rail with my Lil Machine Shop Bandsaw. So it is now simply a hollow tube perfect length for Field and Architecture.

I'd take this rig over a wooden field camera IMO. Radical camera movements are easily possible. Accessories are abundant. Weight cut down to bare minimum. Really shines with 2x3 and 6x9. Does all I need to do with 4x5 wide. Really light to carry around, can carry it one-handed. Normas are priced across the board, I paid a lot for my first one. Bargains are around too :)

[Califmike33]

I saw good reviews on the Norma on different sites and youtube.

[Daniel Unkefer]

If you want to go down the rabbit hole with Norma, www.glennview.com and select Sinar.

[Tin Can]

Yes, glennview has it all and knows more

I have been inside his sanctuary and he visited mine

I bought very rare items

[Califmike33]

Question for all you pro photographers, I'm getting the F2 it has a huge mounting plate on the bottom where it goes on a tripod, do i need a special plate to mount it to the ball head?

[BrianShaw]

Ball heads tend to be difficult to control with a heavy view camera. A 3-axis head is much more manageable.

A quick release, though, really makes set-up/tear-down easier.

[Califmike33]

Ball heads tend to be difficult to control with a heavy view camera. A 3-axis head is much more manageable.

A quick release, though, really makes set-up/tear-down easier.

Already bought a Benro GX35 ball head. I need to find a way to make it work somehow.

[BrianShaw]

Already bought a Benro GX35 ball head. I need to find a way to make it work somehow.

You can make that work. I find the ball head to make leveling a heavy camera just a bit more difficult. I’m not experienced with Benro but doesn’t that head include a quick-release plate? If so, that plate should be connected to the mount of your Sinar.

[Bernice Loui]

Sinar rail clamp base diameter is 75mm with slots to prevent rotation when used with the Sinar pan/tilt head..

That ball head will be no fun at all to use with a Sinar or most any view camera due to the inability to position the camera as needed in tiny increments. Loosen the ball to adjust and the entire "rig" goes all kat-O-wampus.. Even with ball heads that have "singe axis" locking movements, the problem remains...

Ball tripod heads are another digital or roll film habit carry over. Most common with folks that do not want to use a tripod if possible. If a tripod is used, lowest degree of fuss with a small camera became the typical.. Ball heads are sorta ok with these digital or roll film cameras, flat frustrating in too many ways with a Good view camera.

Recommend/suggest cancel or return the order for the Benro GX35 ball head, purchase this Sinar pan/tilt or wait for another Sinar pan/tilt head.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/364070628609?hash=item54c44ced01&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8B0U0p%252Fwv4VdHQnXQShT1FUfIbJkS9xfK6g9EtujoRD2IpZzvzHtakEH9VA5i1KrrxJ5iG3GYjRCZbrXVUSgF7IixHI9TNRiMJx1qwKsl3%252FQeenfh7MknZUAHvSl3ddIz%252Fp%252B3SXwUrWmSYtUuEprwZ5koEpk%252B%252BOtaXBA0vYzz48OB9VElxVMpxwy2yJdGoyKhbR7IwvfJ8cziZJFxMU7CAVnA681yW%252FAULD%252Bv3zi8qlJD7pWC3P%252FNu61PLRhsTSCafQ4CuFc%252FzvTakurHDLmxqGMRzuPHaVpU5%252BQYjaq0OEGxlnmxhqpjZZy2Ku%252BdneljA%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK

Much about functionality, it the pan tilt head is "mint" it will not be "mint" for long due to the way camera supports are used.. The decades young Sinar pan tilt is a LOT more beat up than this one, continues to do what must be done with zero issues..

No "quick release" needed as the rail clamp works as the quick release. Only pan and tilt motions are needed as the camera rotates on the rail clamp allowing what would have been the third axis of movement required.

There is a made in China copy, not the same as the real Sinar pan/tilt head.. There are very real reasons why there are knock-off copies of the Sinar pan/tilt.. it is That Good.. previously on LFF:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?152787-Sinar-Pan-Tilt-head-from-China-Impressed/page2


Bernice



Already bought a Benro GX35 ball head. I need to find a way to make it work somehow.

[Califmike33]

I will return it tomorrow well I feel stupid you told me in the email what to buy. I return my whole tripod and ball head today and traded it for that ball head I'll have to go back and look like an idiot tomorrow. Is there anything else out there besides the sinar head ? . Is there something more common readily available that I can buy in a camera store or b&h photo that will work that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

[Bernice Loui]

Most any better traditional three way tripods work good, no quick release needed. The head only needs to fit a 75mm diameter base..
That is about it..

Keep in mind majority of modern tripods are designed and made for digital to medium sized film or a light weight field folder view cameras that greatly benefit from a quick release plate. This is why most of then have a QR plate built in. The other modern camera centric feature is the ball head. Neither works that will with a Sinar.

Bernice

[BrianShaw]

Sigh…

[Califmike33]

This is making me reconsider getting the f2. I'll look around see what I can find.

How convenient they have their own mounting tripod head with some strange round bottom. The horseman has a standard square bottom.

[Oren Grad]

How convenient they have their own mounting tripod head with some strange round bottom.

There's a reason for it. There are protruding pins on the Sinar pan-tilt head that mate with slots on the Sinar rail clamp to prevent the camera from twisting on the mount, something that heavy monorail cameras are very prone to do if it's just flat surface against flat surface.

[Bernice Loui]

See post# 52. The Sinar Norma is on a Tilt Tall tripod, zero special about this tripod, been in production for decades, works good with any Sinar..
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?171212-How-to-identify-Horseman-monorail-camera-models/page6

Tilt Tall tripods are still made, good used for less. If you go this route,
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1237245-REG/tiltall_tripod_te_01b_te_original_series_tripod.html

the original Tiltall #4602 by E. Leitz are good before they were purchased by _?_, then they became not as good.

And no, the 75mm diameter base is not special. Just extra features if used within the Sinar system.

Again, most any traditional three way tripod head works good.

Sinar pan/tilt head is the ideal head for the Sinar system, not mandatory in any way.

Bernice



This is making me reconsider getting the f2. I'll look around see what I can find.

How convenient they have their own mounting tripod head with some strange round bottom. The horseman has a standard square bottom.

[Califmike33]

Like this ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183068773697?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=H5-3nRAvRi2&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=G-qt1-8jQt2&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

$300 is steep.

Well Bernice that Tilt Tall looks to fit the bill nicely, never heard of them but looks doable, that link i followed and not bad price.

[Bernice Loui]

That is the made in China copy previously discussed on LFF:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?152787-Sinar-Pan-Tilt-head-from-China-Impressed&highlight=sinar+pan+tilt+china


Even this $75 plus shipping will do for now:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/394356551368?hash=item5bd17b6ec8:g:o04AAOSwx4RjhtHj&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoBtwVsUIzFKXdg%2Frzd2lJOQiuUgvzypH3UcssIe0e3dZOF2Z9nC5Yd6D1sgerZVtshqhr3KMePH6%2BoPgSKTl%2FOP2J8zpNLPhVg3h403oxXmWfhGxAZ9mbg%2FP9M3pCQ3fLkeoMJqqCXz9XhYply4sXa4g1YP2VulA%2B7FCFpFUSnIVGX2FE3568yMJOt2gVh8WwccirZl85qVDK5NS6H7SU9U%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4iYu_qdYQ

Again, most any good traditional three way tripod head will do.


Bernice


Like this ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/183068773697?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=H5-3nRAvRi2&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=G-qt1-8jQt2&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

$300 is steep.

Well Bernice that Tilt Tall looks to fit the bill nicely, never heard of them but looks doable, that link i followed and not bad price.

[Califmike33]

Ok, i will probably just buy the new one-off BH photo, heck i paid the same amount just for my GX35 ball head. Thanks again seem like a quick fix to the problem. I like the Tilt Tall has that big round base, don't like there's no quick release.


After looking around i like the Ebay Chinese Sinar copy head, the guy has 100% feed back and sold 60 of them and no one has complained, they look pretty solid, i think i will get that. The Tilt all is heavy over 6 pounds.

[Tin Can]

I keep a Horseman Optical Bench Rail on a Majestic Tripod head and my favorite QR

For studio work

It adjusts any direction with gears for Macro

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51573451382_e04f38d5c5_c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/040TTsfW66)Horseman Optical Bench (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/040TTsfW66) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Califmike33]

Very cool.

[Califmike33]

So I ordered the Chinese s i n a r copy tripod mount from eBay. Now I'm going to go buy a tripod today do I need the top of the tripod to be 75 mm across or just a standard top of a tripod okay?

[Tin Can]

Yes 75mm is just enough, but I prefer a 100mm leveling bowl

https://www.google.com/search?q=100mm+leveling+bowl&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS850US850&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Seldom need more

[Califmike33]

Bought a Tripod today that has the 72mm bowl, i swore it was 75, but its like 2 7/8 inches, close enough.

[Tin Can]

Why not show us what you bought?

There are many studying us silently

Wallflowers

Dance now!

[Califmike33]

Okay when I get home I'll post a picture.

[Tin Can]

I suggest a new thread you make

Titled

'Show us your Tripod'

I have plenty to post, not all good, but I own them...sadly


Okay when I get home I'll post a picture.

[Califmike33]

Real funny how there are tons of Horseman L series 4x5 in great condition, but i cant find a Sinar F2 worth a shit, is it worth giving up a few movements and 2 pounds of weight to get a mint camera Horseman, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Tin Can]

Very few WANT or NEED a rail Horseman

and some are broken with no parts except at junk pile

SINAR and Horseman are easily broken by clumsy

as are Linhof, et al


Real funny how there are tons of Horseman L series 4x5 in great condition, but i cant find a Sinar F2 worth a shit, is it worth giving up a few movements and 2 pounds of weight to get a mint camera Horseman, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[BrianShaw]

What “few movements” does the Sinar have that the Horseman (or any other full-featured view camera) doesn’t?

In general, no matter what camera you decide to buy… functional condition is important. And for system cameras, the availability of system accessories that you might want/need.

[sharktooth]

The Sinar f cameras are great for parts if you're heavily invested in a "real" Sinar, like a Norma or P/X series. The Horseman is much nicer to use in every respect, other than for lugging weight.

I have two f series cameras that I got ridiculously cheap, and couldn't say no. The bellows and backs can be used on Horsemans and other Sinars, and the rails and supports can be used on other Sinars.

The f series is awkward to use compared to just about anything else, and I would be happy to use just about anything else. If you need a field camera, then get a camera that's designed for that purpose, not a Sinar f.

[Bernice Loui]

Horseman L series, nice to use... if you're left handed. That is where the camera movement controls are normally located. Been there done this...
233521

Same ergonomic issue with the Linhof Technikardan, this ergo issues is just tolerated due to the alternatives, which is Arca Swiss or not a lot for a 6x9 view camera.

Sinar has FAR better real world user ergonomics for right handed folks. Once can "slam" the build of the Sinar F series, yet they have endured the test of time and many millions sheets of film burned.. and there are plenty of them on the market to this day.. So, one can rate a camera strictly on mechanical build perception or judge the camera on actual real world image making..


Bernice






The Horseman is much nicer to use in every respect, other than for lugging weight.

[Califmike33]

I thought the horseman could be turned either way maybe I'm wrong I thought it could be right-handed or left-handed.

[Califmike33]

233522 Right handed ? I believe it comes both ways and can be changed.

[Bernice Loui]

Been there tried this, does not work quite "right"... from a right hander..

Bernice


233522 Right handed ? I believe it comes both ways and can be changed.

[Califmike33]

What “few movements” does the Sinar have that the Horseman (or any other full-featured view camera) doesn’t?

In general, no matter what camera you decide to buy… functional condition is important. And for system cameras, the availability of system accessories that you might want/need.


I agree.

[bgh]

Horseman L series, nice to use... if you're left handed. That is where the camera movement controls are normally located. Been there done this...
233521

Same ergonomic issue with the Linhof Technikardan, this ergo issues is just tolerated due to the alternatives, which is Arca Swiss or not a lot for a 6x9 view camera.

Sinar has FAR better real world user ergonomics for right handed folks. Once can "slam" the build of the Sinar F series, yet they have endured the test of time and many millions sheets of film burned.. and there are plenty of them on the market to this day.. So, one can rate a camera strictly on mechanical build perception or judge the camera on actual real world image making..


Bernice

I dunno, I'm a right hander I have found the Horseman L to be the most fantastic camera that I've ever used, including the Sinar F, which I got rid of after less than a year. Couldn't stand the thing.

I find the Horseman to be wonderful to work with--remarkably solid, easy to use, with a fantastic range of movements. I use it for my HABS/HAER field projects, so it sees a wide range of work--landscape, architecture, dams, bridges, etc. It folds easily and fits into a rucksack, together with a Tenba case containing six lenses and supporting gear. I can set thing up on my tripod within a minute or so, and changing between bag bellows and accordion bellows takes less than a minute. For a substantial HABS/HAER field job, I don't want to work with anything else. It is heavy, especially in the backpack with the lenses, but absolutely worth it.

Bruce

[Califmike33]

I dunno, I'm a right hander I have found the Horseman L to be the most fantastic camera that I've ever used, including the Sinar F, which I got rid of after less than a year. Couldn't stand the thing.

I find the Horseman to be wonderful to work with--remarkably solid, easy to use, with a fantastic range of movements. I use it for my HABS/HAER field projects, so it sees a wide range of work--landscape, architecture, dams, bridges, etc. It folds easily and fits into a rucksack, together with a Tenba case containing six lenses and supporting gear. I can set thing up on my tripod within a minute or so, and changing between bag bellows and accordion bellows takes less than a minute. For a substantial HABS/HAER field job, I don't want to work with anything else. It is heavy, especially in the backpack with the lenses, but absolutely worth it.

Bruce

Really Bruce ? thats great, i was back and forth with Sinar F2 and Horseman L, I just bought a F2 off ebay. I will try it out for a spell and see if i like, if not Horseman L is next camera.

What didnt you like about the Sinar F ?

[Califmike33]

Why not show us what you bought?

There are many studying us silently

Wallflowers

Dance now!



Benro TMA37C Tripod.

[BrianShaw]

Really Bruce ? thats great, i was back and forth with Sinar F2 and Horseman L, I just bought a F2 off ebay. I will try it out for a spell and see if i like, if not Horseman L is next camera.

What didnt you like about the Sinar F ?

Congratulations! Please start a new thread on this topic. Something like “Getting to know Sinar”… would love to hear about your experiences with this camera. Please, richly illustrate it. :)

[Tin Can]

Agree

I sometimes set up the 'L' s on opposing sides

Polaroids were blocked by L sometimes, but can be made


I dunno, I'm a right hander I have found the Horseman L to be the most fantastic camera that I've ever used, including the Sinar F, which I got rid of after less than a year. Couldn't stand the thing.

I find the Horseman to be wonderful to work with--remarkably solid, easy to use, with a fantastic range of movements. I use it for my HABS/HAER field projects, so it sees a wide range of work--landscape, architecture, dams, bridges, etc. It folds easily and fits into a rucksack, together with a Tenba case containing six lenses and supporting gear. I can set thing up on my tripod within a minute or so, and changing between bag bellows and accordion bellows takes less than a minute. For a substantial HABS/HAER field job, I don't want to work with anything else. It is heavy, especially in the backpack with the lenses, but absolutely worth it.

Bruce

[Tin Can]

I had a 5X7 SINAR P metering back

That damn thing would BITE my fingers

Sold all my SINAR P on this forum and scolded by Bryan for selling too cheap

[Califmike33]

I'm getting the feeling there are a lot of people here that don't like Sinar F series.

I just bought one off of eBay f2 I will post my thoughts I've never owned a horseman so I can't compare it but somebody commented it's awkward to use I'll let you know about that.

[sharktooth]

I'm getting the feeling there are a lot of people here that don't like Sinar F series.

I just bought one off of eBay f2 I will post my thoughts I've never owned a horseman so I can't compare it but somebody commented it's awkward to use I'll let you know about that.

Guilty, as charged.

Add me to the list of Horseman lovers, and Sinar f "haters" :)

It's not that there's anything "wrong" with the Sinar f series, it's just that they're stripped down utilitarian machines that are completely uninspiring. It's like comparing a Toyota Yaris to a Lexus. Will they both get ya where ya wanna go? Yep, but if you have a choice, which one would you choose?

The Sinar f series was made to a price point. Back in the day, this was a viable option for a working pro who needed a second or third body for secondary use, or where there might be more risk of damage (fewer tears shed). A P series camera would set you back several grand, but an f was about 1/4 to 1/3 the price, and shared all the same accessories, so it made practical sense.

There is absolutely nothing "luxury" about a Sinar f series camera. The only geared movement is the rear focusing (front and rear focusing on f2). The rise and fall adjustment is awkward due to the dual post design below the frame. Everything else is basic friction lock and adjustment. It all works, but that's all there really is to say about it.

On the other hand, the Horseman L series feels "luxury". The rise/fall and lateral shift are all geared movements, and feel great. Although they're on the left side, they can be easily actuated with one hand. The geared focus is on the right, so focus is easy to manage for right handers. Swing and tilt are friction lock, but there's ball bearings in there to make it smoooooth as silk. These babies simply ooze luxury.

The Sinar f series is kinda like the Pentax K1000 when comparing to a Horseman L kinda like a Nikon F3. They both take pictures fine.

The good news is that a lot of your Sinar f2 parts can be used on your Horseman after you realize your folly. ;)

Large format camera pricing is all over the map these days, so you're better off looking for a wider range of cameras instead of focusing on just one. There are very good deals to be found on Sinar P's and Normas, Cambos, Horseman, Toyos, Wistas, Linhofs, and many others. I've seen people asking ridiculous prices for Sinar f cameras because of the Sinar name. These are really bottom tier cameras that deserve bottom tier pricing. The good news is that the top tier cameras now cost barely more than the bottom tier stuff, so if you don't limit yourself you'll definitely find a good deal out there.

[BrianShaw]

At this point, Mike… perhaps your focus should be less on opinions since you made a commitment, and more on what images you’ll make when all of your gear arrives! As with cars and many other things, what works for you is what really counts.

[Califmike33]

The opinions are not going to change my mind I've already committed to the camera I will judge for myself whether it's for me or not.


I like to hear people's takes opinions on things and I'm just looking for user experience it's not going to sway me because I've already purchased the camera I just want people to step forward and have used this camera and tell me what they like and don't like about it.

[Califmike33]

Guilty, as charged.

Add me to the list of Horseman lovers, and Sinar f "haters" :)

It's not that there's anything "wrong" with the Sinar f series, it's just that they're stripped down utilitarian machines that are completely uninspiring. It's like comparing a Toyota Yaris to a Lexus. Will they both get ya where ya wanna go? Yep, but if you have a choice, which one would you choose?

The Sinar f series was made to a price point. Back in the day, this was a viable option for a working pro who needed a second or third body for secondary use, or where there might be more risk of damage (fewer tears shed). A P series camera would set you back several grand, but an f was about 1/4 to 1/3 the price, and shared all the same accessories, so it made practical sense.

There is absolutely nothing "luxury" about a Sinar f series camera. The only geared movement is the rear focusing (front and rear focusing on f2). The rise and fall adjustment is awkward due to the dual post design below the frame. Everything else is basic friction lock and adjustment. It all works, but that's all there really is to say about it.

On the other hand, the Horseman L series feels "luxury". The rise/fall and lateral shift are all geared movements, and feel great. Although they're on the left side, they can be easily actuated with one hand. The geared focus is on the right, so focus is easy to manage for right handers. Swing and tilt are friction lock, but there's ball bearings in there to make it smoooooth as silk. These babies simply ooze luxury.

The Sinar f series is kinda like the Pentax K1000 when comparing to a Horseman L kinda like a Nikon F3. They both take pictures fine.

The good news is that a lot of your Sinar f2 parts can be used on your Horseman after you realize your folly. ;)

Large format camera pricing is all over the map these days, so you're better off looking for a wider range of cameras instead of focusing on just one. There are very good deals to be found on Sinar P's and Normas, Cambos, Horseman, Toyos, Wistas, Linhofs, and many others. I've seen people asking ridiculous prices for Sinar f cameras because of the Sinar name. These are really bottom tier cameras that deserve bottom tier pricing. The good news is that the top tier cameras now cost barely more than the bottom tier stuff, so if you don't limit yourself you'll definitely find a good deal out there.

Absolutely love it love the feedback.

[Califmike33]

So Sinar F lens boards fit Horseman L Cameras ? So why are these two cameras so interchangeable with each other when they're completely separate companies?

[Oren Grad]

So Sinar F lens boards fit Horseman L Cameras ? So why are these two cameras so interchangeable with each other when they're completely separate companies?

Many companies, not just Horseman, have chosen the Sinar lensboard type for their bigger view cameras. Similarly, many smaller view cameras from various companies accept Technika lensboards. There's an obvious benefit to the user from having boards interchangeable across camera brands rather than having every brand use a proprietary board.

[Bernice Loui]

Realized this verbiage is destructive, non-constructive, mis-leading_mis-information, deceptive and more rooted in tribalism. Taking sides while myopically blind is key to life in one's personal Golden Skinner Box.

~Stop It..
Remember this:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)

This was your post from July 25, 2021:
"Your "first" 4x5 camera should be one that actually works properly. These esoteric discussions about the perfect classic camera are not very useful for practical purposes. Unless you're extremely lucky, an old camera is likely to be full of pinholes in the bellows, and will have some minor to major mechanical issues. If you know what to look for, and how to repair it, then fine and dandy. If not, you could be in for a very expensive and frustrating experience.

Sinars were extremely popular in their day, but that day has long gone. If you go to the B&H website and type in a search for Sinar, you'll get 10 items, all of them third party adapters. Good luck finding a new Sinar bellows. Sure, you can get a new bellows from England, or China, but you might have to put it on the frames yourself, or send the old frames to the supplier. Expect to pay at least $300, and wait a few months, in order to get someone else to do the whole thing. If you're handy, you could also build a bellows yourself, or spend time learning and doing your own repairs. That's great if you like to do it, but not so great if you don't.

If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options. One option is to buy something new. Intrepid and Standard Cameras are two inexpensive versions, and there are a few expensive options from Chamonix and others. A second option is to buy a used outfit from a "reliable and trustworthy" seller who can guarantee that the camera, lens, and accessories are in proper working order. Like for everything, there's no free lunch."

~~Much Verbiage later, post# 56:

"O.K., I have to admit I've been completely wrong on this issue. i sincerely bow to your superior knowledge and sage advice.

There's no question that Sinars truly are virtually indestructible. Possibly even anointed by a higher being.

So, head on over to eBay or Google and snap up your own Norma for $250 (or preferably less).

What could possibly go wrong? Nothing, apparently.

Silly me. I'm hoping it was just a temporary lapse of reason. "


Now, you're wanting to repeat this total waste of verbiage and all, If there is any constructive, helpful, useful, resourceful that can be added, share them properly. Otherwise, it is no more than combative and extremely destructive Tribalism with zero "winners".. And life and living is zero about winning..


Bernice




Guilty, as charged.

Add me to the list of Horseman lovers, and Sinar f "haters" :)

It's not that there's anything "wrong" with the Sinar f series, it's just that they're stripped down utilitarian machines that are completely uninspiring. It's like comparing a Toyota Yaris to a Lexus. Will they both get ya where ya wanna go? Yep, but if you have a choice, which one would you choose?

The Sinar f series was made to a price point. Back in the day, this was a viable option for a working pro who needed a second or third body for secondary use, or where there might be more risk of damage (fewer tears shed). A P series camera would set you back several grand, but an f was about 1/4 to 1/3 the price, and shared all the same accessories, so it made practical sense.

There is absolutely nothing "luxury" about a Sinar f series camera. The only geared movement is the rear focusing (front and rear focusing on f2). The rise and fall adjustment is awkward due to the dual post design below the frame. Everything else is basic friction lock and adjustment. It all works, but that's all there really is to say about it.

On the other hand, the Horseman L series feels "luxury". The rise/fall and lateral shift are all geared movements, and feel great. Although they're on the left side, they can be easily actuated with one hand. The geared focus is on the right, so focus is easy to manage for right handers. Swing and tilt are friction lock, but there's ball bearings in there to make it smoooooth as silk. These babies simply ooze luxury.

The Sinar f series is kinda like the Pentax K1000 when comparing to a Horseman L kinda like a Nikon F3. They both take pictures fine.

The good news is that a lot of your Sinar f2 parts can be used on your Horseman after you realize your folly. ;)

Large format camera pricing is all over the map these days, so you're better off looking for a wider range of cameras instead of focusing on just one. There are very good deals to be found on Sinar P's and Normas, Cambos, Horseman, Toyos, Wistas, Linhofs, and many others. I've seen people asking ridiculous prices for Sinar f cameras because of the Sinar name. These are really bottom tier cameras that deserve bottom tier pricing. The good news is that the top tier cameras now cost barely more than the bottom tier stuff, so if you don't limit yourself you'll definitely find a good deal out there.

[Tin Can]

I have new not used yet, Intrepid 8X10 MK III that uses SINAR LB

I also have installed Horseman frames on a few bigger cameras, so I can use SINAR board AND shutter

My 50's Linhof Studio bodies have 9" lensboards, so large Packard Shutter with sync are built inside

more...

[sharktooth]

As Oren says, compatibility is better for everyone.

Horseman was actually very smart. By making many of the key components (boards, bellows, backs) compatible with Sinar, they are able to easily market their cameras to potential Sinar buyers. If you were heavily invested in a Sinar P system, and you were looking for a lower cost secondary option, then the Horseman L would be an ideal choice. It sold at a significantly lower cost than a Sinar P, but still had excellent features and quality. A way better secondary option than the lowly f series.

Non compatibility is a disease of the modern era. The best example is proprietary lithium batteries. The useful life of modern equipment is limited by the availability of these stupid proprietary batteries. Those early digital cameras that quickly replaced all these lovely large format cameras, are all now rendered useless due to lack of batteries and/or power supplies. Stuff that uses compatible AA's or LR44, are all still ticking along nicely, thank you very much.

[sharktooth]

Realized this verbiage is destructive, non-constructive, mis-leading_mis-information, deceptive and more rooted in tribalism. Taking sides while myopically blind is key to life in one's personal Golden Skinner Box.

~Stop It..
Remember this:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)

This was your post from July 25, 2021:
"Your "first" 4x5 camera should be one that actually works properly. These esoteric discussions about the perfect classic camera are not very useful for practical purposes. Unless you're extremely lucky, an old camera is likely to be full of pinholes in the bellows, and will have some minor to major mechanical issues. If you know what to look for, and how to repair it, then fine and dandy. If not, you could be in for a very expensive and frustrating experience.

Sinars were extremely popular in their day, but that day has long gone. If you go to the B&H website and type in a search for Sinar, you'll get 10 items, all of them third party adapters. Good luck finding a new Sinar bellows. Sure, you can get a new bellows from England, or China, but you might have to put it on the frames yourself, or send the old frames to the supplier. Expect to pay at least $300, and wait a few months, in order to get someone else to do the whole thing. If you're handy, you could also build a bellows yourself, or spend time learning and doing your own repairs. That's great if you like to do it, but not so great if you don't.

If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options. One option is to buy something new. Intrepid and Standard Cameras are two inexpensive versions, and there are a few expensive options from Chamonix and others. A second option is to buy a used outfit from a "reliable and trustworthy" seller who can guarantee that the camera, lens, and accessories are in proper working order. Like for everything, there's no free lunch."

~~Much Verbiage later, post# 56:

"O.K., I have to admit I've been completely wrong on this issue. i sincerely bow to your superior knowledge and sage advice.

There's no question that Sinars truly are virtually indestructible. Possibly even anointed by a higher being.

So, head on over to eBay or Google and snap up your own Norma for $250 (or preferably less).

What could possibly go wrong? Nothing, apparently.

Silly me. I'm hoping it was just a temporary lapse of reason. "


Now, you're wanting to repeat this total waste of verbiage and all, If there is any constructive, helpful, useful, resourceful that can be added, share them properly. Otherwise, it is no more than combative and extremely destructive Tribalism with zero "winners".. And life and living is zero about winning..


Bernice

Oopsie. Looks like I've agitated the Sinar Moral Majority .... again :D

Obviously, I was wrong ... again, and sincerely apologize. (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

[Bernice Loui]

I'll bit just this once...

This was precisely why the adventure into the Horseman L series, the fantasy of compatibility and interchangeability with Sinar Norma/F/F+/F1/F2/P/P2/X and... yes, the lens boards, bellows, ground glass with film holder assembly does interchange and directly fit properly between Horseman L series and Sinar.. That is about all. The Sinar shutter does NOT fit/work properly on the Horseman L series, none of the other Sinar system modules interchange at alll severely limiting the interchangeability and usefulness of having a Horseman L series with the modular Sinar system. Until the image maker has pressed any view camera to extremes, the modularity of the Sinar System can never be appreciated in any way.

Yes, the Horseman L series has all those mechanical niceties and such, once greater than typical view camera demands are put on the Horseman L series, it simply comes up short in too many ways.

This is why all that Horseman L series stuff is mostly gone.. Still have a rare auxiliary standard and short rail that needs a home.. After those bits, it's all gone and done. Never looking back.. As for the "lowly" Sinar F, it's modules are simply incorporated into the much greater whole of the Sinar system as needed as all these modules are interchangeable and can be applied as needed. Something that cannot be done in the same way with the Horseman L series..


Bernice




Horseman was actually very smart. By making many of the key components (boards, bellows, backs) compatible with Sinar, they are able to easily market their cameras to potential Sinar buyers. If you were heavily invested in a Sinar P system, and you were looking for a lower cost secondary option, then the Horseman L would be an ideal choice. It sold at a significantly lower cost than a Sinar P, but still had excellent features and quality. A way better secondary option than the lowly f series.

[BrianShaw]

I see where you’re coming from, @tooth, but some of that actually makes sense. One of the “problems “ we seem to see in these kind of discussions is rooted in this statement, “If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options.” Some folks like to think, and talk, and analyze, and think some more before (and after) deciding on what to buy. I’ve been in this Sinar v Horsemen v Cambo discussion sine 1985 with my younger brother. I bought a Cambo and have used it ever since. He’s still analyzing the options. Different folks think differently… in both how they do their research and how they give advise. It’s all good; it all works out in the end.

[Daniel Unkefer]

California Mike,

The Sinar F series has several at the time patented design features. Angle Tilt/Swing Calculator keyed to ground glass markings. Also a Depth of Field Calculator. You might want to learn how to use these camera features, they may become benefits to you. Sinar even sold a book to facilitate learning to use the features. It is called "Photo Know How" by Carl Koch and I bought it and completed the course decades ago. All at once everything "clicked". Recommended reading

EDIT: Here is a good copy:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185487577541?epid=1801457387&hash=item2b2febd1c5:g:HrcAAOSwsX1iwpLe&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoLqqiWv9Yp%2FdfMRmjYKJ2b1cFVkD1wSQ4ckuQVZVsWCEyzh%2FakeDRdKyBVuLvDEpHq8%2FhF59b9hNYWn9Wg%2Fig0AkEj1j5BV7LlkEoXHSUqa%2BRdg1fFL4he%2FykgyEX%2FUTXkdJvqGVzn%2FcX52s6cWFjrtgH1hIsMCaAhGH8pVTjUHj5iS7oc5YynTSOm7Pd0RsGLg5xzZTYh0yknnUO2FBOj0%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR97U6rGgYQ

Just reading this stuff is NOT the same as setting up and completing each exercise. Learning by DOING

[Bernice Loui]

Not just Cambo, Linhof, Toyo, Omega, Inka and countless others designed and produced absolutely GOOD and viable view cameras..
it really comes down to image making goals and how well any given camera can fully and properly support a lens choice to achieve the required image goals..

Not about destructive Tribalism ala Nikon -vs- Canon and ... Meh.


Bernice



I see where you’re coming from, @tooth, but some of that actually makes sense. One of the “problems “ we seem to see in these kind of discussions is rooted in this statement, “If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options.” Some folks like to think, and talk, and analyze, and think some more before (and after) deciding on what to buy. I’ve been in this Sinar v Horsemen v Cambo discussion sine 1985 with my younger brother. I bought a Cambo and have used it ever since. He’s still analyzing the options. Different folks think differently… in both how they do their research and how they give advise. It’s all good; it all works out in the end.

[Califmike33]

California Mike,

The Sinar F series has several at the time patented design features. Angle Tilt/Swing Calculator keyed to ground glass markings. Also a Depth of Field Calculator. You might want to learn how to use these camera features, they may become benefits to you. Sinar even sold a book to facilitate learning to use the features. It is called "Photo Know How" by Carl Koch and I bought it and completed the course decades ago. All at once everything "clicked". Recommended reading

EDIT: Here is a good copy:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185487577541?epid=1801457387&hash=item2b2febd1c5:g:HrcAAOSwsX1iwpLe&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoLqqiWv9Yp%2FdfMRmjYKJ2b1cFVkD1wSQ4ckuQVZVsWCEyzh%2FakeDRdKyBVuLvDEpHq8%2FhF59b9hNYWn9Wg%2Fig0AkEj1j5BV7LlkEoXHSUqa%2BRdg1fFL4he%2FykgyEX%2FUTXkdJvqGVzn%2FcX52s6cWFjrtgH1hIsMCaAhGH8pVTjUHj5iS7oc5YynTSOm7Pd0RsGLg5xzZTYh0yknnUO2FBOj0%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR97U6rGgYQ

Just reading this stuff is NOT the same as setting up and completing each exercise. Learning by DOING

Thankyou David for that link.

[LabRat]

I'll add about Horseman that the knobs are weak and hollow, and will break over time... But filling the hollow inside with a filler like JB Weld epoxy before they break should help them last for the long (and short) haul...

A pro partner of mine used a L-45 bought new, and not long after, had one of the long rail levers crumble, but I brought them to a machinist and he made a couple of solid aluminium ones that will last forever...

Steve K

[Mark Sampson]

I'm sure that the Horseman system is a fine one... I don't care for people dissing other camera systems in favor of it though. Reminds me of high school, where it was Pentax v. Minolta v. Konica, or whatever. The fact is that these top-line view cameras were made for demanding professionals, and had to deliver repeatedly under heavy deadline pressure.
Full disclosure: I used a 4x5 Sinar F2 on the job for maybe 15 years. It was a pleasure to use and never let me down.
Also worth noting; our own Mr. Kirk Gittings used a basic, "cheap", Calumet CC-402 4x5 to make his fine architectural photographs for many years. A portfolio that any of us would be proud to have achieved!

[sharktooth]

When the OP gets his f2 I'm hoping he can check his to find out where they hid the magical pixie dust. I've been searching all over for it on mine, but so far it's eluded me. If I could only find just a little bit of it to sprinkle on my poor Horseman .... sigh. :)