New Mexico?

[Two23]

Wife & I are planning a trip to NM through eastern CO later next month. Am looking at early Indian ruins, Spanish Missions, Bisti Badlands, riding the Cumbres train, and Carlsbad. Also looking at bat caves other than Carlsbad. Will be using a Nikon DSLR, a Zeiss Super Ikonta, and maybe a 4x5 kit with B&W film. Have never been to NM. Have read the southern half is somewhat dangerous. How dangerous? I have a CCW and small pistol but if a place is that dangerous I might just avoid (as I do SF, Chicago, Seattle etc.) Other than safety, any other suggestions? Am planning on carrying a lot of water and we do have quality hiking shoes and warm clothing.


https://www.roadsnacks.net/most-dangerous-cities-in-new-mexico/


Kent in SD

[BrianShaw]

Unless you are in the ghetto part of ABQ, or Gallup, you won't need a gun. And if you run into a "situation", the gun will likely just make matters worse.

[xkaes]

As a guy who has traveled all over New Mexico for four decades, has a Master's degree in criminology, and has worked with crime statistics for even longer, I know that any idiot can manipulate numbers to paint any picture they want.

Any city or town anywhere in American has crime. It varies with the type of crime, the year, the location, the season, the time of day... I could go on and on.

New Mexico is as safe as any place else -- but I would not walk down a dark alley at 2 AM anywhere in the entire country, armed or not.

And hiking is one of the safest things you can do anywhere.

But don't forget Guadalupe Mts. National Park. Technically it's in Texas -- not a safe place to be either -- but geographically it's really in New Mexico.

If you cross the White Mountains -- very nice area -- you'll probably see a lot of guns. They are carried by Texans -- it's a popular summer resort area for them.

Check for areas that have had forest fires over the last few years -- there are LOTS of them. Not terribly photogenic.

Don't miss the Gila Wilderness, the Organ Mts (BLM) and White Sands if you are way down south.

It's prudent to be careful -- not paranoid -- wherever you are, in Williston or Las Cruces.

[BrianShaw]

Here are some statistics (albeit about 18 months old) to go with @xkaes professional judgment:

https://www.safewise.com/blog/safest-cities-new-mexico/

[tomwilliams]

Kent - you choose a good time of year to visit NM - late September through October are optimum, in my opinion, especially during wet years, which this is. No doubt you have Chaco Culture National Historical Park in your sights - it is fabulous. Just north of the park is a badland called Ah-she-sli-pah, not spectacular like Bisti but nice and out-of-the-way spot that you could camp near. Ship Rock is quite a sight, about an hour's drive north NW of Bisti.

If I was making a trip that accented pueblos and cliff dwellings, in and around New Mexico, I'd probably start at Mesa Verde in SW Colorado, then head south from Durango to Aztec, NM (some ruins there) and Chaco Canyon. Thence to Acoma and then to the Spanish mission ruins east of Albuquerque.

South of Chaco and just east of Grants on US 40 is El Malpais National Monument, a huge lava flow bordered on the east by sandstone plateaus, which include a pueblo probably already on your list: Acoma Sky City Cultural Center. There are interesting hikes out of The Narrows picnic ground inside El Malpais park, east to the sandstone and west to the lava fields. There is a first-come, first-served campground between The Narrows and the ranger station on highway 117 (aka El Malpais road, off US 40).

Shooting east along Highway 40 to Albuquerque, you can get to the Salinas monuments by driving south on US 25, then east on state hwy 60 (with a modest jaunt north on state road 55 out of Mountainair). The Salinas sites might be quite nice in the fall setting of the Monzano mountains, if the oaks are turning. The highway to Carlsbad (US 285) is not very far east of Mountainair.

You can pack quite a few of those places into an efficient route, and there are many camping opportunities. Not necessarily campgrounds though - I mean BLM land and national forest land. The campground at Chaco is pretty dismal.

I don't know about southern New Mexico and danger. What kind of danger? I've never worried about camping or tramping anyplace I was legally entitled to go - including the bootheel (far SW New Mexico). Not to downplay specific warnings you may have received. I do think you're prudent to avoid places you think you might need a pistol. And the folks there might rest easier too.

If you're as far south as Carlsbad, the Guadalupe mountains are in Texas, right on the border - quite a few photographic opportunities there, and some nifty hiking, on the east and west sides of the range. There's a decent campground at Guadalupe Mountain National park visitor center, but it fills up. Probably reservations can be made via reservation.gov. There's another campground on the west side of the Guadalupes, Dog Canyon campground, less crowded, and there are some very nice hikes into the mountains from there.

cheers
Tom

[Two23]

If I was making a trip that accented pueblos and cliff dwellings, in and around New Mexico, I'd probably start at Mesa Verde in SW Colorado, then head south from Durango to Aztec, NM (some ruins there) and Chaco Canyon. Thence to Acoma and then to the Spanish mission ruins east of Albuquerque.

South of Chaco and just east of Grants on US 40 is El Malpais National Monument, a huge lava flow bordered on the east by sandstone plateaus, which include a pueblo probably already on your list: Acoma Sky City Cultural Center. There are interesting hikes out of The Narrows picnic ground inside El Malpais park, east to the sandstone and west to the lava fields. There is a first-come, first-served campground between The Narrows and the ranger station on highway 117 (aka El Malpais road, off US 40).




Mesa Verde is one of the reasons I wanted to head that way. Went there as a kid and was duly impressed. Will only have something like 8-10 days in NM so we're just trying to get some ideas for possible future trip. I tend to gravitate to desolate areas. You'd think a guy living in South Dakota would go the opposite direction.;) Since I love to photo abandoned farm houses and country churches on weekends, seeing pueblos and Mission churches is a sort of extension of that. Wife & I love to seek out locations that are "quietly spectacular." By that I mean the scenery is first class but only regional people seem to know about it. Craters of the Moon park in southern Idaho is an example, as is Dry Falls in WA. Back in May/June we flew to Seattle and rented a car, then drove 3,500 miles just inside Oregon and Washington. Saw quite a variety from dramatic coast, mountain waterfalls, and dry plains. This trip will be similar if not larger in scope.


Kent in SD

[CreationBear]

I have a CCW

One of things that can slip your mind if you live in a free state like South Dakota, but I don't think New Mexico grants "reciprocal" carry privileges. In all honesty, some of the other states that you'd have to transit might technically have reciprocity, but have been sufficiently Californicated in recent years that you might need to factor that into your decision making.

[tomwilliams]

Kent, if you do get to the Salinas mission ruins, or otherwise onto US 60 east of US 25, and head thence down US 285 to Carlsbad, you'll pass through the largely abandoned towns of Encino and Vaughn. You might find some photo prospects there. There are a few other abandoned buildings on the way to Guadalupe Mtn park as well.

I find that landscape that you travelled May/June mind boggling - river canyons cutting through hundreds of feet of basalt, for hundreds of miles ... leaves me speechless. For my tastes, Nevada is another gold mine of "quietly spectacular" prospects, especially the US 93 and NV 375 areas, and certain of the north-south roads between NV 6 and US 50 and US 80. I have a few photographs that don't do justice to those spots.

I don't think you would be disappointed by El Malpais, speaking of desolate. There's another massive lava flow farther south and east, the northern end easily attained via NM 380 between San Antonio and Carrizozo (San Antonio is about 90 miles south of Albuquerque).
cheers
Tom

[Tin Can]

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/uscca-info/guide/concealed-carry-map/?tID=5f2307d0769fa&utm_source=google.com&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=10317322792&utm_term=carry%20concealed%20map&utm_content=concealed+carry+map&utm_purpose=lead+generation&cq_src=google_ads&cq_cmp=10317322792&cq_con=102274092669&cq_term=carry%20concealed%20map&cq_med=&cq_plac=&cq_net=s&cq_pos=&cq_plt=g&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItO_v4ZGf-gIVjMiUCR1UKAhEEAAYASAAEgLqu_D_BwE

[domaz]

Chicago and Seattle are no in any way dangerous cities if you are in the touristy areas you likely would be visiting. Chicago is a huge sprawling city with a few problematic areas like the South side (but as a tourist why would you go there?). Seattle has a homeless problem but the popular areas like Pike Place, Space Needle / Seattle Center etc are fine. Also avoid hotel/motels that are cheaper than average or distant from downtown.

[John Kasaian]

New Mexico really is like the license plates say----Land of Enchantment.
I've never had an issue in New Mexico, in fact I've a great time on all my trips there.
Just be prudent, especially in border areas considering the current problems.

[jprofita]

If you go to Mesa Verde NP, which is spectacular and can be busy, consider Hovenweep NM, just over the border in Utah. There are some great ruins and it is easier to shoot with a big camera.

[djdister]

New Mexico really is like the license plates say----Land of Enchantment.
I've never had an issue in New Mexico, in fact I've a great time on all my trips there.
Just be prudent, especially in border areas considering the current problems.

Right. Just remember that CBP may patrol and setup highway checkpoints within 100 miles of the border, so be careful what you carry...

[Rayt]

I love NM. The last photography road trip I did was to Tucumcari with a 5x7 in March two years ago. White Sands is beautiful and so is Las Cruces.

[xkaes]

Just be prudent, especially in border areas considering the current problems.

Of all the border States, NM has the fewest number of people crossing the border -- legal or not. One of the reasons is that there are basically no roads -- paved or not -- anywhere near the border. If you are in New Mexico, and you want to get close to the Mexican border, you have to "go out of your way". Pancho Villa State Park is not on too many "must-see" lists.

[John Kasaian]

I'd suggest speaking with local authorities whenever possible based on my experiences in CA, where some areas (not many, and the only two I personally know of are actually several hundred miles from the border) are very active when it comes to cartels and gangs.
These are places the Highway Patrol won't even be found after sundown.
Like I said, I personally have never experienced any trouble in New Mexico going about my tourist schtick, however
locals with first hand knowledge are invaluable.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm sure there are a certain number of bad people in every state. Every big city has certain dangerous neighborhoods, and dicey druggies are now everywhere. But frankly, I'd be more worried about simply walking down the tourist streets of San Francisco than anywhere I've ever been in New Mexico. Most of it is wide open spaces. It's pretty much common sense : if people are hanging around drinking or looking stoned, move along. A gun might not necessarily help. It might just provoke someone, or tempt them to steal it. In gang-prone areas, just seeing a gun could start a melee.

I've always been a lot more worried about drunken deer hunters, and have had several close calls with them shooting randomly. So anytime I car camp in the woods, especially in autumn, I always drive around a little first to make sure there is plenty of distance between me and where boozing hunters are hanging around telling tall tales and foolishly playing around with some firearm they only unpack once a year. National Parks are usually quite safe, that is, unless you're the type that backs up over a cliff taking a selfie. There have been quite a number of those incidents!

Most cartel activity is back in the brush somewhere out of public view. We have multiple "narco counties" in California, as well as major cartel activity even within the hot brushy sections below or even within Sequoia and Yosemite National Parks, and they've been found even within Pt Reyes Natl Seashore as well as in some of our bigger Regional Parks. These tend to be well concealed, heavily armed industrial scale marijuana operations using helicopter dropped-in labor and supplies. They get discovered by official overflights when forest fires lay bear their operations. Hundreds of them have probably been destroyed by our recent huge fires, especially up around Mt Shasta. They're a big concern due to how they divert so much water, and use large quantities of cartel-supplied illegal pesticides and herbicides which get into the water. Otherwise, they're deliberately placed way back in deep brush well off roads and trails where nobody generally goes unless you particularly enjoy interaction with ticks and poison oak. They certainly don't like drawing attention to themselves. Different topic, really, than typical Southwestern travel, where you get a very long line of sight.

Sometimes locals don't appreciate seemingly nosy outsiders with cameras for entirely different reasons. Same advice - just move on if someone seems hostile. But many other spots do depend on outsiders with cameras and hiking shoes for a significant portion of their local income. I've been stopped a few times and hassled by "law enforcement" in the vicinity of polygamist colonies north of the Colorado River, who suspected me of being an FBI spy due to my camera gear; but that's more of a regional issue and rather rare nowadays.

[xkaes]

Right. Just remember that CBP may patrol and setup highway checkpoints within 100 miles of the border, so be careful what you carry...

Along the same lines different reservations have different laws/rules and National Parks/Monuments are something you should check out ahead of time.

[xkaes]

I've always been a lot more worried about drunken deer hunters, and have had several close calls with them shooting randomly.

You're not the only one. And YUP, it's HUNTIN' SEASON. Years ago, I was backpacking with a friend DEEP into Bandalier National Monument. The entire southern half of the Monument is NO CAMPING for Autumn and Winter for Big Horn Sheep protection. You can hike there -- but there are no trails, and no camping. One of the reasons we selected the National Monument is that hunting is not permitted anytime, anywhere in the Monument.

My friend and I were camping on a trail on the edge of the preserve -- a very beautiful and remote area, and on the morning of the third day we ran into herd of maybe two dozen wild burros. Quite a rare site, but moving too fast to take a picture. Shortly after that two hunters -- both with rifles, in camo, etc. -- appeared. We explained to them that hunting was not allowed anywhere in the Monument, to which they responded, "We have special permission". What was I going to do? They are armed, right?

They headed off, unfortunately in the same direction of the burro herd. They could not have know it was there, but soon after we heard repeated gun shots. They probably massacred most or all of the heard -- in a wildlife preserve of all places. When we eventually left the Monument, we reported the incident, and was told that Park Rangers had apprehended the hunters, but they did not know anything about the burro herd. With the help of my eye witness information, the bastards had no alternative but to plead guilty in Federal Court. Fortunately, it was not necessary for my friend and I to return to Albuquerque for a trial.

SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO ARM BEARS!

[John Layton]

Well...I did once get weirded out enough at an almost empty campground (Rhianna) near Abiquiu by a couple of guys at a campsite next to us whom we overheard plotting some trouble upon us to up and move to another campsite - but aside from this, and perhaps some interesting characters living up in Mogollon, all has been well...and on balance I must say that New Mexico has so much to offer and that the great memories (and images) far outweigh any weirdness I’ve experienced.

Here are a couple of images - Yucca pods at White Sands and rock formations at City of Rocks campground, near Silver City:

231084 231085

(edit: city of rocks pic looks fuzzy when posted here)

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I tiptoed around the topic of Reservations. But having grown up with Indians and being especially well acquainted with what happened on nearby reservations, I can only state that they can be even more violent than inner city situations. Most of that is domestic and involves alcohol consumption, a well-recognized plague in such places. Same rules. Use common sense and get out of Dodge once drinking begins. Don't trespass into protected tribal areas which demand official local guides. I'd stay out of Indian bars; and please don't ask why, or you'd end up with some true hometown stories more bloody than The Shining. Having said that, there are numerous tribal venues in the Southwest which cater to sight-seeing and are strongly tied to tourism, and which pose little or no risk to outsiders. Meth-heads hanging around Rest Stops and convenience marts are a bigger worry to me. I never ever sleep at a highway Rest Stop.

Overall, I'd be a lot more concerned to just have along sufficient supplies in case of an auto breakdown or unexpected storm - plenty of extra food and water, a good sleeping bag, etc, and of course, some extra film! I'll be headed that way not too long from now, but not as far as NM. Gas is still a little too high for that.

[Two23]

Unless you are in the ghetto part of ABQ, or Gallup, you won't need a gun. And if you run into a "situation", the gun will likely just make matters worse.


Brian-- Don't really want to get into it, but three times now a gun of one sort or another has got me out of a bad situation. I photo in some pretty remote areas and often at night. My main strategy is to simply avoid places that have a higher probability of danger such as major cities. Since I know little about NM I'm just trying to get some first hand info.


Kent in SD

[xkaes]

Overall, I'd be a lot more concerned to just have along sufficient supplies in case of an auto breakdown or unexpected storm - plenty of extra food and water, a good sleeping bag, etc, and of course, some extra film! I'll be headed that way not too long from now, but not as far as NM. Gas is still a little too high for that.


Your expert advise is appropriate for all out-of-the-way places in any State that has them -- and that's every State west of the Mississippi.

The most important thing for me it to bring everything I need -- and everything my car needs. I won't recount the time my alternator died in the middle of nowhere in NM around Christmas. Fortunately, I had brought along a spare alternator.

[Two23]

Well, I tiptoed around the topic of Reservations. But having grown up with Indians and being especially well acquainted with what happened on nearby reservations, I can only state that they can be even more violent than inner city situations. Most of that is domestic and involves alcohol consumption, a well-recognized plague in such places. Same rules. Use common sense and get out of Dodge once drinking begins. Don't trespass into protected tribal areas which demand official local guides. I'd stay out of Indian bars; and please don't ask why, or you'd end up with some true hometown stories more bloody than The Shining. Having said that, there are numerous tribal venues in the Southwest which cater to sight-seeing and are strongly tied to tourism, and which pose little or no risk to outsiders. Meth-heads hanging around Rest Stops and convenience marts are a bigger worry to me. I never ever sleep at a highway Rest Stop.

Overall, I'd be a lot more concerned to just have along sufficient supplies in case of an auto breakdown or unexpected storm - plenty of extra food and water, a good sleeping bag, etc, and of course, some extra film! I'll be headed that way not too long from now, but not as far as NM. Gas is still a little too high for that.


Living in South Dakota I'm familiar with large reservations. I get along well with the residents. I do watch for drunk drivers at any hour of the day and generally stay out of bars anyway. I've never had any issues on the reservations on the Northern Plains but I am careful about asking before taking photos of anything. I consider myself a guest and act accordingly. Common sense and courtesy goes a long way.


Kent in SD

[xkaes]

Since I know little about NM I'm just trying to get some first hand info.

Kent in SD

NM has as many bad actors as anywhere else, but I look at it as NM has as few bad actors as anywhere else.

[Daniel Unkefer]

If you are going through SW Colorado (fifty miles north of Santa Fe I was told) there is the Great Sand Dunes National Park. Might be worth it, I was there a long time ago.

https://www.nps.gov/grsa/index.htm

[Two23]

Sometimes locals don't appreciate seemingly nosy outsiders with cameras for entirely different reasons. Same advice - just move on if someone seems hostile. But many other spots do depend on outsiders with cameras and hiking shoes for a significant portion of their local income. I've been stopped a few times and hassled by "law enforcement" in the vicinity of polygamist colonies north of the Colorado River, who suspected me of being an FBI spy due to my camera gear; but that's more of a regional issue and rather rare nowadays.


I'm the friendly Midwestern type and can almost always strike up a conversation with just about anybody. My past jobs depended on that. One of the things I like about travel is meeting local "characters." Having my wife along should further disarm anyone's suspicions. I also somewhat bank on the stereotype of being from the Northern Plains as being more like from "Lake Woebegon" than NYC or LA. The Dakotas and NM/CO/NE/WY and western KS that we're traveling through are all mostly ranching & wheat farming states. I just didn't know if there was something specific to NM since I'm not familiar with it. The Canadian border isn't as much in the news as the southern border. ;-) NM and UT are about the last of the Western states we haven't spent much time in yet.

Wife & I do love lesser known spots rather than overrun tourist areas. For camera gear my plan is to bring: Nikon D850, Nikons 20mm f1.8 (night shots and interiors), 24mm PC-E (panos, architecture), 24-120mm f4 (general purpose), 300mm f4 PF (wildlife), TC-1.4Eiii, and Chamonix 4x5, 90mm f4.5, 135mm f5.6, 300mm f9, FP4+, and Zeiss Super Ikonta (6x6), TMax 400, along with travel carbon fiber tripod. I fill a 3L water bladder and place in m Osprey pack for outings, and carry a good assortment of emergency supplies.


Kent in SD

[Two23]

If you are going through SW Colorado (fifty miles north of Santa Fe I was told) there is the Great Sand Dunes National Park. Might be worth it, I was there a long time ago.

https://www.nps.gov/grsa/index.htm


Have been there and was impressed. Very difficult walking though! Mesa Verde is my main "target" in CO on this trip. We've covered most of the northern 2/3 of the state already.


Kent in SD

[Two23]

NM has as many bad actors as anywhere else, but I look at it as NM has as few bad actors as anywhere else.


Probably true. In my travels over the decades I've found that people are people wherever you go.


Kent in SD

[tomwilliams]

Living in South Dakota I'm familiar with large reservations. I get along well with the residents. I do watch for drunk drivers at any hour of the day and generally stay out of bars anyway. I've never had any issues on the reservations on the Northern Plains but I am careful about asking before taking photos of anything. I consider myself a guest and act accordingly. Common sense and courtesy goes a long way.


Kent in SD

My experience parallels yours, Kent. However, reservation boundaries are often poorly marked, or not marked at all, so it's possible to trespass without intent. That vista or formation yonder is often pretty irresistable to me, and I usually won't resist if there isn't a dead obvious "Keep Out" warning. On the several occasions that I've been accosted by indians for trespassing, the encounter was always firm but polite and unthreatening. What you said: "I consider myself a guest and act accordingly. Common sense and courtesy goes a long way."

[xkaes]

Wife & I do love lesser known spots rather than overrun tourist areas. For camera gear my plan is to bring: Nikon D850, Nikons 20mm f1.8 (night shots and interiors), 24mm PC-E (panos, architecture), 24-120mm f4 (general purpose), 300mm f4 PF (wildlife), TC-1.4Eiii, and Chamonix 4x5, 90mm f4.5, 135mm f5.6, 300mm f9, FP4+, and Zeiss Super Ikonta (6x6), TMax 400, along with travel carbon fiber tripod. I fill a 3L water bladder and place in m Osprey pack for outings, and carry a good assortment of emergency supplies.

Kent in SD


This brings up another important travel tip -- which is not specific to NM. Wherever you are don't make yourself conspicuous -- especially your "valuables". And that's not just camera gear. It can be camping gear -- or even what you are driving. Lots of places from airports in cities to National Parks in the boonies have signs saying "DON'T LEAVE VALUABLES IN YOUR CAR", etc. My 30-year-old, rusty clunker lets everyone know -- "There ain't nothin' in that jalopy".

Several years ago, a professor from the University of Colorado was driving down to Guadalajara -- as he had done many time -- to do some research. He was alone, and stopped at a gas station to fill up. He made the mistake of pulling out a wad of bills to pay. His body was found a few days later. I doubt a gun would have made any difference.

Don't make yourself a target -- wherever yo are.

[John Kasaian]

I'd stay out of Indian bars; and please don't ask why, or you'd end up with some true hometown stories more bloody than The Shining.

The Buckhorn, right?

[Drew Wiley]

The son of the bar owner was a high school pal of my nephews. The bar was in N.F. right across the River. None of that actual family which owned it would EVER enter the bar during actual business hours because it was too dangerous. It didn't help when three Hells Angels walked in there trying to looking tough. They never walked back out. Then for good measure, another individual at the bar was outright decapitated.... after that, the story get just too gory to recite. It also incited a purge of local bikers; and one in the canyon was burned out of his cabin and killed there. The particular Indians involved disappeared into the hills and I don't know if they were ever brought to justice. There was darn little sympathy for the Hells Angels around there anyway.

The kind of things which happened on our side of the River were even worse. It was quite an experience growing up since early childhood among some truly wonderful people, yet who had neighbors I also knew who turned out to be axe murderers. The trend ran in certain families. Outside the Rancherias (our term for Res), life was far more normal for them. My growing up policy was no different than what I stated on the foregoing threads. Even if someone is seemingly the mildest person you've ever met, once the drinking starts, get out of Dodge fast. That was especially important down at Sycamore (Cold Springs). Gosh is that some beautiful country in the Spring. And I've hauled my 8x10 up many a steep canyon side around there. Nobody around.
But along the curving roads, gotta watch out for the occasional drunk. After getting out of the "hotel" for drunk driving, certain ones would always visit my mother first. They were lifelong family friends, but sadly had short lives due to alcoholism. It's made me curse the Reservation System my whole life.

[Vaughn]

The Buckhorn, right?

There was a Buckhorn Bar in Covelo, CA when I worked for the Forest Service in the 80s. I only went in once, left early cause my ladyfriend did not drink. My brother stayed behind, got into a fight a local cowboy, then a member of the local reservation with a grudge decked my brother's opponent with a pool cue in the teeth.

A dozen seasons I worked out of Covelo...stayed out of the Buckhorn. Actually, stayed out of Covelo most of the time.

[Tin Can]

I spent 40 years getting mostly free drinks, bartenders and owners love me, almost immediately

Chicago has some very rough bars with nightly battles

Cop Bars, Gang Bars, Mixed Bars, Yuppie Bars, Old Man Bars, Gay Bars... you get the idea

We also had cowboy, redneck, Native American, 26 languages at the HS

One bar we called the 'Gun and Knife' as every night at the pool table...blood

It also had an illegal 5am square outside bar, quiet music, bartender in middle...

I sat on the white trash side...we had black, mexican and hillbilly sides

We all insulted each other until dawn, but never a fight at the outside alley bar

Then the BIG college bought several of the bars for huge money

Maybe it was the the street prostitution, at 2am and 5am

I walked 4 blocks home in the middle of the 4 lane street

for safety




I miss the good old days

[Drew Wiley]

Our cowboy and logging crew hangout was a different spot, and frequented by Indians too, but of the more friendly sort. After nearly all the rest of the town literally blew up when a logging truck took a wide turn and collided with the gas pumps, that tiny building became a superb family owned Mexican restaurant. Never a problem in there with one potential exception. If some "urban cowboy" swaggered in looking out of place, they'd look over his cowboy boots and hat, and if it all looked clean, he might be made to feel quite unwelcome. Prior to that, what it was still basically a bar, there were a few murders over the years, some so bizarre or colorful that there was an award-winning spinoff book of short stories about them, with names and physical descriptions switched around a little; but all the local knew who the real characters were, and that the actual stories were even more lurid. I personally knew the real individuals quite well myself. Tiny towns often contain some stunning lore and many dramas.

One thing I enjoy on the road all over the West is stopping in tiny local breakfast diners and sitting at the counter starting up conversations with the locals - cowboys, Indians, miners, truckers, whoever. Once you gain their trust they tell you about all kinds of interesting local things and places. Sharing stories is a vital part of rural cultures, something many people from the big cities always in a hurry simply don't understand. Just like LF photography - ya gotta slow down and take it in. Pressing a shutter is just part of a long qualitative process in which perception itself is the key element.

[Jim Michael]

Most of my recent trips have been to the southern half. Bosque del Apache near Socorro has abundant wildlife, Crane Festival late Nov. To the west about an hour is the VLA radio telescopes. There are some ghost towns mapped but I think most of them have been scavenged. If driving in the wilderness you're more likely to need a PLB than a firearm. Take extra water just in case.

[Vaughn]

Good on you, Drew. I'm the opposite...I tend to be quite shy in public...in and out of a diner or pub without much talk. If someone is talkative, I'll talk. Quite enjoyed my daily pub visits (but all closed on Sundays) for a meat pie and a beer for lunches as I biked down New Zealand, but missed a lot of possible interactions with locals due to my shyness, but had some enjoyable one's too. A Maori gent drinking next to me invited me to step outside and as we looked up the coast, he described the system that the local native families had for sharing the food-gathering areas.

But usually it is in and out of Dodge, and back out into the wilds. An introvert refugee from the big city (celebrating 50 years out of LA). :cool:

[tgtaylor]

Back in the early 70's I lived in Albuquerque for about 3 months – had an apartment and all that. It was my experience that the indigenous (the “real Indians”) were by far the most friendly - always gave you a smile. One night when driving home a dance let out in front of me and a large group of Indians spilled out of the auditorium to hitch for a ride. I stopped and loaded the car up. Drove a good piece on the black-top and they motioned for me to turn off on an unpaved road which I did and continued on it for a good 20 miles before I came to their home – a group of trailers with horse corrals. It was a very positive experience all around and with full moon out that night I had turned the headlights off and had an “old west” sensation while driving down that dirt road.

Of course things may be different today.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

It's not about any given day or any random experience, Tom. The remote countryside is no different from the big city. You need to be conscious that bad people are now everywhere, and that even good people can do terrible things under the influence of drugs or alcohol. And it's a FACT, not a stereotypical myth, that certain ethnicities don't handle alcohol well, especially the cheap fortified type which abounds in such areas. And now meth culture is throughout the West, affecting all kinds of people. For those of us who seek quieter places and wilderness experiences, there is little to worry about out there, once we get past drunken hunters shooting from the roads, or even across them. I'd far rather face storms, cliffs, rattlesnakes, scorpions, bears, and mtn lions than stoned people. But to and from, one still needs to be aware of their surroundings. There isn't a single parking lot in this entire city, or any adjacent city, where I don't look around before I park. Same goes for trailhead lots. Even if the statistical odds of a problem is low, one doesn't want to be that statistic, or tempt it. Just look at all the hell breaking loose in SF right now with tourists parking cars with personal belongings inside, in plain sight!

Indians were among my closest circle of friends and climbing partners. I lived among them over sixty years (even if only part time on weekends after I moved to the coast). Nicest guy you ever met might stick a knife into his brother or sister at the dinner table once drunk. When I got onto the school bus at the age of 5, nearly all my Indian classmates had personally witnessed murder or rape, or both, by that age. In some ways things have improved with the huge sums of money casinos bring in. But that's also brought in organized crime and a high degree of unfairness with respect to who is in, and who is out, in the definition of a tribe. There have been some very dark episodes of internal strife on even the bigger reservations. I'm not here to pontificate such things, inappropriately to the forum, but just as a reminder that one does not automatically escape crime in such areas. You can't take that for granted.

I sure don't obsess about things when traveling through states like New Mexico; but I'm not careless either. People have died from freeway shootings five minutes away from here; but if hit by a truck pulling a triple trailer coming over a hill in the wrong lane on the Navajo Res, a scenario I've actually encountered more than once, no difference. Just as dead if it connects with you. Had to dodge the same thing this past Spring here in CA outside Coalinga, except that it was a double trailer the semi was pulling, not triple.

[Alan Klein]

NM has as many bad actors as anywhere else, but I look at it as NM has as few bad actors as anywhere else.

Didn't an actor shoot a photographer or cinematographer in New Mexico? Ya got to watch out for them.

[Leszek Vogt]

I've bounced around all over SW on several occasions and my time in NM always have been v. positive. I tend to stay away from LA-ised Santa Fe and other slick spots. Safety has never been an issue, I mean even in El Paso (almost NM).

Oh, and I spend over 20yrs in Seattle and never had any issues (no gun needed). Sure, large cities can have some wicked or derange folk, but people know where the problem children are.....and I found beauty in my neighborhood and photographed it often (small things). Pike Place or the Needle++ have been photographed to nauseaum.

[Rick A]

My recommendation, Los Alamos and Bandelier National Monument. I grew up in Los Alamos, my pals and I would ride our bikes to Bandelier on Fridays after school to go camping and exploring (early 60's). My best friends parents would meet us there with our gear and camp with us. It was a very magical place (and time) back then. There's also the Valle Grande just outside of LA in the Jemez Mountains, an extinct caldera that is beautiful. It's on the road to Cuba and the Four Corners/Shiprock area.

[xkaes]

I second Bandalier. Not many people know about it. Beautiful canyons, mesas and cottonwoods. Keep your eyes open for petroglyphs, etc. -- they are all over the place, but not marked. Keep your eyes open for hunters as well -- they are all over the place, but not marked.

[John Layton]

...also don't forget Chaco Canyon! Very magical experience if you have some time to pitch a tent in the campground there. A good general store in Cuba near the east entrance to stock up on supplies...but do be careful as parts of the road in to Chaco can get really greasy when wet!

[Greg Y]

If you're going from Mesa Verde, to Shiprock, it's worth the 85mi sidetrip into Arizona to visit Canyon de Chelly....

[John Kasaian]

I'm getting hungry just thinking about Tomasita's in Santa Fe!

[BrianShaw]

I'm getting hungry just thinking about Tomasita's in Santa Fe!

Or The Shed.

[Drew Wiley]

I have a sensitive stomach, but the best MexTex food I ever had was actually in a tiny breakfast restaurant fully inside a trailer house on the Navajo Res with Shiprock in the background. You can always tell by the number of pickup trucks parked outside. I was the only non-Indian in there. A long time ago, so don't go looking for it. Just look for where the pickups are now.

[xkaes]

don't go looking for it. Just look for where the pickups are now.

Good advise. This morning I made myself some breakfast burritos. Potatoes, tomatoes zucchinis and onions from my garden, as well as FRESH NEW MEXICO HATCH green chiles -- and pinto beans, of course OK, I did not make the Monterey Jack cheese or tortillas either, but they reminded me of New Mexico!

I can't take a picture -- I ate it!

[tgtaylor]

I'm getting hungry just thinking about Tomasita's in Santa Fe!

My first taco was there - dozen for a dollar back then.

Thomas

[Alan Klein]

I have a sensitive stomach, but the best MexTex food I ever had was actually in a tiny breakfast restaurant fully inside a trailer house on the Navajo Res with Shiprock in the background. You can always tell by the number of pickup trucks parked outside. I was the only non-Indian in there. A long time ago, so don't go looking for it. Just look for where the pickups are now.

I wonder if this was the place with all the trucks? I was there passing through in April 2018. But we didn't stop other than to get a photo.
231284

[Rick A]

I have a sensitive stomach, but the best MexTex food I ever had was actually in a tiny breakfast restaurant fully inside a trailer house on the Navajo Res with Shiprock in the background. You can always tell by the number of pickup trucks parked outside. I was the only non-Indian in there. A long time ago, so don't go looking for it. Just look for where the pickups are now.

What an insult. You can get "Tex-Mex" in NM, but why would you. New Mexico style Mexican food is different than any other and far better. There are similarities but no equal. I remember getting tamales from the road side vendors at the Jemez Pueblo, took two beers to get a tamale down, incredible flavor but hot enough to blister the paint off your truck. There used to be a "Tastee Freeze" in Cuba that had chili burgers, great cheese burger with a NM green chili on it that would make you sweat and cry, but you couldn't put it down 'cause it tasted so good.

[Drew Wiley]

My truck paint was peeling at the time. Does that upgrade your opinion of the food, even though I was across the border in Arizona?

[Chauncey Walden]

If you are going to be in SW Colorado for Mesa Verde I would recommend you stop at Hovenweep first, especially if you like isolated and dramatic. Chaco is an incredible place and you can hike up onto the rim to some isolated ruins. If you continue on east to Bandolier be sure to drive on down through the Valle Grande (a volcanic caldera) and stop in Jemez Springs to see the mission ruin there. Since you're from SD, you'll appreciate that your most likely danger can be the weather. Keep an eye on it. Hovenweep, Mesa Verde, Chaco, Bandolier, Jemez Springs to Albuquerque may take all the time you have available. If you head north from there through Taos you can come into Colorado and hit the Great Sand Dunes. As has been said, on any reservation you are there as a guest. They have their own rules. Have fun.