Advice On Uneven Development On Film Edges

[IanBarber]

I have noticed this before with some of 4x5 negatives and although I have just been cropping them out, I wanted to start and do some contact printing so I really could do with trying to get to bottom of it if at all possible.

Film: FomaPan 200
Stearman SP-445 Development Tank

Looking down the left and right edge I am seeing what appears to be a shift in density running from top to bottom.

I haven't confirmed this on a light box yet because I am waiting for one to be delivered so I cannot rule out it coming from the scanner (Epson V800)

Has anyone else experienced this.

**Update - Developer was 510 Pyro 1:100 dilution


229454

[koraks]

AFAIK the combination of a stearman tank and pyro developer is kind of notorious. Give trays a try.

[JohnF]

AFAIK the combination of a stearman tank and pyro developer is kind of notorious. Give trays a try.

Unless I missed it, the OP didn’t specially mention pyro. However if he did use 510 pyro, this mirrors my experience with the Stearman tank with darker edges and uneven development noticeable in sky areas. I do not have this problem with Ilford DD-X in the same developing tank.

[koraks]

I based my comment on the filename of the example posted; you're right he didn't mention it explicitly.

[IanBarber]

AFAIK the combination of a stearman tank and pyro developer is kind of notorious. Give trays a try.

Would this also apply to Pyrocat HD or is just 510 Pyro which causes this issue

[IanBarber]

Unless I missed it, the OP didn’t specially mention pyro. However if he did use 510 pyro, this mirrors my experience with the Stearman tank with darker edges and uneven development noticeable in sky areas. I do not have this problem with Ilford DD-X in the same developing tank.

Yes I did use 510 Pyro at 1:100 dilution. Do you have any theory as to why this happens with 510 ?

[RJ-]

Yes I did use 510 Pyro at 1:100 dilution. Do you have any theory as to why this happens with 510 ?

Hi Ian

From your uploaded image, the density shifts from development look familiar (i.e. not exclusive to 510-Pyro).

I use Pyrogallol development and the competitive equilibrium [set up by the rate of the rapidly oxidising/exhausting developer vs bromide byproduct inhibiting active reagent] requires a systematic randomised agitation cycle.

Any submerged developing paper margin under agitating developer, usually observes more flow rate at the edges than the centre of the image. Particularly using a standard rock and tilt (left to right, top to bottom) agitation cycles.

if you are not observing any of these kinds of development artifact with other non-pyro developers, then it most likely is the like lack of consistent randomised agitation cycles to prevent the uneven flow rate of active reagent. You can try increasing the volume of developer solution per sheet perhaps.

[Alan9940]

I have experienced this uneven density with several different developers and various tanks. I doubt that this issue is confined specifically to 510-Pyro or any other staining developer. In my experience, it all comes down to arriving at a good agitation technique that eliminates or, at least, minimizes these artifacts. For example, with my B&W King tank (a stainless tank very similar to the old Nikkor 4x5 tank) I have to lift and invert it slowly all while turning it in a smooth orbital fashion. Standard agitation technique with this tank produces all kinds of issues. I don't use the Stearman tank anymore.

[IanBarber]

With the SP-445 I usually just invert it slowly towards me and I use 360 degrees as 1 inversion.

Interesting that both Allan9940 and RJ- both mention agitation. I could increase the amount of solution to 500ml max but I am not sure if that would leave enough head room to allow the developer to move freely.

Many variables to try here to try an

[koraks]

Would this also apply to Pyrocat HD or is just 510 Pyro which causes this issue

In my experience (which does NOT involve the Stearman, but I'm familiar with uneven development issues), 510 pyro is more finicky than Pyrocat in this sense, and Pyrocat is more finicky than all non-staining developers I've used so far. So basically 510 pyro was the 'worst' of the bunch in terms of getting even development especially on sheet film. This of course does not guarantee even development with another developer in this tank; I'm sure others with first-hand experience with the Stearman will chime in, but I remember having read about more problems.

[IanBarber]

In my experience (which does NOT involve the Stearman, but I'm familiar with uneven development issues), 510 pyro is more finicky than Pyrocat in this sense, and Pyrocat is more finicky than all non-staining developers I've used so far. So basically 510 pyro was the 'worst' of the bunch in terms of getting even development especially on sheet film. This of course does not guarantee even development with another developer in this tank; I'm sure others with first-hand experience with the Stearman will chime in, but I remember having read about more problems.

Interesting because looking back through some previous PytoCat 4x5 negatives on the odd one I do see this issue but not all and with with HC110 I don't see it at all. I am not experiencing the issue with 510 on 35mm so your observation about pyro based developers been finicky may be a very valid point here.

[koraks]

The 35mm film I did in 510 as far as I remember also didn't show any trouble, but I just put that down to 35mm simply not being very prone to it due to the physical properties of the film and reels, and the usual agitation patterns that are apparently mostly sufficient.

If memory serves Sandy King did at the time when Pyrocat was brand new argue that he had optimized it to reduce problems with unevenness, but I may be wrong. In any case, I find it somewhat easier to circumvent the issue with Pyrocat than with 510 Pyro.

Btw, because there has been some renewed discussion on 510 over the past 10 days or so, and I had the pyrogallol here anyway, I mixed a small amount of 510 a couple of days ago just to play with. So far only did some 4x5's in trays with it for carbon transfer, 1+25 for a few minutes. No unevenness as of yet, but I know this development routine easily gives even development on regular sheet film. The one thing that does pop out immediately is the huge amount of fog it creates in comparison with pyrocat. That's kind of unfortunate as I don't like having to print through all that unnecessary density. It really oxidizes like mad, this stuff.

[IanBarber]

The 35mm film I did in 510 as far as I remember also didn't show any trouble, but I just put that down to 35mm simply not being very prone to it due to the physical properties of the film and reels, and the usual agitation patterns that are apparently mostly sufficient.

If memory serves Sandy King did at the time when Pyrocat was brand new argue that he had optimized it to reduce problems with unevenness, but I may be wrong. In any case, I find it somewhat easier to circumvent the issue with Pyrocat than with 510 Pyro.

Btw, because there has been some renewed discussion on 510 over the past 10 days or so, and I had the pyrogallol here anyway, I mixed a small amount of 510 a couple of days ago just to play with. So far only did some 4x5's in trays with it for carbon transfer, 1+25 for a few minutes. No unevenness as of yet, but I know this development routine easily gives even development on regular sheet film. The one thing that does pop out immediately is the huge amount of fog it creates in comparison with pyrocat. That's kind of unfortunate as I don't like having to print through all that unnecessary density. It really oxidizes like mad, this stuff.

Someone else mentioned to try tray development and although my darkroom is tiny 6 x 4 feet I could do it at a squeeze but last time I tried it with HC110 I got into a right old mess.

I put the 4x5 in a 7x5 tray but wasn't sure how to properly agitate it and whether I had to agitate it continuously or even minute.
I struggled to lift it out of the tray and in the end I took the gloves off but wouldn't dream of removing the gloves with pyro.

[Steve Sherman]

Uneven development is almost always agitation related, particularly the beginning agitation, it should be vigorous. I use PyroCat HD in the highest risk type of film development known, as you know. Intiatal agitation is almost always the culprit.

[IanBarber]

Uneven development is almost always agitation related, particularly the beginning agitation, it should be vigorous. I use PyroCat HD in the highest risk type of film development known, as you know. Intiatal agitation is almost always the culprit.

For what I call standard development with Pyro 1+1+100 I agitate for the first 30 seconds and then 5 inversion every minute.
Steve, are you suggesting that this first 30 seconds is crucial and it this period that should be quite vigorous.

[Alan9940]

I put the 4x5 in a 7x5 tray but wasn't sure how to properly agitate it and whether I had to agitate it continuously or even minute.
I struggled to lift it out of the tray and in the end I took the gloves off but wouldn't dream of removing the gloves with pyro.

I was taught to always use one size larger trays--that is, 8x10 for 4x5. This alone could help with any agitation issue and would certainly make doing the agitation easier.

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Ian, how many 4x5 sheets are you developing at a time in the Stearman tank? As an alternative to Stearman, you can try the Taco method (http://photo-reactive.blogspot.com/2011/07/taco-method.html) in a day light development tank like Paterson. Up to four sheets can be processed at a time using a two reel Patterson tank as as shown here (https://youtu.be/hx3IogCmSmA?t=381). Use 600ml of working solution with the two reel Paterson tank. Two bands per sheet usually prevents any damage due to sharp corners in my experience. An even better idea is this (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?30099-New-idea-Inexpensive-daylight-Softube-processing-of-sheet-film).

[Jim Noel]

I am not familiar with the Stearman tank, but I do know that the most commonly used wetting agent will build up in the grooves of reels, and become a catalyst thus producing overdeveloped edges.
This problem was prevalent when I began teaching at the college. I solved it by scrubbing the reels with a toothbrush then washing them in my home dishwasher w/o detergent.
The old wetting agent was replaced with LFN and the problem never reappeared.

[Alan9940]

I am not familiar with the Stearman tank, but I do know that the most commonly used wetting agent will build up in the grooves of reels, and become a catalyst thus producing overdeveloped edges.

I've never used wetting agent in any of my tanks and, in the past, have experienced uneven development; especially along an edge. For me, the solution was arriving at an agitation technique that eliminated these issues.

[Tin Can]

Riddle me this

In a box, the waves bounce off the edges, which is double work/wash

as compared to once midstream

I do use a gas burst box

but I dump the hangers down into the solution quickly

and immediately run gas bubbles for 1 minute

then 10 seconds per minute

Prints and ULF negs are pushed quickly into oversize tray fluid, to make it ALL WET

asap

[Bernice Loui]

Began using PMK "pyro" developers soon after the publication of Gordon Hutchings book on Pyro developers in the later 1990's. Initially used PMK with 4x5 nikkor tank. This often produced uneven pyro stains on the negative and very uneven stains specially along the center spiral support of the Nikkor reel. Gave up on using the 4x5 nikkor tank with pyro developers.

Ended up using the 5x7 Jobo expert drum back filled with nitrogen with modest rotation speeds. This combo resulted in the most even pyro staining on the negative. It is possible the ribbing in side these tanks cause uneven fluid flow across the negative or pyro developer stagnation in specific areas which results in uneven pyro staining on the negative. Pyro developers depend on essentially even distribution and developer action across the negative during the development process to achieve uniform staining over the entire negative area.


Bernice

[IanBarber]

I am going to do another test and this time change the initial agitation a bit. It that doesn't work then I might have to learn tray processing

[Bernice Loui]

Tray developing with Pyro developers can work good (been there, done this). Be extremely careful as pyro is more toxic than common developers. Wear gloves and make sure the work area is well ventilated.


Bernice



I am going to do another test and this time change the initial agitation a bit. It that doesn't work then I might have to learn tray processing

[JohnF]

As well as the uneven development, I find linear ‘deposits’ on the non-emulsion side of the negative that correspond to the vertical struts in the negative holder in the Stearman tank. I was using 510 Pyro 1:200 with continuous agitation for 1 minute, then 1 minute every 7 minutes, and ending development at 25 minutes. This with FP4+

[koraks]

make sure the work area is well ventilated.

While this is in general of course always good advice, there's as far as I know no reason why ventilation requirements would be any more strict for pyro developers than for other darkroom chemistry. Pyro compounds are not volatile, they reside in a watery solution and hence there's no particular risk of dangerous volatile compounds.
Acetic acid stop bath is in fact far more troublesome in this respect.

Gloves are certainly a good idea and nitrile is probably a better choice than latex. In fact in general I wouldn't recommend latex gloves if only because they basically suck in just about every way imaginable.

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

While this is in general of course always good advice, there's as far as I know no reason why ventilation requirements would be any more strict for pyro developers than for other darkroom chemistry. Pyro compounds are not volatile, they reside in a watery solution and hence there's no particular risk of dangerous volatile compounds.


Old timers used to mix Pyro developers fresh every time from ingredients. Pyro dust can be harmful if inhaled.

[Alan9940]

As well as the uneven development, I find linear ‘deposits’ on the non-emulsion side of the negative that correspond to the vertical struts in the negative holder in the Stearman tank. I was using 510 Pyro 1:200 with continuous agitation for 1 minute, then 1 minute every 7 minutes, and ending development at 25 minutes. This with FP4+

I've used 3 different versions of the Stearman tank holders and found this to be an issue with certain developers and certain films: not all, though. The problem for me was the randomness of these artifacts which lead me to give up on the Stearman tank.

[Alan9940]

Old timers used to mix Pyro developers fresh every time from ingredients. Pyro dust can be harmful if inhaled.

No one should underestimate the dust of pyro chemicals...IMO, all create quite a bit of dust. This is why I wear full protective gear and mix the pyro outside on calm days.

[interneg]

All these problems could be solved by implementing process controls, using regular trays and not using badly designed (and over-hyped) developers from a succession of not-photochemists.

[Steve Sherman]

A longer initial agitation for sure, the added density that results can easily be compensated for later in dev. stage after uniformity has been established. Also, with the EMA process, I have found the inversion method to yield more edge unevenness than a simple rolling agitation with change of direction every 20-30 seconds. Good luck

[Steve Sherman]

For what I call standard development with Pyro 1+1+100 I agitate for the first 30 seconds and then 5 inversion every minute.
Steve, are you suggesting that this first 30 seconds is crucial and it this period that should be quite vigorous.

A longer initial agitation for sure, the added density that results can easily be compensated for later in dev. stage after uniformity has been established. Also, with the EMA process, I have found the inversion method to yield more edge unevenness than a simple rolling agitation with change of direction every 20-30 seconds. Good luck

[IanBarber]

Update:
I changed the way I agitate in the SP-445, took the advice of Steve Sherman and others and I am pleased to say that the last 4 sheets developed in Pyrocat HD are 100% better.
I haven't tried the 510 Pyro yet but mainly because I am not all that struck on that developer.

Thanks for all advice.

[Steve Sherman]

Update:
I changed the way I agitate in the SP-445, took the advice of Steve Sherman and others and I am pleased to say that the last 4 sheets developed in Pyrocat HD are 100% better.
I haven't tried the 510 Pyro yet but mainly because I am not all that struck on that developer.

Thanks for all advice.

Excellent, make photographs !!!