Gaoersi 4x5

[Warren Williams]

The 4x5 version used to be on e-bay frequently but not now. Does anyone know the web page of the factory to get some info. Does anyone have any experience using one? Thanks

[Hiro]

They are still on eBay. The way item names are spelled and listing under "Other 35mm SLR" make them hard to find by search.

search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZthkphotoQQhtZ-1 (http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZthkphotoQQhtZ-1)

I remeber seeing a website (mfr. or a rep.) but can't find it.

[Jerry Fusselman]

Well, I own a Gaoersi 4x5 shift camera, but it is not yet complete. I might give a full review later, after I reach my conclusions, but I will mention here what I think about it so far. In brief, I can recommend the camera, for it has many fine qualities. However, it is not easy for me to communicate in English with the sellers. I will soon be trying to discuss things with them in Chinese.

Sorry this response so long and disorganized. I am sure I will be more helpful about Gaoersi in another few months. (And by that time, Fotoman may have a shifting 4x5 camera. In contrast to my experiences with Gaoersi, my correspondence with Paul Droluk at Fotoman is A+ clear and helpful---and he listens so well!---but their 4x5 camera is not quite available yet.)

I will start with the good news. And really, most of the news is good. I got my Gaoersi for its capability of 25 mm of shift with focal lengths of 55 and 80 mm. Each lens requires its own little spacer (and shifter) piece connected to a helical focusing mount. The focusing throw is about 8mm. It appears that they can supply helical mounts for both #0 and #1 shutters, and I think larger shutters will work as well, if someone just enlarges the lens opening. The lens attaches just like the old Fotoman helical mounts---i.e., just like using a lens board. The FFD can be varied by maybe 8 mm or maybe 15 mm (I have not checked it carefully).

The camera works well, and you can shift in any of four directions (up, down, left, right) continuously and quickly between 0 and 25 mm, but you have have to use a dark slide to change the direction of shift.

The camera is hand holdable, but it is roughly twice the size and weight of a Vistashift camera. On the other hand, the longest lens to cover 612 and 4x5 on a Vistashift is 55 mm. (I own several Vistashifts, and will continue to use them when I need something lighter or wider than a Gaoersi.)

The Gaoersi 4x5 camera has terrific capabilities as far as I am concerned, but I found these problems too:

1. The spacer for the 55 mm Apo Grandagon allows shift only up to 18 mm when focusing anywhere near infinity, because the shift plate hits the rear element at about 18.5 mm. My main contact at Gaoersi apparently did not know this. In fact, they may well still not know, for the language problem continues. Ken Ruth fixed mine up so that I get the full 25 mm of shift with my Apo Grandagon. (With that much shift, coverage is a problem with 4x5, but not with 612.)

2. My 80 mm spacer has focus distances that are appropriate for a 75 mm lens. It is even marked with "75 mm." After I calibrated infinity focus, infinity is now just right, but I will have to recalibrate the focusing mount for the other distances (because it is an 80 mm lens, not a 75 mm lens).

3. They sold me what is supposed to be a 110 mm spacer, but it is really a 120/125/130 mm spacer, for I cannot get anywhere near infinity focus with a 110 mm lens. This spacer's minimum FFD is almost exactly 30 mm less than the minimum FFD of my successful 150 mm spacer, and with pictures I tried my best to convey this to my contacts at Gaoersi, but I get the feeling they think I screwed it up somehow---but they never actually said so, offering a refund instead. The people selling the Gaoersi equipment often know not was shipped, so I have to send jpegs to help discuss what is what. But they are fair, and I have an option to return this spacer. I might have someone in the USA rethread it to allow use with a 108, 110, or 111 mm lens. It seems so odd to me that they have nothing to handle 100, 105, 110, or 115 mm, but they can handle 90 mm and 150mm and 120 mm. On guy at Gaoersi says they can handle 100, 105, 110, and 115, but the other guy says no, they spacer would be no different from what I have now. My correspondence by email with them on this one issue has been incredibly confusing---probably to both of us.

4. The spacers for 110 mm and 150 mm that they sold me were described several times as "shift spacers," but the 110 and 150 mm spacers they sent me do not allow any shift. They were unable to tell me whether they had made a mistake. I had anticipated this potential nonshiftability before I decided to buy them, because elsewhere on ebay I read that beyond 90 mm, Gaoersi spacers do not shift. Maybe this particular mistake is another one that would not have happened had we corresponded in Chinese instead of English. The 150 mm spacer works perfectly---except for that lack of promised shift. Regardless, I am still very happy with the 150 mm spacer---especially considering the price (about $300).

5. I got no instructions whatsoever on how to calibrate infinity focus on the lens. I eventually found this technique for that: http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/cameras/Gaoersi/Page%204.htm ) My recommendation: Either have a professional do it for you, or do it yourself and be lucky or smart. Actually, I might be able to explain how to do it later, but currently I have a problem I cannot figure out---the focusing ring on my supposed 110 mm spacer is way too loose.

6. You must use the Gaoersi ground glass holder. The standard 4x5 Graflok ground glass holder will not fit a Gaoersi camera. I think all Graflok (a.k.a. standard or universal) film holders will fit a Gaoersi camera, and I think the Gaoersi ground glass holder fits everywhere a standard Graflok ground glass holder would fit, but it is not always a perfect fit, and I should recheck this. It appears to me that the sellers of Gaoersi products know nothing about these issues at all---but it might again be a language issue.

7. I have had a dickens of a time communicating with them in English. They always refuse to state what products that they have for sale, or maybe they just do not understand my kind of English. There is apparently no list anywhere of what accessories they have. Their information given over email and in ebay listings is often wrong. If you want a new accessory for your camera, you have to ask for it specifically, and they sometimes misinterpret your meaning. Several times, they have said "yes", later changed it to "no", and conversely! If you get answers to the same question from two different people at Gaoersi, they are likely to be different answers, and you may find, like I have, that it is difficult to figure out which answer is correct, even after several weeks. Nevertheless, they are honest, courteous, and fair people to deal with.

8. Several parts arrived with screws missing.

Because of these problems that I have had corresponding with them in English, I am about to retry my correspondence in Chinese (with the help of a nonphotographer friend).

In fairness to them, I sometimes think my Gaoersi is a different, earlier, and lighter Gaoersi than what is currently being sold. One of them may have hinted that way once, but I have been unable to get any sort of a confirmation.

Yet, the camera works extremely well: It allows very fast set up, accurate focusing, easy hand-holdablity, and quick lens changes. It can serve as a 4x5 or 612 shiftable point-and-shoot camera using your existing film holders. Best of all for my work, it allows quickly getting a well-focused shot in difficult situations, such as on a precarious cliff edge when I lack the guts to focus a view camera with my head under a dark cloth.

[Warren Williams]

Jerry

Thanks for your great complete comments. I would like to use the camera in urban areas where hand-holding us usually a must. Have you tried their optical finder?. I plan to start by using a 90mm and maybe go to a 65 - would the depth of field allow reasonable focusing of objects in the 30' to 20' range (i'm pretty good at gestimating). Also what is their folding hood - the picture on e-bay shows what appears to be a reflex hood.
Thanks

[Jerry Fusselman]

I have tried neither their finder nor their folding hood. I did not know whether or not they sold finders (How did you find out?), but I already have several finders that can work on my Gaoersi. I often use Voigtlaender finders, though they are in 3:2 aspect ratio. The latest Fotoman 4x5 finders sound like they are going to be terrific for use on a Gaoersi.

[GPS]

From all you say about the Gaoersi it seems like Fotoman is on the right track with their version too.This kind of cameras will see some future ahead of them. What a pity Gaoerski guys cannot get better with their English service

[Warren Williams]

Jerry -
The E-bay listing (7605007758) has one listed. Any idea of a website for the factory?

[Jerry Fusselman]

Warren,

No, sorry, but I have not Googled them for a few months, but if you find a good website, even if in Chinese, I would love to know about it.

The ebay listing you mention is unclear as to whether or not a shifting spacer is available for 90 mm, but I think it probably is. The listing seems to imply that a lens in the range 100--115 mm can be accommodated. That seller said yes to me a few weeks ago, but my Gaoersi supplier said that he is mistaken, and the answer is really no. At least that's my understanding of their English.

But the language problem is maybe no huge deal, because I think the camera is a bargain and it works very well. If you have a problem with it, I expect they will work with you to get your satisfaction even after the ebay 3-month period is over. If after reading every detail that I wrote in this thread you still are interested in the camera, then I expect you will be very happy with it, both when using the camera and when seeing your images.

I really don't know what camera, if any, compares to what it can do. Seriously, what other camera exists that supports the same range of focal lengths with interchangeable lenses and 25 mm shift (for many lenses) and focusing mounts that is capable of shooting 4x5 and 612? And this camera is surprisingly inexpensive for the high quality and unique capabilities, especially if you already have lenses, standard film holders, and finders for it.

By the way, I am having the ground glass replaced with Maxwell screens. Two Maxwell screens, actually, because I am getting the ultra-wide screen too.

[MJSfoto1956]

I will concur with the communication issues when corresponding with Gaoersi/Dayi. In my case I have been in weekly communication over the past month with "Paul". He is very courteous and has finally admitted that there are errors on their website (www.focus-dayi.com). They seem to have backtracked recently, now suggesting that the shift lens adapter is only available for 75mm-90mm. I think they are wrong here. I believe 65mm will work just fine with the shift adapter and 55mm can be made to work with the modifications indicated previously. The confusion remains however -- they have photographs of four types of lens adapters (two are shift and two are non-shift) yet they continue to list "part numbers" for only three of the lens adapters!!!

I have in mind to fix their website for them, for I really like the design of their cameras. To make it work, though, they would need to display proper "part numbers" (and better descriptions)

I'm sitting here writing this and about to hit the buy me button on eBay...

[MJSfoto1956]

BTW: here are some interesting photos of the Gaoersi 4x5:

http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138164123.jpg
http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138164149.jpg
http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138164092.jpg
http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138165804.jpg (not listed in the part numbers)
http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138165857.jpg
http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138165891.jpg
http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138165913.jpg
http://bizweb.cn/com/poodley/pic/1138165973.jpg

Michael

[MJSfoto1956]

I've uploaded some high res photos of the Gaoersi 4x5 I found on a Chinese site to my website:

http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.1.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.2.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.3.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.4.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.5.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.6.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.7.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.8.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.9.jpg
http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/Cameras/Gaoersi.10.jpg

Enjoy!
Michael

[Jerry Fusselman]

My Gaoersi 4x5 can use these lenses:


55 mm allowing 25 mm of shift (modified by Ken Ruth)
80 mm allowing 25 mm of shift (factory)
150 mm, but no shift (factory)
240 mm
360 mm Telomar f/5.5


Ken Ruth provided the capacity for 25mm with the Apo Grandagon 55mm---over the 18 mm possible this is possible with the factory spacer. The lens vignettes with 25 mm of shift on 4x5, but not on Linhof 612.

He also made the spacer solution for me for the 240 mm and 360 mm lenses. One spacer works for both lenses. The spacer he made weighs 6 ounces! Yet it seems quite durable, and it has a tripod mount.

I give here a few details as to my design for the two longer lenses, in case someone out there might be interested. My Graflex XLSW focusing mechanism adds about 10 ounces. Both lenses are in Graflex XL barrels; they both focus to infinity, of course. The focusing mounts have almost 14 mm of throw, and that can be extended with Graflex XL spacers to arbitrary long distances, so I can also use them for portraits, and even past 1:1 magnifications, though it does add weight. The spacer to shoot head-and-shoulders with the Telomar weighs almost a pound, but I see no reason yet why it cannot serve as a hand-holdable 4x5 portrait camera, if I can somehow get good at standing at the right distance for correct focus.

In 240mm, I have three lenses to decide between: A Ronar f/9, a Dagor f/6.8, and a Sironar N f/5.6.

Both lenses also will someday go (with a different spacer) on my little 617 camera, and I can use both lenses on my LF cameras while they are still in their barrels.

It will be interesting to see if I use this camera or my Fotoman 624 camera more this summer. My new Fotoman viewfinder arrived today, and it seems sensational! Now that's a viewfinder.