More 510-Pyro Adventures!

[Andrew O'Neill]

https://youtu.be/_ldwmoiu6b4

[koraks]

And as Andy was working on this, it so happened I was doing more or less the same...

https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/to-stain-or-not-to-stain-acid-and-pyro-developers/

[Tin Can]

Read completely both

I prefer Andy

No constant anger




And as Andy was working on this, it so happened I was doing more or less the same...

https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/to-stain-or-not-to-stain-acid-and-pyro-developers/

[Tin Can]

I tried PYRO 510 7 years ago

I dislike thick goo, very hard to measure accurately

and messy

goo bad

[koraks]

Read completely both

I prefer Andy

No constant anger

:confused:

Didn't realize it was a contest.
Also not sure what 'anger' you read. Projection?

[darr]

Andy,
I cannot thank you enough for this video. I had an encounter with a; well, let's call him a bully that tried to take me down over using acidic fixer with staining developers.
Even though I posted three examples of negatives with beautiful stains from pyro HD & 510 fixed with an acidic fixer (one negative was ten years old), he still tried to make the 'myth' case.

Best to you,
Darr

[Alan9940]

I have used all manner of fixers--sodium thiosulfate-based F-24, Kodak Fixer, Zone VI Fixer (which I'm pretty sure was F-24), Ilford Rapid Fix, Sprint Fixer, PF TF-4 and TF-5, and others that I can't recall at the moment--with stained negatives from a number of staining formulas over many years and I've never noticed any issue with the stain.

Thank you, Andy, for finally (and, hopefully) putting this myth to rest!

[Michael R]

Funny thing is, all one needs to do to avoid the whole issue is go back to the originator of all the “modern” staining developers - John Wimberley. He started the “pyro revival” in the late 1970s, and has always used Ilford Rapid Fixer. Even Hutchings, who’s PMK was based on Wimberley’s developer, and who’s Book of Pyro is full of classic pyro hyperbole and questionable information, used a plain old acid fixer. Etc.

The alkaline process thing has largely been promulgated by the ‘Cookbook guys, and one of those guys would appear to have a stake in it (TF-4 anybody?), so, you know...($)


Andy,
I cannot thank you enough for this video. I had an encounter with a; well, let's call him a bully that tried to take me down over using acidic fixer with staining developers.
Even though I posted three examples of negatives with beautiful stains from pyro HD & 510 fixed with an acidic fixer (one negative was ten years old), he still tried to make the 'myth' case.

Best to you,
Darr

[Alan9940]

Even Hutchings, who’s PMK was based on Wimberley’s developer, and who’s Book of Pyro is full of classic pyro hyperbole and questionable information, used a plain old acid fixer.

Mr. Hutchings used F-24 (an acid fixer)...it's right in his book.

[darr]

Funny thing is, all one needs to do to avoid the whole issue is go back to the originator of all the “modern” staining developers - John Wimberley. He started the “pyro revival” in the late 1970s, and has always used Ilford Rapid Fixer. Even Hutchings, who’s PMK was based on Wimberley’s developer, and who’s Book of Pyro is full of classic pyro hyperbole and questionable information, used a plain old acid fixer. Etc.

The alkaline process thing has largely been promulgated by the ‘Cookbook guys, and one of those guys would appear to have a stake in it (TF-4 anybody?), so, you know...($)

Thank you, Michael.
You make a lot of sense.

[Mark Sampson]

I've found both TF-4 and TF-5 to be excellent fixers for both paper and film (including staining developers).
And if you've actually devised an improved product, why not promote it?
As for "so, you know...($)", I doubt that any new b/w photo chemistry will make the patent-holder wealthy.
The simple fact is, all the b/w fixers will do the job. On the front page of this site is an article titled "Confessions of a Magic Bullet Chaser".
Anyone reading tis thread should check it out.

[Michael R]

I didn’t mean TF-4 is bad. It’s fine. I wouldn’t call it improved though. It’s an alkaline rapid fixer.


I've found both TF-4 and TF-5 to be excellent fixers for both paper and film (including staining developers).
And if you've actually devised an improved product, why not promote it?
As for "so, you know...($)", I doubt that any new b/w photo chemistry will make the patent-holder wealthy.
The simple fact is, all the b/w fixers will do the job. On the front page of this site is an article titled "Confessions of a Magic Bullet Chaser".
Anyone reading tis thread should check it out.

[esearing]

Good stuff. I like TF5 because it has less odor and has a great shelf life.

One other experiment you might try - Bleach a PRINT completely and redevelop with 510 (normal dilution) to see what color cast you get in the blacks and if there is any paper staining. I would guess a reddish brown just based on the bleached negative. I get an olive-black cast using Pyrocat-M as second pass developer.

[CreationBear]

Eric, that reminds me: what’s your dilution for 510 when you’re developing for your salt prints? I get the impression that 510 is roughly twice as energetic as Pyrocat HD—would 1:1:100 be in the neighborhood?

At any rate, I did catch Andy’s last few YT offerings—the last a manful performance, especially.;)

[John Layton]

....but then - there lurks the truly evil specter of full strength acid stop bath before the (acid) fix...bwahahaha! :eek:

[esearing]

Eric, that reminds me: what’s your dilution for 510 when you’re developing for your salt prints? I get the impression that 510 is roughly twice as energetic as Pyrocat HD—would 1:1:100 be in the neighborhood?

At any rate, I did catch Andy’s last few YT offerings—the last a manful performance, especially.;)

I have not tried 510. For Pyrocat M I am beginning to extend my time for 5x12 negatives to get slightly more contrast. Subjective to scene contrasts.

[CreationBear]

No worries, the only reason it’s on my radar is a “prepping” scenario in case all flavors of Pyrocat become unavailable during the Zombie Apocalypse.;). Otherwise I’ll look forward to following your POP adventures.

[interneg]

Funny thing is, all one needs to do to avoid the whole issue is go back to the originator of all the “modern” staining developers - John Wimberley. He started the “pyro revival” in the late 1970s, and has always used Ilford Rapid Fixer. Even Hutchings, who’s PMK was based on Wimberley’s developer, and who’s Book of Pyro is full of classic pyro hyperbole and questionable information, used a plain old acid fixer. Etc.

The alkaline process thing has largely been promulgated by the ‘Cookbook guys, and one of those guys would appear to have a stake in it (TF-4 anybody?), so, you know...($)

And TF-5 is a near neutral rapid fix - otherwise to be commonly found in the marketplace as 'odourless' rapid fix or C-41/ E-6 fix - Ron Mowrey essentially said as much (and was involved as a consultant in its formulation). C-41 fix is incredibly effective at getting waste dyes out of film - but that's a whole different issue from the formation of questionably stable couplers/ 'stains' in poorly thought out developers that would have a better chance at delivering higher definition/ image content transmission capacity if they understood development inhibition effects & the critical relationship to developer solvency with most emulsions for the last 60+ years...

[koraks]

One other experiment you might try - Bleach a PRINT completely and redevelop with 510 (normal dilution) to see what color cast you get in the blacks and if there is any paper staining. I would guess a reddish brown just based on the bleached negative. I get an olive-black cast using Pyrocat-M as second pass developer.
The surprising thing is if you bleach back a Pyrocat negative, the stain image turns out to be orange. Whereas I share your experience that redeveloping a bleached back print in it gives an olive-brown stain.
Since the stain image from a 510 pyro developed negative isn't all that different from a pyrocat one, my money is on a print treated the same way with 510 will also show the same olive tone.

[Michael R]

Indeed. On the general subject of contemporary staining developers, without getting into the details, I’d suggest people use Wimberley’s, PMK or Pyrocat (Sandy King at least made the effort to do some sensitometry and provide some data/evidence). The rest of the formulas out there are basically haphazard concoctions. Throwing some basic ingredients together and getting an image on film is quite trivial, but going beyond that takes a lot of work.


And TF-5 is a near neutral rapid fix - otherwise to be commonly found in the marketplace as 'odourless' rapid fix or C-41/ E-6 fix - Ron Mowrey essentially said as much (and was involved as a consultant in its formulation). C-41 fix is incredibly effective at getting waste dyes out of film - but that's a whole different issue from the formation of questionably stable couplers/ 'stains' in poorly thought out developers that would have a better chance at delivering higher definition/ image content transmission capacity if they understood development inhibition effects & the critical relationship to developer solvency with most emulsions for the last 60+ years...

[esearing]

The surprising thing is if you bleach back a Pyrocat negative, the stain image turns out to be orange. Whereas I share your experience that redeveloping a bleached back print in it gives an olive-brown stain.
Since the stain image from a 510 pyro developed negative isn't all that different from a pyrocat one, my money is on a print treated the same way with 510 will also show the same olive tone.

I have only bleached an under developed FP4+ negative once that had been developed with Pyrocat HD and that turned out to be a light pinkish tan - not orange. I redeveloped to try and intensify with fresh Pyrocat HD but didn't get much more than the original stain. Maybe it depends on film stock or the level of staining. The Olive tones for the print can be achieved using the IT-8 cachetol redevelopment too. I just like the slightly warmer tone of using the Pyrocat M. the redeveloped print is also sharper to my eye but that could be due to adjacent color shifts.

[koraks]

The orange tone I got by bleaching out the silver; i.e. entirely removing it, leaving no silver halide either. You can see an example on my blog post. Perhaps the with/without silver halide explains the difference in hue we saw?