Astragon 360mm f/4.5: What do I have here?

[gordi]

Hey all, I have come into a friend’s grandfather’s Sinar P 8x10 kit on indefinite loan, and have been curious about one of the lenses it came with. It actually came with several, but the rest are quite well documented. One lens it came with is an absolutely massive Astragon 360/4.5, and I can find absolutely zero evidence that Yamasaki ever made this lens, aside from, well, having one that says Y.O. Japan on the back. The only other lens I can find of these specs is the Universal Heliar 360/4.5, and looking at the groups I can remove off of this one, I think it might actually be a clone. I’ve played around with it a bit, it appears to have a massive image circle, and is quite sharp with some real excellent bokeh. Has anyone run into one of these/got more info?231512

[xkaes]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

[Daniel Unkefer]

WOW. Looks like a giganto Tessar type maybe? Bet it draws nicely. F4.5 might be a give away

[Dan Fromm]

To tell the difference between a Heliar type and a Tessar type, count reflections.

The Tessar front cell consists of two singlets, so has four air-glass interfaces and no glass-cement-glass interfaces. Four strong reflections, no weak reflections. The Tessar rear cell is a cemented doublet, so has two air-glass interfaces and one glass-cement-glass interface. Two strong reflections, one weak, which may be hard to discern.

The Heliar is a little more complex. One cell consists of a cemented doublet and a singlet, four strong reflections and one weak. The other cell is a cemented doublet. Which combination is in front varies with the lens model and maker. Voigtlaender seems to have put the doublet in front of the diaphragm, the doublet and singlet behind.

Arne Croell (see www.arnecroell.com/voigtlaender.pdf) reports "The Universal-Heliar (table 4) was a real soft focus lens, where the biconcave center element was moveable with a ring at the front of the lens to adjust the soft focus effect (fig. 5)." OP, if your lens is a Heliar type, does the biconcave singlet move?

Yamasaki made a 360/4.5 Tessar type. OP, it's hard to be sure, but I suspect that's what you have. Please count reflections etc. and report back.

[Bob Salomon]

If I remember properly that was a private label brand name of Sterling Howard.

[Mark Sawyer]

It's a big, fast Japanese-made Tessar. Few modern/coated Tessars were made of that size and speed, as they were too large to fit into any modern shutter, but Schneider made a few modern coated Xenar (Tessar) in these specs. Zeiss probably made a few too. But earlier uncoated Tessars like that were fairly common from Wollensak, Ilex, and others.

Should be a very nice lens.

[gordi]

Thanks for the info, Dan! Took a look earlier and it appears you’re right, the reflections per group match up to what you said about the Tessar design. Honestly, as soon as I wrote the original post I looked up the Universal Heliar and ruled it out just because this doesn’t have a floating element. I’m so used to Tessars being kind of a bland (but sharp) lens from small format stuff, but this huge thing sure seems to make some great images. I’m actually having a friend by later to run some test portraits with a few of the lenses I have, as I’d really love to compare and contrast between this, the Apo-Nikkors I have, and the 35” RDA.


To tell the difference between a Heliar type and a Tessar type, count reflections.

The Tessar front cell consists of two singlets, so has four air-glass interfaces and no glass-cement-glass interfaces. Four strong reflections, no weak reflections. The Tessar rear cell is a cemented doublet, so has two air-glass interfaces and one glass-cement-glass interface. Two strong reflections, one weak, which may be hard to discern.

The Heliar is a little more complex. One cell consists of a cemented doublet and a singlet, four strong reflections and one weak. The other cell is a cemented doublet. Which combination is in front varies with the lens model and maker. Voigtlaender seems to have put the doublet in front of the diaphragm, the doublet and singlet behind.

Arne Croell (see www.arnecroell.com/voigtlaender.pdf) reports "The Universal-Heliar (table 4) was a real soft focus lens, where the biconcave center element was moveable with a ring at the front of the lens to adjust the soft focus effect (fig. 5)." OP, if your lens is a Heliar type, does the biconcave singlet move?

Yamasaki made a 360/4.5 Tessar type. OP, it's hard to be sure, but I suspect that's what you have. Please count reflections etc. and report back.

[mhayashi]

A quick search gives me the following info.
https://alter.com/trademarks/astragon-72382183
https://archive.org/details/sim_popular-photography_1967-09_61_3/page/148/mode/2up?q=Sterling+Howard+astragon

231534

Tessar design, made by Y.O. that stands for Yamasaki Optical company, I believe.

[Bernice Loui]

Tessar -vs- APO nikkor, APO artar and ...
Depends on exposure aperture needed. Higher or lower contrast is also releative to image goals.

Likely discover the 360mm Yamasaki Astragon does good in to out of focus rendition at f4.5 to about f11. Smaller exposure apertures with majority of the image in percieved focus makes lesser differnce. The Astragon likely has a round iris which helps smooth in to out of focus rendition. Lens personality is likley to be similar to this 360mm f4.5 Schneider Xenar.
231564

There are many reasons why the Tessar design/formula has been in production for so many decades by so may lens brands.. The Tessar would have died out long ago if not for some image personalty that has kept it so very popular for foto images..

As for APO nikkor, APO artar (ala Red Dot), they are best at f16 to f45. Differnt lens for a differnt image goal/need. Neither is IMO better or lesser..

For comparasions, what might be the metric as the basis for comparison (color, B&W or ?).. and how might these comparisons be done?


Bernice






I’m so used to Tessars being kind of a bland (but sharp) lens from small format stuff, but this huge thing sure seems to make some great images. I’m actually having a friend by later to run some test portraits with a few of the lenses I have, as I’d really love to compare and contrast between this, the Apo-Nikkors I have, and the 35” RDA.

[gordi]

I was just going to have some friends sit in for portraits, I'm looking to compare out of focus rendition characteristics of everything I have just to have a good idea of what to bring along ahead of time when I drag the whole rig around, I'd like to find some shorter bellows/rails as well so I think the Astragon is going to be quite a go-to, but I just developed some frames of a friend sitting in for me on the RDA at f/22 the other night, next job is to scan em!


Tessar -vs- APO nikkor, APO artar and ...
Depends on exposure aperture needed. Higher or lower contrast is also releative to image goals.

Likely discover the 360mm Yamasaki Astragon does good in to out of focus rendition at f4.5 to about f11. Smaller exposure apertures with majority of the image in percieved focus makes lesser differnce. The Astragon likely has a round iris which helps smooth in to out of focus rendition. Lens personality is likley to be similar to this 360mm f4.5 Schneider Xenar.
231564

There are many reasons why the Tessar design/formula has been in production for so many decades by so may lens brands.. The Tessar would have died out long ago if not for some image personalty that has kept it so very popular for foto images..

As for APO nikkor, APO artar (ala Red Dot), they are best at f16 to f45. Differnt lens for a differnt image goal/need. Neither is IMO better or lesser..

For comparasions, what might be the metric as the basis for comparison (color, B&W or ?).. and how might these comparisons be done?


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

Camera appears to be a Sinar P with Sinar shutter..

The standard Sinar rail is about 12" long. Add on Sinar rails come in 6", 12" 18" as the most common varieties. To make this 8x10 outfit more compact to transport, use the standard 12" rail for the complete camera then add 6" rails as many as needed, or a single 12" rail, or again as many 6" with 12" rails in combo as needed. The 18" rail is a hassle to travel with unless there is a real need for a single rail that long.

Shorter bellows is often a liability instead of any advantage as the bellows simply packs down compressed. Often the need for more bellows length appears forcing and resulting in frustration with not enought..... bellows lenght.


Bernice




I'd like to find some shorter bellows/rails as well.

[Vaughn]

That's a bit of bellows for a portrait with a 35" lens!

[gordi]

It does have quite a bit of extension (and I think two of the 18” rails, too lazy to find a tape measure now) and I’ve played with the 35” RDA on it, unfortunately my lighting wasn’t good enough for a subject to sit still long enough at f/22 at night but thankfully I’m mostly shooting Fuji HR-U xray film so a couple wasted sheets isn’t a big deal. 231659 (OM-1 for scale for friends of mine who haven’t seen even a 4x5 speed before)

Also, the friend who inherited the kit stored it poorly and the bellows are creased real bad, but still light tight. I’ve had trouble locating Sinar P bellows that extend this much, even aftermarket ones. Is this the normal amount of draw on one of these or am I going to need something a bit more custom when I inevitably replace these?

[Mark Sampson]

For long extensions with a Sinar it's common to use an "intermediate standard" which attaches to the rail, and two sets of bellows. This method also helps to eliminate the "sagging bellows vignetting" problem.
That's quite a setup you have already- best of luck!

[Bob Salomon]

For long extensions with a Sinar it's common to use an "intermediate standard" which attaches to the rail, and two sets of bellows. This method also helps to eliminate the "sagging bellows vignetting" problem.
That's quite a setup you have already- best of luck!

And also a second tripod block to eliminate rail flexing.

[Bernice Loui]

Another way..

Sinar being a modular system, use one to as many aux or sinar standards (front or rear), bellows and rail as needed to produce camera and bellows extension as needed. This will stop the belllows sag from using two camera standards with a long bellows. Saggy bellows can produce problems of their own. Example below with a 30" APO ronar on a 5x7 Sinar.. Move the rig as needed to balance the weight of the rig over the Sinar rail clamp, this will significatly aid in camera stability and reduction in vibration sensitivity.
231703


Some long Sinar humor..
231704

231705

231706


As for replacement bellows, Sinar made several varaints for their 8x10 camera backs, Norma, meter back, non-meter back and... They are not interchangable as they are for 4x5 and 5x7. The 4x5 and 5x7 bellows are interchangable between Norma to the last version of P2 with no sensitivity to meter or non-meter back. If a replacement bellows is needed and the bellows frames are in good condition, have Custom Bellows in the UK make a replacement as needed. They can customize the bellows as needed.
http://www.custombellows.co.uk


Might consider strobe lighting to achieve an exposure aperture of f22 instead of constant lighting. This will likely require a few kilowatt/seconds (set up and light modifier dependent) of strobe power. Don't forget to add belows factor to the actual exposure aperture.. If the 360mm Astragon is used at an exposure aperture of say f8, the lighting requirements will change significantly. This is where the Sinar shutter's top speed of 1/60 could become an issue and where netrual density filters can be a really helpful friend..


Bernice




It does have quite a bit of extension (and I think two of the 18” rails, too lazy to find a tape measure now) and I’ve played with the 35” RDA on it, unfortunately my lighting wasn’t good enough for a subject to sit still long enough at f/22 at night but thankfully I’m mostly shooting Fuji HR-U xray film so a couple wasted sheets isn’t a big deal. 231659 (OM-1 for scale for friends of mine who haven’t seen even a 4x5 speed before)

Also, the friend who inherited the kit stored it poorly and the bellows are creased real bad, but still light tight. I’ve had trouble locating Sinar P bellows that extend this much, even aftermarket ones. Is this the normal amount of draw on one of these or am I going to need something a bit more custom when I inevitably replace these?