Linhof Branded Prontor-S shutter mystery...

[Embdude]

Anyone familiar with Linhof using a chrome Linhof branded Prontor-S shutter on the Technika III 4x5 around 1950?

1950 was the first year chrome Linhof branded shutters appeared, and I have only ever seen them done in Compur shutters until now...

Recently I saw a 90mm Angulon in a Linhof labeled Prontor shutter.

It is in chrome and Linhof changed to black paint with the 1963 intro of the 4x5 V.

The Angulon SN dates it to 1950-51.

I searched around and found another Angulon in the same style shutter. So it seems to be legitimate.

I cant find any official Linhof reference to Prontor shutters until the mid 1970’s when Linhof began using the Prontor Electric shutters.

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[Mark Sampson]

Germany was still recovering from WWII in 1950, there were probably "supply-chain issues", and Linhof likely used what they could find.

[Embdude]

Well the plot thickens a little bit... I have spotted Prontor II shutters (Nearly identical model that the S replaced) on late 1940's Technikas with the 90mm Angulon. So for whatever reason from 1948-51 Linhof appears to have used both Compur and Prontor shutters for the 90mm Angulon lens...

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[jnantz]

people have been re-shuttering lenses since dry plates were invented (and shutters were actually needed).
my poor but educated guess is that this lens (that isn't a linhof select lens) was remounted in some shutter that was cobbled together by
a repair tech from spare parts he or she had lying around probably not so long ago.

[Embdude]

Germany was still recovering from WWII in 1950, there were probably "supply-chain issues", and Linhof likely used what they could find.

Yep it would appear Prontor stepped in to cover the size 0 shutter production in 1949 & 1950

[Embdude]

people have been re-shuttering lenses since dry plates were invented (and shutters were actually needed).
my poor but educated guess is that this lens (that isn't a linhof select lens) was remounted in some shutter that was cobbled together by
a repair tech from spare parts he or she had lying around probably not so long ago.

That is what I thought at first myself but after finding about 10 examples of the LINHOF emblazoned Prontor-S and also finding several prontor II shutters on the 1949 vintage cameras I am more inclined to believe Prontor did in fact step in to cover size 0 shutters from 1949-1950.

[Embdude]

Also identified another little nugget, based on lens serial numbers I have determined that the first year or so of the chrome Linhof emblazoned shutters (1950-51) the text and trim lines were in black. By 1953 the LINHOF text was in red up till the style changed from chrome to black in 1963…

The Prontors all have black text and trim and the Angulons in Compur 0 appear to only be in red text. I have found larger Compur shutters in black text but not the Compur 0 for the Angulon, so it would seem Prontor took over during these years rather than competed with the Compur 0.

[Paul Ewins]

The Linhof specific branding on Schneider lenses, i.e. Technika-Angulon or Technika-Symmar didn't start until mid 1956, so there is no reason why these couldn't have been cells supplied by Schneider and placed in the shutter by Linhof, or the shutters supplied by Linhof to Schneider. The production notes for both lenses have no extra information so it was probably just a part of a batch. Prior to 1956 the only things marked as being produced specifically for Linhof are the Press-Xenar and a universal viewfinder.

[Embdude]

The Linhof specific branding on Schneider lenses, i.e. Technika-Angulon or Technika-Symmar didn't start until mid 1956, so there is no reason why these couldn't have been cells supplied by Schneider and placed in the shutter by Linhof, or the shutters supplied by Linhof to Schneider. The production notes for both lenses have no extra information so it was probably just a part of a batch. Prior to 1956 the only things marked as being produced specifically for Linhof are the Press-Xenar and a universal viewfinder.

Thanks Paul, you seem to have much more specifics than I do about the Schneider lenses. I have based my research off the sn# chart in the original post so if the dates are off on that so is my research.

1957 was the Linhof 70th anniversary, and as was common for Linhof, new models were introduced and others were updated. The Technika III was retired and the Technika IV series began. The IV 4x5 was a new design, the 5x7 & 6x9 model saw minor improvements and bold cosmetic changes. This is when the name TECHNIKA (in red block letters) began appearing in the lens beauty rings alongside the the make and model.

Prior to 1957 the Linhof script logo was engraved in red on the Schneider supplied lenses (this came later for Zeiss and Voigtlander and even later for Rodenstock). The red script logo appears on the Tele Xenar first c1951 and later for the Xenar and Angulon types c1953 (not sure about the Xenotars).

The chrome Compur & Prontor shutters emblazoned with LINHOF arrived in 1950 and were originally in black letters for about a year and then red.(only black for the prontors and only with the 90 Angulon, the Prontor were gone by 1952) I have not found the red script logo on any of the lenses in black text type shutters.

1957 was a big year for Linhof and lenses were commissioned from Zeiss, Voigtlander, Rodenstock and most likely Schneider. I would be very interested to know which lenses were specifically commissioned by Linhof if you have that info handy.

Here are a few images to illustrate the info I gave:

A good image of the LINHOF emblazoned shutter from a 1950 Linhof Press flyer... 233235

A 1952 Tele Xenar lens 3145538 with the engraved script logo. The larger lenses did not get chrome LINHOF emblazoned shutters at first, and the really big 5x7 lenses remained in stock compound shutters for a decade or two. 233236

A 1953 Tele Xenar lens 3465536 with the engraved script in a red lettered Compur shutter. 233237

A 1958 Xenar with the TECHNIKA brand name in the beauty ring. 233238

[Embdude]

On cue KEH has a 90 Angulon with black paint letters for sale… so either the Linhof labeled Prontor shutter had a very short life (1950 if even a whole year) or both companies were supplying the size 0 shutters at the same time.

https://www.keh.com/shop/90-f6-8-ang-linhof-comp-rapid-b-35-mt-4x5-lens-1.html

2500516 sn# puts it at first half of 1951…

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[David Lindquist]

On cue KEH has a 90 Angulon with black paint letters for sale… so either the Linhof labeled copal shutter had a very short life (1950 if even a whole year) or both companies were supplying the size 0 shutters at the same time.

https://www.keh.com/shop/90-f6-8-ang-linhof-comp-rapid-b-35-mt-4x5-lens-1.html

2500516 sn# puts it at first half of 1951…

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You probably want to edit ..."Linhof labeled copal shutter"... to, from the context, ..."Linhof labeled Prontor shutter"...

Very interesting thread by the way. I wonder when Linhof stopped putting their front plate on their selected lenses. And there were other practices that came and went like engraving "TECHNIKA" in red on the front bezel.

David

[Embdude]

You probably want to edit ..."Linhof labeled copal shutter"... to, from the context, ..."Linhof labeled Prontor shutter"...

Very interesting thread by the way. I wonder when Linhof stopped putting their front plate on their selected lenses. And there were other practices that came and went like engraving "TECHNIKA" in red on the front bezel.

David

good catch I will go fix it, thanks

[Paul Ewins]

After looking again I should revise things slightly; the earliest examples of Technika labelled lenses I could find in the Schneider production lists date to 15 April 1955. That was a set of 5 prototype Technika-Componons: 1 x 180/5.6, 1 x 210/5.6, 1 x 105/4 and 2 x 80/4. The next set of prototypes was from 4 July 1956; a set of 3 105/2.8 Technika-Xenotars and then another batch of 10 105/2.8 Technika Xenotars on 13 August 1956. The first production batches arrived in November 1956 with a batch of 65/5.6 Technika-Angulons, followed in short order by 105/2.8 Technika-Xenotars, 47/8 Technika-Super-Angulons, 180/5.5 and 240/5.5 Technika-Tele-Artons and a batch of 105/5.6 Technika-Symmars.

[Embdude]

After looking again I should revise things slightly; the earliest examples of Technika labelled lenses I could find in the Schneider production lists date to 15 April 1955. That was a set of 5 prototype Technika-Componons: 1 x 180/5.6, 1 x 210/5.6, 1 x 105/4 and 2 x 80/4. The next set of prototypes was from 4 July 1956; a set of 3 105/2.8 Technika-Xenotars and then another batch of 10 105/2.8 Technika Xenotars on 13 August 1956. The first production batches arrived in November 1956 with a batch of 65/5.6 Technika-Angulons, followed in short order by 105/2.8 Technika-Xenotars, 47/8 Technika-Super-Angulons, 180/5.5 and 240/5.5 Technika-Tele-Artons and a batch of 105/5.6 Technika-Symmars.

Oh wow Paul that is fantastic info! Thanks.

From what I have seen the TECHNIKA labels show up about 1957 so it is nice to see that in 1955 it began for the prototypes. The TECHNIKA label on the lens seems to end about 1974 a couple of years after the Master Technika was introduced in 1972. This also coincides with most lens manufactures eliminating the chrome external ring, internal beauty ring, and placing the engraving around the front rim of the lens. I have seen a few 1970's Rodenstock lenses with the external TECHNIKA but not a Schneider (except for some of the chrome ring Tele models which never had internal beauty rings).

The Linhof script logo was done in house in the Linhof Munich factory after the lens cells passed Linhof's quality control. This practice begins in 1950 or 51 and continues until about 2000. (I have not seen a lens with the engraved script with a SN later than 1999). The TECHNIKA labeled lenses often don't have the engraved script but some do, I have not determined a pattern to this yet but it is obviously redundant.

By 1950 except for the Prontor shutters on the 90mm Angulon's all Linhof lenses were in Compur shutters. This continued until 1980 when Compur and Copal appear in the Linhof catalog. In 1983 Prontor is back with the Electronic and Professional shutters. I don't know the timeline but I think the 3 shutter companies consolidated and in the end there was only compur which is now gone...

[Embdude]

This is the first time I see marketing material with the TECHNIKA label lenses. The TECHNIKA beauty ring labels must have come directly from Schneider, while the Linhof Script on the side of the front cell was done after delivery to Linhof.

Schneider Technika Lenses From: 1957 Linhof 70 Years of Service to Photography Booklet

(Note: the two lenses in this ad show the smallest shutter and a larger compound shutter, both which did not receive LINHOF emblazoned Compur Shutters, everything in between did.)

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[Embdude]

1957 Linhof 70 Years of Service to Photography Booklet:

"Each single lens that arrives in the plant has to go
through the optical test room. Only lenses which have
been thoroughly tested and found immaculate are
engraved with the name of LINHOF on their front
element mount. Thus each photographer purchases-
ing LINHOF equipment has the guarantee to obtain
factory-approved lenses of superior quality."

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[Paul Ewins]

FWIW, the batch sizes in this period were usually 5% over a round number i.e. 105 instead of 100 or 210 instead of 200, so at a guess this was the expected maximum reject rate.

[Embdude]

Bob Salomon posted back in 1999 about the "Linhof Select" process back in 1999 in this thread -
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?767-Linhof-tested-and-selected-Schneider-and-Rodenstock

Obviously far more advanced testing than what was capable with film based tests ala the 1957 photo above...

Bob mentions Schneider, Rodenstock, and Nikon in the thread but I don't think any Nikon lenses were "Linhof Select" with the linhof logo engraved. I could be wrong on this tho...

EDIT- on another thread Bob Salomon stated "Linhof also tested the other lenses that they sold like T-Nikkor Tele lenses (the only Nikon made lenses that they sold) as well as the Lenses from Zeiss and others when they were being manufactured." So I will have to look into this and see if I can find a Linhof engraved Nikon Tele...

[Embdude]

FWIW, the batch sizes in this period were usually 5% over a round number i.e. 105 instead of 100 or 210 instead of 200, so at a guess this was the expected maximum reject rate.

That is a small rejection rate, through antidotal evidence it has been suggested that much of the rejections in later years were for cosmetics that could be corrected and returned to Linhof for evaluation.

[Embdude]

Found some more interesting Prontor - Linhof links...

This time in the 1951 product announcement for the all new Technika III 6x9 camera. The 180mm lens pictured alongside the camera is in a Prontor 0 shutter. This is the only occurrence I have found with a Prontor shutter and the 6x9 Technika III. By the time the camera hit dealer shelves in 1952 all references were to the Compur 0 shutters.

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