selling photos are "Arts and Crafts Shows" [Archive]

Brian Ellis

3-Apr-2006, 10:46

Lots of people do this and a few even make a living doing it. I investigated the possibility myself in some depth a few years ago, not so much to make a living as just a way of maybe paying for the equipment and materials I use. I concluded that the people who are successful work very, very hard, much harder than I wanted to work. Just think about the time and effort involved in first making the photographs, then the time and money to print and frame enough to have a decent selection to show. At that point you have zero revenue to show for the time and money you've spent to just get in position to exhibit. So then you start applying for entries, hopefully get accepted, load everything up in the van, drive who knows how far, unload the van, set up the tent, hope the show's sponsors didn't relegate photography to the back lot, talk to a bunch of prospective customers (hopefully) over the course of a weekend if it doesn't rain, take the tent down, load up the van, and head out on the road to the next show. Even with this extremely abbreviated summary of what's involved in doing this seriously you can see that it's a daunting task. Of course if you're just talking about entering one or two shows near your home that's different but you can't make any money that way.

Bill_1856

3-Apr-2006, 11:22

That's how Clyde Butcher made it for many years.

KenM

3-Apr-2006, 12:27

Brian's message should be read again. The money is there if you want to really, really work for it.

A friend used to make furniture, and tried to sell it at Farmer's Markets and such. He had some success, but for the most part, his inventory didn't move. He then did some research (and some thinking), and determined that his price point did not match the expected price point of the 'walk-by' shoppers. He determined that for the sale to be completely painless, for the purchaser to easily part with his/her cash, he would have to sell items at $10 or less.

He stopped selling furniture, and started making small apple crates out of recycled 2x4s - you know, they fit CD's, books, toiletries, etc. He purchased a brand new Harley with the proceeds....but he still had to travel a lot, and spend hours and hours doing mindless cutting and assembly. Was it worth it? To him, perhaps.

To me, selling work at a Farmers Market or Craft Fairs is not the way to go. You have to spend way too much time, time that could be spent photographing. Not to mention that I doubt if I could get what I expect for my photographs. Sure, I could easily sell mounted 8x10s for $20, but is it worth it? Like my friend, I would have to spend hours printing and mounting (not to mention spotting!) to make enough material to sell....

I guess it comes down to priorities - why are you in photography? To make a living, to pay for your gear, to have a bit of spare cash to buy film when the need arises, or just for the pleasure of it?

Me, I'll sell the odd print when the opportunity arises, but I really don't want to work to hard at it :D

Lon Overacker

3-Apr-2006, 13:11

You may want to check out the Yahoo!Groups and search for the group, "artshow_photo"
Some 2700 members of that active group.
groups.yahoo.com/search?query=artshow_photo (http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=artshow_photo)

Like has been said, it can be done. Certainly requires a dedication to the effort. I wouldn't consider it a profitable endeavor if you have another "job". I dabbled once at a local Art and Wine fair and did sell a few prints, but certainly didn't make up the cost of what it took to get there. Your upfront costs certainly get reduced greatly the more fairs you can manage.
So many factors to consider, like: Location, location, location.... :-)

Good luck,
Lon

domenico Foschi

3-Apr-2006, 13:17

This year it will be my first Art show in Beverly Hills.
I have heard vwery good things about it.
I think that if you are confident about your work, you should ignore the small shows, avoid farmers markets, and apply only at fine art shows where there is a more informed and art loving croud.

I have heard of artists going home after a weekend with $20.000 revenues. This also depends on your prices and if your work is good.
I ,do have a question.
I am planning to hang framed work, I bought a print rack where people can view matted work, and also some unmounted print in Boxes.
I would hate to give away a framed piece the first day of the show when sold.
I was thinking to propose to the client a free delivery option in a, let's say 50 miles radius.
If there are people here doing these shows, how do they deal with it?
If I give the image upfront, I will have a hole in the walls and I will miss potential sales.

bill proud

3-Apr-2006, 13:22

Rob,

I've had success but as others have said it is a lot of work. But so is everything else at which you want to succeed.

There are some write-ups floating around if you do a search but here is my experience.

You need a big enough vehicle to get your work and other gear to and from. I used my truck.

Protect the artwork with blankets and cardboard corners, obviously damaged art will not sell. Weather is always a consideration, again potential damage to art and keeping buyers away.

I have several images that always sell and I make sure I have them ready as 8x10's. These, hopefully, pay for the cost of the show, less expensive and easy to carry out.

I show a lot of large prints. Attracts customers from afar. I don't do bin art but others say it sells well too.

Stay away from hobby and craft shows as these attract a more mixed clientele.

You can see my work at, www.billproudphotography.com

good luck,

It can be fun. Some fairs have get-togethers before the opening.

Ben Calwell

3-Apr-2006, 13:44

Interesting thread -- do black and white prints sell better than color at these types of shows? I've been to few sidewalk craft sales, and the color photographs all seem to be variations of the same themes -- sunsets, blurred water in streams, fall foliage, flowers, etc. But maybe that's what people want.

Joseph O'Neil

3-Apr-2006, 14:10

A friend of mine who is a professional artist - "professional" in the sense that he pays the mortage and puts food on the table strickly from sales of his artwork, has told me that he has seen a slow decline in sales at art shows (holidays notwithstanding) not just of his work, but others as well.

the decline is more in size of sale in terms of dollar value, not the number of sales. More people are buying $100 prints than $1,000 prints. People, in general just seem to have a little bit less disposable income than they used too.

The exception for my friend seems to be the big ticket items. Bascailly it's easier to sell a $15,000 watercolour than a $500 limited edition print of the same thing. For him, it's getting to the point where's it is easier not to do shows, and just sell from his studio. But he's got the reputation wherein somebody will pay the big dollar for one fo his originals, whereas most people starting out have to build up to the point, and the market for such seems to be not as good as it was some years ago.

joe

Bill McMannis

3-Apr-2006, 16:09

This photographer, W. Spencer Parshall, seems to have a lot of success. I own several of his images. His site is at www.wsparshall.com.

He is a retired banker who travels Europe with his camera and hits the Michigan art fair circuit in the summer. Last time we spoke, he was shooting 645 though he previosuly shot 35mm. I do not think he ever shot large format, but his images have the perspective control associated with large format.

What makes his images sell is that 1) they really are nice photographs and 2) they are of recognizable places that many of us would like to go to, but cannot.

He sells most of his images framed and matted. He offers them just matted, but they are standard size so the buyer can run to an inexpensive frame shop (Hobby Lobby or Michaels) and have a nice framed image for a reasonable cost. His pricing starts at say $14 for a matted 8x10-ish print to $395 for a 24x36 framed image. He uses a professional lab for his prints and buys in bulk to control costs. Unless something has changed in the last year or two, he is not using a large format inkjet to create his prints. I have always been impressed with how good his prints look despite the smaller format he shoots. His process is described at his site.

He has a lot of money tied up in inventory. I suspect he has 300 prints with him at a given show.

Kirk Gittings

3-Apr-2006, 21:02

"I have heard of artists going home after a weekend with $20.000 revenues."

I have heard of this too say with high end jewlers at the Indian Market in Santa Fe. But I have never ever heard of any photographer coming anywhere close to this. Most of the people I know say they are doing well to break even.

Brian Ellis

4-Apr-2006, 00:21

"do black and white prints sell better than color at these types of shows"

There's a saying among people who do these shows, the gist of which is "black and white wins the awards, color sells."

Doug Dolde

4-Apr-2006, 00:53

If Spencer Parshall can make money with the photos on his website....then so can my dog.

Bill McMannis

4-Apr-2006, 07:05

Doug,

Some dog!

Bill

Bob Fowler

4-Apr-2006, 09:12

I went to a show this past weekend (a potter friend was showing) and wound up buying a print from a local photographer. She told me that I was her second sale of the show (this was about an hour before the show ended).

bglick

5-Apr-2006, 02:48

Brian Ellis.... I always enjoy reading your wonderful posts, information is always accurate and always written with a tinge of humor... I agree 100% with your assessment.... but of course, I could have not presented it so well... you may consider a career as a "post" writer :-)

Bill Proud... You shoot the same scenes I have seen a thousand times, but your imagery looks better then most all I have seen, that's a sign of a great photographer...lets face it, it's challenging getting better "looks" vs. some of these scenes we have all seen thousands of times. Excellent work, and combined with your very compeitive pricing - will make you a prime candidate for success.... the problem is, as Brian points out, success is an elusive word in LF fine art market.....

I have heard of only a few LF fine art photographers that make a living with their art...but when you press hard enough to find their story, their is often a 20 year history of loosing money before that first year when they turn a tiny profit, enough to pay themselves $3 / hr. What's more depressing, the gallery market is not much easier than the art fairs, as the competition is fierce and the % take for the photographer is low. It seems the best chance of success of all the options is opening a gallery in a good location and work the gallery.... of course, you still need the right work, the right pricing and all the marketing as any business requires for success. Thomas Mangleson has proven this concept might be the safest and simplist hope for success.

Kirk Gittings

5-Apr-2006, 09:13

An interesting technical claim from the Spencer Parshall site mentioned above.

"Earlier work was shot on 35mm Nikon equipment, however, each image taken was transferred to a 4x5 inter-negative to create the final print, thus producing sharpness to rival medium format."

Making an interneg increases the sharpness of a 35 transparency?

Claims of financial success by photographers like this, I take with a grain of salt. After 35 years in this business I have come to know what BSrs photographers are about their fees and sales. How many times have I talked to some photographer who is bragging about their booming art sales or commercial business only to turn around a few months later to find them working the counter in a camera store.

Mark Sampson

5-Apr-2006, 11:20

I believe the original mention of Spencer Parshall stated that he was a "retired banker". Which brings up the old question- "How do you make a small fortune in photography?" answer- "Start with a large fortune". It also reminds me of a photographer, whose name escapes me right now. He spoke at RIT and showed his (very good) environmental portraits of Tibetan nomads, shot in b/w and then hand-colored. In his presentation, he revealed that he funded his photojournalism with the profits from his orthodontia practice. I wonder how many eager RIT students noticed that part...

tim atherton

5-Apr-2006, 11:33

"I believe the original mention of Spencer Parshall stated that he was a "retired banker". "

- exactly. I doubt the photo sales come anywhere close to covering the costs of his travels and living expenses. They possibly cover the cost of his photography - film, processing, printing, maybe cameras - it subsidises his hobby.

"He spoke at RIT and showed his (very good) environmental portraits of Tibetan nomads, shot in b/w and then hand-colored. In his presentation, he revealed that he funded his photojournalism with the profits from his orthodontia practice. I wonder how many eager RIT students noticed that part..."

Borges?

I know very very few photographers who are self supporting doing only good, personal work (as opposed to high end commercial etc or who use their commercial work to support their personal work) and living entirely off the proceeds.

I know I'm moving out of the craft fair milieu here, but even the likes of Shore and Sternfeld (I think) and Killip and others often have part or full time academic jobs which still allow them some freedom to pursue their work. Burtynsky owns a very successful pro lab. Others teach a lot of workshops etc. Only people like Friedlander or James or Basilico and some others seem to survive almost entirely on the fruits of their work - print sales, exhibitions, commissions and fellowships/awards

Ted Harris

5-Apr-2006, 12:16

Kirk and Tim are right on the money. My total sales at the two big Christmas fairs I go to generally cover my production costs to make stock for the shows and maybe a few dollars more, when I say a few dollars more I mean like at best $100 or 200. If it were not for the exposure the shows give me, exposure that leads (usually) to more profitable work, I am not sure I would keep on doing them. For example, I did get several thousand dollars worth of commissions from people who viewed my work at these shows and chatted with me, people I otherwise probably never would have met.

Many years ago I used to do a lot more art fairs, etc. However, it didn't take long to realize that 1) the cost of producing fairly large framed and matted prints was seldom, if ever, recovered ... tht along with the fact that people frequently expect to pay less at one of these shows than they would pay in a gallery. At the time, some 25-30 years ago, I was represented by a good gallery in Georgetown, DC and I soon realized that all I was doing was undercutting my own sales.

Bill McMannis

5-Apr-2006, 13:30

The art show is a tough way to go and many drop out after a season or two. My key reason for pointing out Mr. Parshall is he has been at it for more than a decade. He must have something going to stick at it.

Mark Sampson

5-Apr-2006, 13:37

Tim, you were right, it was Phil Borges. I was quite impressed by his work from Tibet. Perhaps he said that he used the income from his orthodontia practice to *start* his photojournalism career, (this lecture was 5 or 6 years back) but even so... more power to him.

darr

5-Apr-2006, 14:04

"The art show is a tough way to go and many drop out after a season or two. My key reason for pointing out Mr. Parshall is he has been at it for more than a decade. He must have something going to stick at it."

He probably writes off his travel expenses through his craft show business. As long as you show a profit once in five years, IRS will legitimize this type of art business as a *business* and not as a hobby. A good CPA can give a lot of good guidance about this, but with his background as a banker I am sure he is on top of the best way to spend his retirement dollars to his advantage.

Bill McMannis

5-Apr-2006, 14:18

Darr,

You are correct about the accounting and writing off travel expenses.

I am convinced, however, that he is covering his expenses including travel to Europe. One only needs to attend an art fair and see his prints being carried out by happy fair goers. He is usually the top seller at any fair he attends.

Is his work art? That is very subjective. Should other photographers be annoyed with his success? He is producing images that people are happy to hang in their homes. I personally really like my large print he created of Toledo Spain. I would like to photograph the city myself, but it is unlikely I will be able to go there.

Paddy Quinn

5-Apr-2006, 14:39

You are correct about the accounting and writing off travel expenses.

I am convinced, however, that he is covering his expenses including travel to Europe.

I think it depends on what you mean by "covering his expenses including travel to Europe"

Is it covering all his photographic, equipment and printing costs? Is it covering his air fares/hotel/apartment/travel/vehicle rental bills etc? Food and other expenses? Presumably he has a home in the US (probably mortgage free?) - is it covering all the associated costs of that while he is away? Is it covering a realistic monthly stipend (or are we living off savings/investments here?).

I may be wrong, but I doubt it is covering all those. No doubt a nice chunk gets covered by the sales, and other expenses are probably also tax deductable, but I would venture the work is still being subsidised by his other investments and savings and that he could not otherwise make a living from print sales alone.

Wayne Crider

5-Apr-2006, 17:51

I am a frequent attendee at most local shows and try to watch and follow the action around the booths. Sometimes I will return at the end of the show and see what has been sold, and I always try and talk to the photographer when there is no one around. You can gain alot of information just standing around bs'ing for awhile while praising the work. There are those that do well and those that struggle. I many times find that it is the decorative art that sells better, and the scenes such as shown at Parshall's site is exactly what women are looking for, women being the largest group of buyers. Other booths that attract crowds and buyers are nature oriented.

One particular photographer that I had seen, had scenes such as Parshall's, with some prints as large as 30x40 and business was brisk. His 8x10's were priced at, from what I remember, something like $60 ea or 3 for $100 and the ladies were snatching them up. European scenes are the favorite from what I have noticed.

Kirk Gittings

5-Apr-2006, 21:38

Wayne,

To cover your equipment, shooting, travel, printing, framing, show travel, taxes, insurance and booth fee expenses you would have to sell a boat load of prints at those prices at every show you go to.

Brian Ellis

6-Apr-2006, 02:06

Ted Harris said" "If it were not for the exposure the shows give me, exposure that leads (usually) to more profitable work, I am not sure I would keep on doing them. "

Ted brings up a good point that I should have mentioned. In the course of my investigation I met a guy who spends a month or two in Spain each year photographing, then sells the results at fairs and craft type shows for four or five months each year. He said that he doesn't make a lot of money from sales at the shows but he's building a list of people who like his work and he then sells more work to them with mailings. His goal was to build up a big enough list so that he could quit the fairs and sell only to private collectors.

And to w.g., thanks very much for the kind words.

bglick

6-Apr-2006, 10:33

When many of us start out in the field of fine-art photography and visit art fairs and galleries, there is a mindset of "wishful thinking" that occurrs. It's hard to beleive people would do all this work and expend all this money in time and equipment for any other reason then to make a profit.

Yet, like so many other artist in other fields, in the end, if the artist can afford it, are happy to have an audience at any cost to them. 10 years ago, this was a hard pill for me to swallow, but now, I have come to accept the reality of just how hard it is. Not much different then musicians who will play gigs in clubs for less money then the it costs them move all the equipment in / out of the club....

Wayne Crider

6-Apr-2006, 19:41

Kirk the 8x10's were matted only and the larger prints went for a lot more. I remember prices of 3 and 4 hundered dollars. He must have been doing enough sales to support himself as he took a double spot and had a 10 x 20 tent. I belive he also had friends or relatives in Italy to stay with, and I believe this is what you have to cultivate.

WG, I use to help manage a CW band and it was amazing what club owner's only wanted to pay. It wasn't worth the effort for me based on my percentage. But I will tell you based on my trade of air conditioning service that a simple life photographing and selling images beats crawling thru an attic in the middle of summer to fix equipment every day of the week.

Hans Berkhout

8-Apr-2006, 21:15

It doesn't mattere if you are a professional or an amateur, but if selling your work is of importance to you than you better spend an awful lot of time and energy in self promotion. Just putting your best work on display will not necessarily lead to significant sales. Ask yourself if you are able and willing to do this consistently. Nobody else will do it for you until you have marketed yourself all over the place. Howard Chapnick used to say that brown (sulfur) toned rural scenes sell best at art fairs etc. But that was a few years ago.

David_Senesac

23-May-2006, 17:43

As a serious non-careeer photographer in Northern California, I've been perusing these shows since the early 80s as well as galleries and museums. For years most selling in such shows seemed to all be doing about the same thing. Hit all the tourist spots and take icon shots. Make modest sized prints and sell them for between $19.95 and $79 bucks un a cheap mat board with shrinkwrap. Since my area of photography is natural landscapes I've always been keen on looking at those putting out such images. Most of what I used to see was not very good. However in the last 15 years a number of better photographers have gotten into it and until the dot com bubble burst there was a period when some of them were doing quite well.

In the last year I went back and took another look at getting into doing some of those shows. An acquaintence of mine has been doing these shows successfully for some years and manages to do ok though has not gotten rich. There certainly is some big money to be made at the better shows in wealthier locales. However there is a lot of competition too as lots of low end photographers that make that a lifestyle work really hard to get a piece of it. Many of course just do not have very good material but that doesn't seem to make a lot of difference since they sell an array of small art stuff. At one large area show last August in a well to do local city, there were about two dozen photography booths within a half mile long length of show tents. One fairly well known nature photographer that is shooting 617 now did a killing as he had several large LJ5k prints that were exceptional. I made three tours of the show over a couple days and his booth was always jammed whereas all the others were either just barely making enough to cover show fees or hardly anything. I did speak with several. A couple said it would be their last shows and were getting out. My friend made a modest profit. I've always thought someone with really top landscapes printed large would knock people out and do well and that show proved it.

Then there are issues like judging and submissions. Many of the more difficult to get into shows require a competitive entry of one's art. The judging is of course done in a ridiculous outdated way that works against fine art larger format. And there is often a bunch of limitations on how photography has to be packaged and presented that is not too realistic. For instance framing a 32x40 inch print in a 40x48 inch mat and frame will cost several hundred bucks. It ends up being huge and expensive then one needs a commercial van for transportation. Of course the standard 10x10 foot size of a booth will not allow a photographer of large prints with lots of material to show much because there is only so much booth space. ...David

paulr

24-May-2006, 09:55

It doesn't mattere if you are a professional or an amateur, but if selling your work is of importance to you than you better spend an awful lot of time and energy in self promotion.

This is an ugly, ugly truth.

It's true even if your priority is just getting a lot of people to LOOK at your work--shows, publications, collections, etc.

My artist friends with the most success getting work out into the world typically say only a third of their time goes into making art. Much of the rest is spent on grovelling ... I mean, um, promotion.

Don Miller

29-May-2006, 06:55

Donald Qualls

29-May-2006, 12:11

Color definitely sells better.

The better photographers at a show are often the B&W guys, however.

The words "at a show" in the above quote are redundant, IMO.

Disclaimer: I shoot about 99% B&W, and damned near 100% on film... ;) :D

Don Miller

29-May-2006, 12:29

The words "at a show" in the above quote are redundant, IMO.

Disclaimer: I shoot about 99% B&W, and damned near 100% on film... ;) :D

And all this time I thought they were just too lazy to find real subjects.....:p

Graeme Hird

31-May-2006, 18:13

Sorry for coming into this thread so late, but I do have some experience here which may be of benefit.

I ran a small stall at the local monthly market for a couple of years. I usually managed to cover my costs each month with 2 or 3 print sales worth a total of around $120 (Aussie dollars, so around US$85). I received follow-up sales of 4 to 6 prints during the month which were directly attributable to my exposure at the market, and I was usually remembered when weddings or portraits were required.

Of course, I was never adequately compensated for my time; just my financial outlays. However, I don't regret my time spent at the markets. I treated those days as "market research" for my current work.

In October 2003 I opened my own gallery (http://www.scenebyhird.com/) in which I only stock my own work. I sell many of the same prints now for at least 3 times the price I was selling them for at the market, and I average 2 print sales a day. Some prints (which weren't available at the markets) now fetch $1600 plus framing.

The difference is in the customers' perception of the of the value my work: people now view my prints in a better environment (ie I control the lighting, sounds and smells in my gallery) and my gallery has an "air of permanency" (I'm an "artist" whose work might be worth collecting because I'll be around for a while). Selling at the markets is done by "unknown and second rate artists" (that's from the customers point of view, not mine ...)

So while I don't disagree with using markets as a spring-board for your career, don't expect to get rich at them. Use them to judge how your work will be received (just like the photographers that David_senesac mentioned) - if your work is not good enough, it's better to find out before investing $40,000 in your own gallery!

(Oh, and from my personal experience, colour sells. Everybody says they LOVE B&W, but when it comes time to pull the wallet out, it's a colour print they'll choose.)

Cheers,
Graeme

John Kasaian

31-May-2006, 18:54

FWIW I think it would be a real hoot to sit under one of those blue canopys and watch people people go by slurping snow cones and eating funnel cakes...

...but it wouldn't be as much fun as being somewhere outdoors making photographs with dead people's furniture ;-)

bill proud

1-Jun-2006, 08:13

BGlick,

Thanks for your compliment.

I've seen Graeme Hird's work over on F/32 site. Excellent material and I have a question for you. Now that you have your own gallery, do you man it or have you hired help? I have been considering that step but don't want to live at the gallery nor have to deal with hired help.

And an update from my earlier post. I passed on a coming show in Dolores, Colorado near my home. I'm going through some sort of, "don't care anymore", stage. I sold about $800.00 at last years show, netting about $400.00 after fees and cost of materials.

It has been a slow year so far.

Graeme Hird

1-Jun-2006, 15:48

Hi Bill,

At the moment I still have a full time day job as a computer geologist (I'm actually quitting next week, but don't tell my boss just yet!) so my wife runs the gallery from 10.00am until 3.00pm. I take over from 3.30pm until 5.30pm on weekdays and 9.00am to 1.00pm on Saturdays. (No other retail outlets are open on Sat afternoon or on Sunday, so there are no customers around.)

In five weeks (after my period of notice has expired) I'll be in the gallery most of the time, running marketing campaigns, matting prints, being creative with my trannies, etc, etc. When I need to make new shots away from the local area, my wife will step into the gallery again to fill my place.

The next step is to open another gallery in the capital city of this state - that will be happening in September. That's when things will start to get messy for me, since I'll be hiring a manager for the current gallery in Kalgoorlie. It's a huge step for us, but it's one we must take to grow our business (I just hope "must take" doesn't become "mistake"! ;))

I have been considering that step but don't want to live at the gallery nor have to deal with hired help.
That's going to be difficult for you. The gallery is simply an outlet where people can see your work permanently on display, knowing you will be there when they are ready to purchase. However, people must be brought to the gallery by your marketing efforts, and that's where most of your time will be spent to make it a success. It takes a lot of work to keep people interested in your gallery, and hired help won't be able to do it as well as you can. You won't need to "live at the gallery", but you will need to be the "life force" of the gallery. By that, I mean you will need to devote a lot of your time to running it, whether you physically sit in there or not. In reality, you spend much less time making photographs than you do selling them.

Sounds like hard work? You bet! However, nothing beats the feeling of knowing people love your work enough to pay their hard-earned money so they can hang your creation on their wall.

Cheers,
Graeme