ULF growing pains

[Marco Annaratone]

Dear forum,

in my voyage through the unchartered territories of ULF I got stuck in a minor point :-) that prevents me from joining this fascinating community: how does one develop the bl***y negative????????

Those of you who develop ULF film regularly may not realize it but the information present in the forums and on the net is so confusing, so conflicting, so messy that a poor soul like me is almost giving up on the idea of going ULF. Alternatively, it is possible that I am simply dumb (which cannot be ruled out), but for some reason I prefer my first theory, i.e., that the info on the subject is really all over the places.

Brush development, dip 'n dunk, horizontal trays, drums (and where on earth do you buy a unicolor drum today? Try google: well, have fun. Jobo ULF equipment is no longer with us, well maybe on Ebay, etc etc) People told me that they use print drums for their ULF film, others told me that they tried, it just does not work, no way. Huh!? Are ultra dilutions a way to avoid streaks/bands in large homogeneous areas of the negative, e.g., in the sky? When does banding occur, really? With dip 'n dunk development? With horizontal tray development? With drums? All the time?

After several months of chatting and surfing I am completely lost. Seriously, before putting down much dough I have to make sure I understand what is required in the development process, because I need to check if I have the infrastructure necessary (read: space, a darkroom, and then space again). For instance, if the answer is "horizontal trays are the thing" I may have to give up on the idea of going ULF because I do not have the necessary space. (I said "I may", ok ?)

End of ranting. Now, can some kind ULF-er provide me with the practical description of *one* method ---I do not care which one --- to develop a ULF negative from start to end. I do not mean the specific soups, I mean the operational aspects of handling and developing the film. And I mean including where to find the equipment, but without going through "... and if you look on EBay, in the next 12 months equipment XYZ will show up ..." or "...and then you can use woodworking tools to manufacture the contraption so-and-so..."?

I am not after instant gratification, mind you, but I am very interested in photography and shooting ULF and much MUCH less in routers and table saws, checking ebay every week, building custom contraptions, and so on. Am I asking too much?

My apologies if this mail vents frustration but ... well, I am frustrated.

Thanks for your help, as usual.

[Henry Ambrose]

What size is the film you want to develop?

[David A. Goldfarb]

I shuffle in trays. It works with any size, and you probably have them on hand. If you're planning to contact print, you'll need trays of the same size anyway, and you can use them for both prints and negs.

[John Kasaian]

For really big trays you could use the black plastic tubs used for mixing grout. These vary in size up to kiddie pool size. Of course you'll need counter space---which you'll need anyway for printng. Another option is to use a Unicolor processor with the 16x20 size print drum---$20 or so on eBay. FWIW I like the drum for souping negs and trays for prints. If you don't have room, you could use the Unicolor for both jobs, but I don't get much fun out of watching an image appear out of a drum!

[Michael Kadillak]

Piece of cake.

If you want to make your darkroom work a breeze with ULF (or any format for that matter) get a monocle night vision goggle so you can load holders easily, shuffle negatives in a tray for Development By Inspection (if you want to try this technique) to see what you are doing to prevent scratches or see what you are doing to insert sheet film in developing tubes with a minimum of hassle or frustration. Considering that ULF sheet film is expensive and a night vision monocle is only a bit over $200, it is money well spent and would nearly quailfy as in investment against unnecessary and unintentional errors. I load film holders, conduct DBI and put roll film on reels like a hot knife through a stick of cold butter. Second, I use a secondary infrared light source bounced off of a wall as opposed to the IR source on the goggle. I conducted some tests and one can induce a tiny bit of fogging if you are not careful. These instruments were not designed to produce 100% IR. Test this as you would a safe light in your darkroom.

Tray developing ULF I feel requires expertise in conducting this iteration AND the space to lay out some big trays.

If I were just getting into ULF I would advise that you start by getting 3" or 4" PVC pipe (7x17 or 8x20 with the three inch and 12x20 or 11x14 for the four inch) at the hardware store and glue a permanent cap on one end and use the second cap for opening and closing the tube and stand develop your negatives with either dilute Pyrocat HD or dilute Rodinal or any other developer that is effficient in high dilutions. A set of thin narrow trays for stop, fix and wash and you are set. There is a healthy dose of discussion on stand development on this forum and APUG for your review. Takes a minimum of darkroom space to develop sheet film in this manner and the edge effects associated with Stand Development are a plus. Take some sand paper and work down the outside edge of the tube to prevent scratching and cup the sheet film as you insert it in the tube. The materials are very inexpensive and you can put the whole set up together in an afternoon for a small price.

Many of us have been where you are in the frustration department so do not feel alone. Hang in there and you will be a ULF lifer.

Cheers!

[Brian Ellis]

"where on earth do you buy a unicolor drum today?"

Ebay

[Marco Annaratone]

Henry: 8x20 or 12x20.

David: I assume one sheet at a time and lots of developer and fixer. Do you replenish the developer?

John: can you point me to some literature on Unicolor equipment. I guess I need a Unicolor agitator, besides the drum, right? And probably some other accessories. Since I moved to Europe a few months ago, having one of these beasts shipped from the US (read: Ebay) costs a lot (and often the seller does not ship at all to here), that's why I was trying to understand if Unicolor stuff is still produced and if there is a European distributor. But literature on the subject seems to be really elusive (and Jobo is out of commission for ULF, I mean buying it new).

Michael: great! Quick questions: (1) I assume you do not use a mesh between the neg and the tube. What kind of material is this "mesh" anyway? (2) Once the neg is in the tube you pour the soup. No agitation or upside/down movement, you just leave it standing? (3) The "set of thin narrow trays" you refer to are filled of water and you put the tubes in for standard temperature control purposes. Do I get it right? (4) No issue re: fragility of the emulsion after long development time with diluted developer? How bad is it? (5) Diluted Rodinal means the standard range of 1:20 to 1:100 or much greater than this (say 1:200 or more)?

Come on guys, one more round of answers, be nice. I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel!!

THANKS!!

[Marco Annaratone]

Michael,

one more thing. If the math served me well, to develop a 12x20 I need a PVC pipe with about 1.3 gallon of developer in it. That is about 10 pounds. Assuming a concentration of Rodinal 1:100 and a development time of say 10 minutes (just an example) I have to lift and shake upside-down these 10 pounds at least ten times.

Do I have to start going to the gym? I mean, carrying a 12x20 probably does require going to gym anyway :-) but I just want to make sure I am not missing something really silly here...

Thanks!

[John Berry ( Roadkill )]

What formats are you shooting now?

[Marco Annaratone]

John,

I'm shooting 8x10 but color only. I develop B&W myself but only up to 4x5 (Efke and Across, and Maco IR with Xtol).

Cheers

[Scott Davis]

Marco- for developing in tubes using a stand/semi-stand/extreme minimal agitation (EMA) technique, you wouldn't want to lift and invert the tube anyway.... get one of the JOBO expert drum cleaning sponges on the long rod, and use that as your agitator. Take the top off the PVC pipe you have made, and insert the sponge into the chemicals, down the center so it does not touch the film. A couple long strokes of the sponge up and down should do it. While you can do stand/semi-stand with Rodinal, you will probably have greater success with a pyro- type developer. I think it was recommended earlier, but if not, Pyrocat HD is an excellent developer for these films. For s/s-s/ema, try 1:1:175 (Pyrocat is a 2 part developer, A and B). Developing times will be in the 45 minute - plus range.

[David A. Goldfarb]

With 11x14" I feel safe shuffling up to 4 sheets at a time in 16x20" trays. I do up to 8 with smaller formats, so maybe I'll eventually work up to that in 11x14". I often seem to shoot four sheets in an 11x14" session, so I haven't had much practice doing more yet. I usually use ABC pyro and run two batches through the same chemistry without replenishment.

Other things I've thought of--

Jobo clips. With ULF you really need a clip that hangs the sheet perpendicular to the drying line, and the pin that pierces the sheet offers a good measure of security without leaving a large mark on the neg. I've never had one drop off the line with the Jobo clips, but I've lost a few with ordinary clothespins.

Light table. My largest is 8x10", so I still need a bigger one for 11x14".

Storage. I use 11x14" glassine envelopes and archive boxes for negs and proof sheets.

Trash can. Yup, I realized my trash can was too small when I moved up to 11x14".

[Michael Kadillak]

Marco:

I do not use the "mesh" within the tube and get perfectly good results with both 8x20, 11x14 and 12x20. Find someone with small hands to run a piece of fine sand paper inside the tube to take out any imperfections that could cause scratching to the base side of your film. The thin trays I made reference to I use particularly with 8x20 and 12x20 to pre-soak the film in water before I curl them and insert them into the PVC tubes with the already filled dilute Pyrocat and start development. As per your question concerning the agitation. I usually do four tubes at once and if I have any areas of sky in the photograph for which I am concerned about mottling and uneven development I use what I believe is called a semi stand development (three minutes of water pre-soak, cup film emulsion side in and insert film in tube and put the cap on, 45 seconds of inverted agitation and then I divide the development time into fourths and do a 15 second inverted agitation with the single tube). I stage inserting film into the tubes and performing the initial agitation so I only have to handle one tube at a time with both hands I perform the individual agitation. The night vision goggles are perfect for this application (and many others) because you do not want to knock over tubes and be fumbling around excessively. When you see what you are doing it is extremely effective.

When the development is completed, I pour out the developer and reach inside the tube and grab the top edge of the film and pull to the center to take out the film and stop and fix in trays being very careful to not allow the film to get scratched. This is very important with the Efke film and will be less of an issue when the ULF T Max 400 shows up shortly. The thin trays prevent excessive movement in the wash cycle. I use either a pin registration punch or a 1/16 Fiskers pin punch to put a small hole in the non image area of the negative in the top corners and hang the film in a drying cabinet with trimmed paper clips leaving a hook on each end. Simple and effective. I do not like the spring loaded film drying clips but that may just be me.

Hope that helps.

Cheers!

[Henry Ambrose]

Take what I write for what its worth as I've only done film half the size you're working with.

Since your space, your desire for making things and waiting to buy things on eBay is limited I suggest you follow the simplest path which seems to me to be "one tray processing". I use this for tests on 4x5 and 8x10 as its so direct and requires almost no set-up time. Of course it assumes that you have a darkroom with a sink large enough to hold your tray or you can buy a mortar mixing tub and work in that but it'll be harder to clean up afterwards. You could also do this in a bathtub if you don't mind working on your knees.

For your 8x20 and 12x20 film buy one 20x24 paper processing tray which should be available from any standard darkroom source. Set it in your sink and lay out three containers one each for developer, stop and fix - large, handled beakers would be nice given the quantities you will be using but anything you can pour out of neatly is OK. In darkness lay the film in the tray, pour on the developer, start the timer and agitation. Agitate by lifting the corners and sides of the tray gently, working your way around the tray to randomize the movement.

When time is up, pour the developer down the drain (if this is a bad idea for you then have a second tray or container diagonally under your developer tray to catch the pour-off). Pour in the stop or water bath (I use plain water, others like acid stops). When the stop is complete pour that off and pour in the fix. After a short while you can turn on the lights and you have a developed and fixed sheet of film in your tray waiting for washing.

Obviously one shot developer is preferred since you will discard it after one sheet. Any standard developer will work fine. I've used Xtol, Pyrocat HD, Rodinol and D23/D76H this way. Dilute it as reasonable to fit your tray capacity which is probably larger than your film's minimum stock requirement. Plenty of developer working solution is the correct amount - don't scrimp. Times with constant gentle rocking of the tray will be similar to small tank times for the same film, developer and dilution - at least near enough to start.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Marco,

I'm completely with David on this.

Let me voice my opinon that a serious ULF shooter will probably not use a print drum for very large negatives because it is simply too slow. Most of those can only do one negative at a time, and if you are even the slightest bit prolific, you will be spending waaay too much time in the darkroom developing negatives.

A casual shooter who is into shooting a sheet or two at a time will do OK with tube development.

I regualarly develop 6 sheets of film in a tray with no problems, and I get consistant quality. I have used the Jobo print drums in the past, but for my format (7x17) I find the limit of 2 sheets per load a bit slow as well. For 12x20, you are limited to a single sheet. Besides, the Jobo drums are not without their problems that need to be worked around.

I can't imagine trying to manage more than one pipe of PVC (which isn't light tight, BTW) in the size Michael is proposing. That is heavy, dense pipe. You are much better off using black ABS sintered pipe that is commonly used for waste lines and vents. It is made of a much less dense plastic, and it is also light proof. The grey PVC pipe used for electrical conduit is lightproof, but it is not commonly found in 3 or 4" versions, and good luck finding the proper end caps for that.

Night vision goggles? I've never felt the need for these in developing at all. It seems like it complicates unnecessarily an otherwise simple procedure.

I suggest you get some suitable trays for developing and get started. I don't use normal photo trays because they are too wide for the film I use, and waste spece and developer. I purchased trays from a company called MFG (molded fiberglass )Tray Co. You can get them from www.plastics.com, and possibly other places. They are available in a bunch of sizes, and many are long and narrow. There will probably be one that is perfect for 12x20. They are extremely well made, and not expensive like the photo trays are. Clean them out well after use, and they will last you a very long time.

---Michael

[John Kasaian]

Marco,

Unicolor stuff isn't made any more---it is strictly a used item. Check out Grey Wolf Phillip's article linked in the Large Format Homepage----he develops color 4x5s in one. You'd need both a base and a print drum.

Since you're in Europe, I don't know if it would be an option for you. I don't know if Unicolor was distributed in Europe, what kind of voltage converter would be required for US machines etc... After shipping and duties are factored in a Jobo might be a better deal. I don't know if Jobos will do ULF as I've never used one and don't know the sizes or capacities of their drums. Sorry!

Another option is just get a Unicolor drum, lay it across a couple of boards and roll it by hand.

Tray developing is still an option worth considering as others here have mentions. Once the film is in the soup its just like any other piece of film, only the tray is bigger and heavier.

[Michael Kadillak]

Night vision goggles? I've never felt the need for these in developing at all. It seems like it complicates unnecessarily an otherwise simple procedure.

What? How can one compare tray development of film, loading holders and conducting development by inspection under full visual illumination with the word "complicated?" Your hands are free and it feels like you have a hat on in the darkroom. What's the big deal?

It is simply a tool that works and I find them very productive particularly with inserting sheet film in tall tubes. Feeling your way around the darkroom like Hellen Keller and knocking over a tall filled developing tube unintentionally is not something I want to experience. It is only recently that the technology has advanced to the point where the prices have dropped dramatically and they are now quite inexpensive. Sheet film is still pretty damn expensive all things considered. Particularly if you are not in the darkroom three or more days a week and have your technique down cold, these devices can make it a stroll in the park for those that continue to scratch negatives tray developing.

If you do not feel a need for them, that is great. But many of us are of a different opinion after having actually used them.

Cheers!

[phil sweeney]

I'd tray develop some 8 x 10s first. For 7 x 17 or larger in trays one can start by developing one sheet. Though I dev 6 - 7 x 17s I have on occasion developed one only. I'd recommend pyrocat as it is cheap. Even for one negative use around 100 ounces of total solution (still cheap).

For dev by inspection get a green light. I use a 25W bulb (not 15W) at about 4 feet and sometimes view the negative closer and never fog my negatives.

[Oren Grad]

Marco, I think you've verified that there's no convergence of opinion here. ;-)

I'm a hard-core Jobo man myself. You won't catch me sloshing monster negatives around in trays or rolling them in sections of pipe. But really, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with any of these approaches - each meets different needs and preferences. Just use the advice here and elsewhere to select some entry strategy that seems feasible for you, and then plunge in. You'll figure out what's best for you soon enough.

Good luck!

[Nick_3536]

Unicolor may be gone but the Jobo print drums work fine for 8x10. At least for me. I know others seem to use them for bigger negs. Just check the archives. The comment about only being able to run a limited number of negatives at a time is very true.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've got to agree with Oren's sentiment--every method described works, but no method is foolproof. Just do what you feel comfortable with.

[sanking]

I consider myself a fairly serious ULF photographer and I use tubes or drums for all of my developing. It does take more time than tray developing, but in return you get very even develoment and are almost totally spared the danger of damge to the film.

For 12X20 I set up two separate motor bases and run them both at the same time, staggering the beginning of development by about 3-5 minutes. After fixing, I remove the film and wash in a tray, one sheet per tray.

Total time in the drum is about 15 minutes with my procedures, so you can do the numbers and see that it is possible to process about 6-8 sheets per hour this way. So if I return home after a long shooting session with 75-100 sheets of film I can easily develop it all in 10-12 hours, which I don't consider too onerous. And bear in mind that unlike tray processing, where you are standing around in the dark for the total time of development, with the film in drums you are fee to walk around and do other things, good for people who like to multi-task. So while I am developing the film I can be doing such things writing, answering correspondance, reading or just looking at things on the net.

Things go much faster with 7X17 film, since with the same set-up it is possible to do up to 12-16 sheets per hour as two sheets fit in the drum.

Another system that works very well with ULF film is to use open ended PVC tubes and just roll them around in a tray. Or, if you want to do stand or semi-stand development you can make a light type box to serve as the try and place the tubes in the box, turn on the lights and return just for the time when you need to agitate. BTW, you want the PVC tubes for minimal agitation since they sink to the bottom, while the ABS plastic floats and will leave part of the film out of the developer.

I know that tray processing of LF and ULF film works fine for many people but I have never liked it myself, both because I just don't like standing around in the dark, and because in the dark I am something of a klutz and tend to damagee the film.

Sandy

[Marco Annaratone]

Oren,

when I read the first line of your message I laughed so hard that I almost fell under the table :-)

Thank you all for investing time and patience in educating me on this less than obvious subject. I knew all along that there was no silver bullet, but it is pretty clear at this point that that are at least three methods that have resulted in happy users and good results. I will initially stay away from 100% tray development primarily for space reasons.

I need to regroup and consider whether I want to invest in a drum system (or two) or go the route of PVC pipes. This somewhat intersects my need to start developing 8x10 negatives at home. I already checked with a local store here (in Italy) and PVC tubes are easily available and I also found people willing to put together whatever contraption I need as a favor. (I also assume out of curiosity. Question: "How far is the septic tank you need to take the 10cm diameter PVC pipe to?" Answer: "Well, I actually need only a few pieces to develop film inside." "You need the PVC pipe for WHAAAAAT???")

I will probably start with the PVC pipes and then, as I am a Sandy King kind-of-guy (read: Homo Multitaskingus) I may switch to drums (especially if I start to shoot in quantity).

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that this thread has been useful to a bunch of other people who, like me, were a bit in dark but seriously interested in moving "up".

Cheers!

[robert_4927]

learn brush development and you'll never damage a negative. even with the finicky Efke pl 100 film. Get a nice wide Hake brush and a tray and you are good to go.

[Ole Tjugen]

So far I've done tray developing (blind), tray developing by inspection - DBI - (red light and orthochromatic film), DBI (green light and panchromatic film), DBI (light leaks from improperly blacked-out window and panchromatic film), and JOBO print drums.

Guess what: All methods work. All methods can give good results.

The JOBO is great if I happen to know the exposure and development time for that particular negative, the DBI is great for all other cases including finding the proper time/temperature/dilution for a particular batch of film under similar conditions.

I'll most likely continue to use all methods.