Do you consider the ground glass a lens' accessory? Problem and recommendation.

[Ig Nacio]

Hi,

Good day : )!!!

We talk quite a bit about lenses, what is quite fantastic,
but I wondered if you consider the ground glass a lens'
accessory and perhaps your lens' 'best friend' ; )!!!

I took a picture of a relative and his wife the other day.
I had set up the camera before the shot. My camera is a
Horseman 45FA camera. As I was fine-tuning the focus
with them in front of me, my eyes started to hurt quite a bit.
I had a 135mm. lens on the camera and the camera still has
the original Horseman groundglass, (or at least, it reads
Horseman on the ground glass).

I noticed that the ground glass is not that bright. Actually,
All this time before shooting my relatives, it was usually easier and
less strenuous for me to shoot anything, but people. I also
obviously had a bit more time to focus when previously shooting
buildings, landscapes and street sceneries, and not people.

After taking the planned two shots of my relatives, my eyes hurt
more and it really dawned on me that my lens 'best friend' was
perhaps the ground glass and that I should consider getting a
new one.

Some time ago, I spotted this one. They advertise themselves as being
very good. Do you agree, or would you recommend another alternative?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283322418717

Is your lens' 'best friend' the ground glass ; )!!!?? How do you do when
shooting people?

Thank you in advance, kind regards,

Ig

P.S. My friend just got a field camera, a used camera like mine, and his
ground glass is far brighter than mine.

[mhayashi]

i have never used an eTone fresnel lens, so I can’t comment on that.
I use a Maxwell optics wide angle Fresnel way back bought 25 years ago or so, optimized for 75mm and the normal arca fresnel.
Maxwell Fresnel is really good and the brightest I have used in past.

[Jim Noel]

During the past 80+ years that I have used large format cameras, I have had a large variety. I have used them with an even larger variety of lenses including an f18 Protar cell. The only time I thought the glass was dim, about 12 years ago, I went for my annual checkup by the ophthalmologist. He found my cataracts needed to be removed. Quickly I was back to having no problem with dim ground glasses on any camera.
The moral of this story is - annual checkups by an ophthalmologist make life brighter.

[jnantz]

I use a toyo monocle hood on every camera I own. not expensive, and works great./ as a matter of fact I've been attempting to sell my toyo for like a decade and now realize its probably because I'm not including the monocle that no one is buying it.

[Ig Nacio]

Hi,

Thank you for your messages : )!!!

I'll take a look at the Maxwell Optics fresnel and the Toyo Hood.

I'll definitely go to see the oftalmologist.

I'll let you know how I do.

Thank you again, kind regards!

[Bernice Loui]

Another consideration. Possible viewing the upside down/reversed ground glass image could be causing the eye/brain-mind fatigue. This can happen due to the image processing in the mind/brain needed to unravel the GG image that is not the way images are usually presented.

Having been at this LF view camera stuff for decades, the upside down/reversed and at times dim GG image is not an issue in any way. This is a learned response and takes a significant amount of time, practice and more to adjust to the way of a view camera.


Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

Huh? I thought that was the way the world actually looks? A couple months ago a teenage girl and her mother encountered me on the trail with the 8x10 set up, and the girl asked if she could look through the ground glass. Then she remarked that everything was upside-down, and if there was some app built into the camera that changed that. I said, no, but then you just turn the picture rightside-up when it's hung on the wall. The thought that things can be changed non-digitally was a revelation to her. Different generation.

But I've never liked fresnel brightening screens myself for LF use. What is a lot more important is the correct grind on the glass itself. Too fine a grind, and you potentially get a hot spot. And getting back to practical solutions like simply hanging a picture the right orientation : a super top-secret aid to dim groundglass composition and focus : wear dark sunglasses until you're under the darkcloth, so your eyes will be pre-adjusted to the dimmer illumination.

In this age of computer screens and habitual cell phone usage, the presence of cataracts is now a middle age epidemic, and not just an old age issue. My incipient cataracts in one eye are way over at the edge of my peripheral vision; and by routinely wearing sunglasses outdoors or even indoors if brightly lit, and by use of tinted computer glasses, and low screen screen brightness, the odds are good that this won't become a serious issue until my late 80's or so, when the surgical procedure might be needed. But, the mere usage of these devices can induce quite a bit of eyestrain that makes acute focus difficult. I don't need to use computers anything like I did before I retired; but it's still amazing just how better I see, and how much less eye fatigue I have, when I've been totally away from screens (computer, phone, TV) for several days in a row.

[Greg]

Very subjective opinion here... The only time I like to use a fresnel lens is when I am using a reflex finder. The only cameras that I have a reflex finder for are my 4x5 Sinar X and Norma. Years ago I tried to replace a very scratched OEM 4x5 Sinar fresnel with generic brand fresnels, but none of them were as good as the OEM Sinar fresnel. For one "bargain" 4x5 fresnel that I purchased, I swear that it was cut from a hand holdable reading fresnel... very bright image BUT it had very coarse fresnel lenses and proved to be hard to focus even though its image was exceptionally bright. On my larger format cameras I have tried to use fresnels with but just prefer to use the plain GG. I've bought several generic ground glasses over the years and they varied greatly in brightness. Unfortunately no way of knowing how bright the GG is until you install it into your camera. OEM Chamonix and Sinar (post Norma) ground glasses I have always found to be great of great quality and bright. Knowing the exact dimensions of a replacement GG is essential. One replacement 11x14 GG was 1/8" longer than described and probably only about 1/64" too large to fit in the back of my camera Burke & James view camera... I accidentally broke it when trying to install it (very easy to do, trust me on that).

[Bernice Loui]

Fresnel lens with ground glass as a GG image brightener.... Meh.

Back in the early mid-1980's with the first view camera, a Sinar F with reflex viewer and Sinar fresnel. Initially this set up seemed good as it was easy to use and similar to using a medium format reflex camera with normal to longer focal length lenses. The ability to unravel the upside down, reversed and dim GG image has not been developed yet.. Making and learning to deal with the GG image was the source of much frustration and desperation for a solution. From aftermarket GG offerings that promised a "brighter" image to add on fresnel lenses that also promised a "brighter" GG image..

Fresnel add ons do not work well at all with wide angle lenses. More often than not, a double image occurs between the GG and fresnel lens causing far more GG image viewing difficulties than the fresnel could possibly solve.

Then came the belief-idea the GG viewing solution would be always use the largest full aperture lens possible. Sorta worked, until stopping the lens down at the taking aperture to assess areas in perceived focus via camera movement and such.. so much for that bright large aperture lens that appeared to ease the focus difficulty.

In the end, with much practice and passage of time, learned how to see and unravel the raw GG image.

~Ditched all Fresnel GG helpers or aftermarket "brighter" ground glass.

Turns out the best way is the OEM Sinar ground glass or GG of similar quality with no GG brightener add-ons and a GOOD dark cloth or similar viewing aid.

Allowing eyes to adjust to the GG image under a good dark cloth or similar viewing aid helps lots. Regardless, this is a learned skill and it simply takes the learning process involved to make it happen.

As for viewing wide angle lens images on the GG, better way to assess the image at the edges of the GG is a tilting or a tilt-able GG loupe. This becomes important when significant camera movements are applied with a wide angle lens with the assessment of image focus quality stopped down, camera movements applied and all.. before making the film image exposure.


Bernice

[ridax]

I was visually comparing some very similar (and all excellent) lenses' out of focus rendition at f/32 using a very high quality chemically-etched ground glass. That was a tricky task; I checked and rechecked the images for hours and got a terrible pain in my eyes. I was using a 16-mm movie projector lens as my magnifier. Then when the eye pain was too much to endure, I put the projector lens aside and took my 7x Peak loupe from a drawer. ALL THE EYE PAIN WAS IMMEDIATELY GONE.

I had just obtained that 7x Peak on occasion; a fellow photographer wanted to buy a camera lens from me but didn't have enough money at hand and offered the loupe for exchange. I accepted the offer, compared the beast to the other magnifiers I had and thought it was quite nice but not much better than the others except in its field of view which wasn't (and isn't) too important for me. In fact, my 16-mm projector lens makes about the same magnification. It allows me to focus with exactly the same accuracy as the high-end Peak. It's dirt cheap and pretty compact and easy to handle. But with practice, I found one difference. It is the only but a vital difference: the projector lens puts a great strain on my eyes, and the Peak puts none.

I now use only the Peak. Its only drawback is its large diameter that gets in the way when I try to tilt the magnifier at the edges of the ground glass to point it at a wide-angle taking lens.

[Drew Wiley]

Yep. That 7X Peak is my favorite GG loupe. It was also sold re-branded under Horseman and Nikon labels.

[Bernice Loui]

The Horseman version.. This one has been used for decades..
229604

Tried MANY GG loupe/magnifiers, this 7x simply works as it should..


Bernice




Yep. That 7X Peak is my favorite GG loupe. It was also sold re-branded under Horseman and Nikon labels.

[ic-racer]

the camera and the camera still has
the original Horseman groundglass, (or at least, it reads
Horseman on the ground glass).

Horseman FA originally came with a plastic ground glass/fresnel combination screen with the "Horseman" name in the lower right. Over that was a clear glass with framing marks. Did you buy your camera new?

[ic-racer]

the camera and the camera still has
the original Horseman groundglass, (or at least, it reads
Horseman on the ground glass).

Horseman FA originally came with a plastic ground glass/fresnel combination screen with the "Horseman" name in the lower right. Over that was a clear glass with framing marks. Did you buy your camera new?

[Ig Nacio]

Hi,

Thank you for your messages : )!!!

Yes my dark cloth could be better. I mean a washed purple t-shirt is quite comfortable, but perhaps not the best
option. I use it, because it is just too hot and humid around here. I'll be getting help at a shop that makes
curtains. Hopefully, I'll come up with them with a better solution.

Yes, my loupe is not a professional loupe. It is actually a cheap loupe. I bought from B&H. It is this product:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1097624-REG/carson_lo_10_lumiloupe_plus_10_5x_focusing.html

Perhaps I shouldn't get a Carson loupe at all. They also offer this one:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/437227-REG/Carson_LL_10_LL_10_LumiLoupe_Craft_Loupe.html

Both of the above loupes are relatively cheap, compared to the more professional ones that I see you guys
are using.

It is two years more less since I am using a Horseman 45FA. The camera was used. I didn't get it new.
I have seen other field cameras from Toyo and they seem to have a bettter fresnel-groundglass combination.
My groundglass does not seem to have, or have had any fresnel-groundglass combination at all. It looks just
like a groundglass without fresnel. It is not dark, but as opposed to the bright Toyo ones, this one on the
camera, looks quite dim. The Horseman name is in the lower right, but as mentioned before it is unfortunately
not bright. Perhaps it is a different groundglass from Horseman. This is perhaps a groundglass, but without
the fresnel, as you may have meant.

As I was looking again the B&H site to get the links to the Carson loupes, I was able to see that Toyo still sells
a groundglass. However it is for Toyo View and not Toyo Field. I don't know if it would fit the Horseman 45FA
and if it will be bright:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/61089-REG/Toyo_View_180_814_4x5_Groundglass_Focusing_Screen.html

Thank you again, kind regards!

[Tin Can]

Horseman was very confused about GG and Fresnel

I have all kinds of factory idiocy

You need to gaff tape that clear skirt, it's for viewing slides

I have real bad eyes, I bought the best loupe I could, it is out of production...

[Bernice Loui]

Skimping on ground glass image viewing aids is not a good idea at all. The only view between view camera lens to sheet film in the film holder is the ground glass image. How the ground glass image is assessed, viewed based on it's qualities pretty much sets what ends up on film. That said, first item of prime importance is the combo of ground glass magnifier/loupe and dark cloth. Both seemingly simply and "irrelevant" accessories, without them using a view camera to create the image on film becomes a lot less possible.

Clear bottom loupes/magnifiers allow image light on the ground glass to escape and stray ambient light to dilute the image light from the ground glass. Use a closed bottom loupe/magnifier to view the ground glass image. Simply covering those clear bottom magnifiers with black vinyl electrical tape will improve the image produced by these clear bottom magnifiers/loupes. Alternative is to get a proper ground glass loupe/magnifier with a light tight bottom. Much is focused on lens performance and all that, far less is focused in the importance of the ground glass magnifier/loupe.

Dark cloth is a simple item yet has extreme importance in viewing the ground glass image. It is what allows the ground glass image to be viewed properly, how camera movements alter the ground glass image and what happens to the ground glass image when the lens is stopped down to the image creating lens aperture. The dark cloth should be black in the inside and ideally white on the outside to reduce heat build up in sunny outdoor conditions. Might consider of these BTZS Focus Hoods:
https://viewcamerastore.com/collections/btzs-focus-hoods

Larger full aperture lenses or "Brighter" ground glass with brightening aids like a fresnel lens are often a panacea to the realities of viewing the ground glass image instead of the proper solution.

All this might appear costly, involved, excessive or ... it really depends on the value one places on their images created, resourced applied and goals with view camera image creation.


Bernice


Hi,

Thank you for your messages : )!!!

Yes my dark cloth could be better. I mean a washed purple t-shirt is quite comfortable, but perhaps not the best
option. I use it, because it is just too hot and humid around here. I'll be getting help at a shop that makes
curtains. Hopefully, I'll come up with them with a better solution.

Yes, my loupe is not a professional loupe. It is actually a cheap loupe. I bought from B&H. It is this product:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1097624-REG/carson_lo_10_lumiloupe_plus_10_5x_focusing.html

Perhaps I shouldn't get a Carson loupe at all. They also offer this one:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/437227-REG/Carson_LL_10_LL_10_LumiLoupe_Craft_Loupe.html

Both of the above loupes are relatively cheap, compared to the more professional ones that I see you guys
are using.

It is two years more less since I am using a Horseman 45FA. The camera was used. I didn't get it new.
I have seen other field cameras from Toyo and they seem to have a bettter fresnel-groundglass combination.
My groundglass does not seem to have, or have had any fresnel-groundglass combination at all. It looks just
like a groundglass without fresnel. It is not dark, but as opposed to the bright Toyo ones, this one on the
camera, looks quite dim. The Horseman name is in the lower right, but as mentioned before it is unfortunately
not bright. Perhaps it is a different groundglass from Horseman. This is perhaps a groundglass, but without
the fresnel, as you may have meant.

As I was looking again the B&H site to get the links to the Carson loupes, I was able to see that Toyo still sells
a groundglass. However it is for Toyo View and not Toyo Field. I don't know if it would fit the Horseman 45FA
and if it will be bright:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/61089-REG/Toyo_View_180_814_4x5_Groundglass_Focusing_Screen.html

Thank you again, kind regards!

[ic-racer]

The FA's focus screen is a very fine fresnel, as fine as a screen on a 35mm camera. You can look at a reflection on the back of the screen to see the fine circular lines, otherwise the fresnel is nearly invisible during composing.