Sinar "Norma" or Sinar "Standard"?

[Eric_6227]

Hello,

I am thinking of buying a camera that I *believe* to be a Sinar "Norma". It is a 4x5 rail camera with an interchangable 8x10 back and bellows. It uses a seperate shutter that sits behind the front standard. Everything is in excellent condition.

The current owner, who bought the camera in the early 70's, calls it a Sinar "Normal" and feels sure that is the name. Is anyone familiar with this? I find plenty of info on the Norma (including this site), but nothing on a "Standard".

It seems like an ideal camera. Totally modular and appears to be quite sturdy and portable (for an 8x10 anyway). I've read the comments in the archives, but wonder if anyone can relate any experiences with the camera (positive or negative).

Thanks again!

[Austin Moore]

Hey man, Its called a NORMA and they are the best Sinars ever made, way better quality put in to those cameras then the ones they make today. I used a 4x5 one for a wile when i was just starting out and then moved on to a feild camera. But I highly recomend it an really solid camera.

Austin

[Frank Petronio]

There is an earlier Sinar than the Norma, which I think people call the "standard". The Norma has a lot of refinements but the Standard is collectiable and usable. However, I do not know the exact differences between the models, other than that the Norma has green metal components and the first version is black -- I think (not knowing 100%).

http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm has lots of Norma photos and info

This gentleman has kindly provided a scanned reference which should help in identifying if it is Norma or Standard.

http://www.king-platypus.com/sinar/norma/sinarnorma.html

I have purchased items from him and he is a good guy, less expensive than Glennview too. But Glenn is a hoot.

The behind the lens Sinar shutter is optional, easily removable, and has had several variations. It can be a useful item if it is in good condition and you have the expensive cables (not a normal cable release) and a collection of Sinar mounted barrel lenses. However most togs find it more practical to use individual shutters (Copals and Compurs). Personally I'd sell the albatros shutter on eBay.

[Frank Petronio]

Oh, and I think Sinar Normas are the best camera Sinar ever made, and they are at least as good as anything ever made by any other company. You can adjust the focusing gearing, clean them, interchange widely avaialable parts, and build whatever you need. Only Linhof and Arca-Swiss are in the same league, and Sinar has the advantage of having more parts on the market (lower prices, easier to find stuff).

Pair it with the matching Sinar pan tilt head on a heavy 4 or 5 series Gitzo and you have a world class outfit for peanuts.

[Eric_6227]

Thanks Austin and Frank. I took a look at the Norma brochure on http://www.king-platypus.com/sinar/norma/sinarnorma.html, and it calls the camera a "standard", which appears to be the basic model, as oppossed to the "expert" which included an extended bellows and wide angle bellows. So maybe it's just the feature package for the Norma. That brochure is the same one that comes with the camera (at least, the cover is the same), and the camera is olive green. So I'm pretty sure it's a Norma.

[tor kviljo]

I use the norma 5x7 and also have a 4x5 changing set for it. An incredible camera, not its construction - being a standard u-frame design save for the base tilt (but not yaw free) and having rather standard features, but the excellent workmanship/fitting + uncommon high quality of material used in important details. You will se that tightening-handles for swing & shift is made off stainelss steel, main tilt rod of black steel, focussing collar of stainless steel - this camera is very perfect for anyone planning to thug it around in a less than perfect backpack - as I do.... (for transport: slide both standards off rail with bellows, lens & back in place , secure this sandwich with rubber-band in big bubble-wrap envelope, rail standing alongside, rail-mount-block left on tripod - works even with the 15$$ backpack from down the street...). Workmanship is, in my opinion, only surpassed in the Linhof Bi Kardan, which is quite a bit more advanced in features but still an u-frame design, dissappeared quite fast as it were introduced at about the same time (around 1970) as the reveloutionary Sinar P, which took control of the high-end LF market. The later Linhof TL/GTL supercameras never managed to rival the P/P2 reign). The Sinar Norma being close to 100% integrated in the current & very widespread Sinar LF - system, makes the Norma a much more sensible choice for the USER of LF, while the Bi Kardan is the jewel for anyone admiring mechanical perfection and not needing to try to find a rail-extencion for it.... Good luck with the best user-monorail out there....(my opinion only, stay cool).

[Eric_6227]

Thanks Tor. I really like the camera, especially the modularity and build quality. I'm glad to hear it can be transported easily. I'm not sure if it's OK to post queries on prices here, but the seller is asking $1,500 for the package, which includes 4x5 and 8x10 backs, original cases, Sinar shutter, 2 barrel lenses 8x10 film holders, developing tank and hangers, original cases, manulas, etc. It's all in excellent plus condition. Is there anything else I should consider in this same price range? Such as some of the other cameras you mentioned? I am looking for something to use around town, for short hikes, and for portraits. Thanks again.

[Scott Davis]

That sounds like a fantastic price for that kit. REAL hard to do better.

[tor kviljo]

agree with scott, very hard to go wrong on that set, even when not knowing what glass is in the set... the 8x10 Sinar Norma backs is about the most stable 8x10 I have seen on any monorail, and is more stable than fitting a 8x10 conversion kit to a Sinar P standard bearer (I have used both). This is due to Sinar giving the Norma 8x10 back an extra long rail-sleeve, long focussing track and omitting rear rise&fall in favor of increase stability. If You want to have a 8x10 monorail which CAN be carried around, and is unlikely to be damaged in the backpack, I guess you have found it...

[Daniel Unkefer]

Sinar Norma is the camera itself. Sinar Standard is the basic setup, Sinar Expert is the camera, souped up. That's about it.

-Dan, have been interested in Sinar Normas for twenty-five years.

[Steve Hamley]

The Norma is also one of the best looking cameras ever made. I have a wallpaper of the 5x7 with the tapered bellows, and people who don't even know it is a camera like it.

The Linhof Bi-Kardan is also a beautifully crafted camera of roughly the same era.

One caveat, the Norma has only base tilts while the Linhof Bi (as it's name implies) has both base and center tilts.

I had a 5x7 Norma at one time and have occasional regrets for selling it.

Steve

[Richard Wasserman]

As long as this thread has been resurrected, I'll jump in too. A 4x5 Norma is my main camera. I shoot primarily in urban settings and use a Sherpa Cart to transport it and all its associated gear including lenses from 65mm to 450mm. It makes me smile every time I use it. It is beautiful to look at, extremely smooth, very precise, versatile, and sturdy. A great camera.

[coisasdavida]

Sinar Norma is the camera itself. Sinar Standard is the basic setup, Sinar Expert is the camera, souped up. That's about it.

-Dan, have been interested in Sinar Normas for twenty-five years.


Does the presence or absence of locking focusing knobs has anything to do with that?

[William Whitaker]

My understanding is that earlier versions had locking focus knobs; later versions did not.

[Drew Wiley]

I feel like an idiot for passing up a couple of clean 5X7 Normas. If I was younger this would
be a dream system for me. But I do most of my work with an 8x10 folder, followed by a
beautiful 4x5 Norma, which fits into my backpack a lot easier than any 5x7 monorail would.
The Normas underwent subtle modifications over time. I'm no expert in the system, but it
seems to interchange with all the later F and P style components. The tapered bellows are
wonderful.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Does the presence or absence of locking focusing knobs has anything to do with that?

Early Normas (I just finished restoring a complete one) did not have the focus-locking cam on the focus locking knobs. This is a refinement that came along in the later model Norma. I also have several examples of the later ones.

[coisasdavida]

Thanks!

[Robert H]

Wonderful cameras ! 108837

[Tin Can]

Another thread that does not quite explain the differences in Sinar Norma iterations, but very interesting discussion back to 2006.

One of my questions is, How are Norma format changes from 4X5 to 5X7 to 8X10 effected?

Is the frame changed on the standard/bearer or do you change the whole rear format set? Bellows do vary of course.

I do know there is a 5X7 to 4X5 format change back GG that fits only a 5X7 frame.

I ask as the P 8X10 had a heavy duty rear standard/bearer for 8X10 and was highly recommended as it was designed for heavier loads of 8X10. And had 3 sets of markings for 3 formats.

[Daniel Unkefer]

4x5 and 5x7 use the same standard bearer. Unscrew the black knob and it easily and safely comes apart. Then you can interchange 4x5 and 5x7 parts. 8x10 Back is dedicated to 8x10. If you want 4x5 you can buy just the 4x5 back and interchange it with the 5x7 back, on the standard bearer.

Peruse the catalog. Understand how massive the number of accessories you can get for this thing. I have about 80 percent of it in my studio. Awesome modular system. Nobody even close to being close.

And Yes it is on permanent display at the Museum of Modern Art in NYC, as an Industrial Design Object. A thing of beauty built for a machinist!

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/4231/35108770321_9511d16f70_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VurCfe)DSC05783 (https://flic.kr/p/VurCfe) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


Here's my 5x7 Norma. Shown with the big 360mm Schneider Symmar with Norma automation which came from the Sinar factory. This setup is wicked quick to operate.

[Tin Can]

Finding a catalog is not easy. Not found one yet.

Sinar website is incomplete. A short history is interesting, https://sinar.swiss/unternehmen/

[Pere Casals]

Daniel this is an amazing setup !!!!

5x7" is an amazing format, (IMHO the best LF format) and the Symmar is a formidable lens. The 620 conversion is a fantastic choice: It is a relatively "lightweight" 600, very good in the center, and the center of a 0.5m circle covers well your format. Also the rear alone has only 2 groups, four surfaces, so potentially you have a low flare for a single coated lens. The single element that may be added is a compendium front shade, as the insanely big illumination circle may throw a lot of light in the bellows.

Also the tripod head is sound, the rail allows to remove a shaft in the head...

This is luxurious !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ZCEXWdIMg&t=4s

[Daniel Unkefer]

Here's one. Others are out there.

https://www.largeformatcameras.net/index.php?/category/152&lang=en_GB
This one is from 1969

They are available on Ebay from time to time; Not expensive and worth every penny


In the Youtube AA is using a 5x7 Norma with a 4x5 reducing back. He said the larger bellows reduced bellows flare

[Tin Can]

Thanks Daniel! I have that manual. You related a Catalog, which would be good to see also.

I have read that some do prefer a reducing back on a larger format for better movements.


Here's one. Others are out there.

https://www.largeformatcameras.net/index.php?/category/152&lang=en_GB
This one is from 1969

They are available on Ebay from time to time; Not expensive and worth every penny


In the Youtube AA is using a 5x7 Norma with a 4x5 reducing back. He said the larger bellows reduced bellows flare

[Daniel Unkefer]

Yes I got my copy from Glenn Evans. I'll look around but getting busy today. Neighborhood 4th of July Party :)

[Daniel Unkefer]

There's this brochure, lovely stuff

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00556/00556.pdf

I'll look some more when I have time :)

[Greg]

Finding a catalog is not easy. Not found one yet.

Was told over the years several times that the Linhof magazine Grossbild Technik (sp?) once had an article or ad that covered the Norma system but never found it, if it did indeed exist. Since the late 1970s have been looking for info on Sinar Normas and the closest I've come has been to acquire an original August 1956 ring bound, hard black cover Sinar IB. Actually has 20 small original B&W fiber prints in it. Shows a couple of common accessories in use, but I know a lot more of them were offered for the Norma system. Lens & Repro or the other LF store in NYC, whose name I can't recall, had some vintage sales literature but with the closing of both stores who knows what became of the papers. John Craig of Torrington CT was once a dealer of photo literature. Contacted him maybe in the 1990s, and he told me that he had never come across any Norma literature. I've given up on locating any Norma literature and now just enjoy using the system.

[Tin Can]

Go have some fun!


Yes I got my copy from Glenn Evans. I'll look around but getting busy today. Neighborhood 4th of July Party :)

[Daniel Unkefer]

There's this brochure, lovely stuff

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00556/00556.pdf

I'll look some more when I have time :)


Have you seen this Norma brochure before? ^^

[Tin Can]

No!

Thank you!

Only a couple pics from it.

Now that definetly shows Norma off!

I collect some camera catalogs. Such as 50's Linhof Kardan Color, the big stuff.



Have you seen this Norma brochure before? ^^

[Jac@stafford.net]

Leica owns Sinar. We do not need to be miniature format enthusiasts to hope for wonderful outcomes.

[Tin Can]

https://sinar.swiss/company/#!/0

2013
The merger with Leica opens up promising prospects for Sinar. The competence of the two companies enables pioneering new developments, which characterize the market and the brand.

Based in Zurich and with a local production, Sinar is and remains a Swiss product. Customers benefit from the worldwide established service and support.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Daniel this is an amazing setup !!!! 5x7" is an amazing format, (IMHO the best LF format) and the Symmar is a formidable lens. The 620 conversion is a fantastic choice: It is a relatively "lightweight" 600, very good in the center, and the center of a 0.5m circle covers well your format. Also the rear alone has only 2 groups, four surfaces, so potentially you have a low flare for a single coated lens. The single element that may be added is a compendium front shade, as the insanely big illumination circle may throw a lot of light in the bellows. Also the tripod head is sound, the rail allows to remove a shaft in the head...
This is luxurious !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ZCEXWdIMg&t=4s

Thanks Pere!

I discovered the Norma thirty five years ago when I was doing a lot of commercial Architectural Photography. I started with the Alpina, then the F+. It was not a great experience. Then I bought my first Norma :)

The list of Norma users in the genre is like a "who's-who" of Architectural Specialists. As you might well expect.

[Jac@stafford.net]

https://sinar.swiss/company/#!/0

2013
The merger with Leica opens up promising prospects for Sinar. The competence of the two companies enables pioneering new developments, which characterize the market and the brand.

Based in Zurich and with a local production, Sinar is and remains a Swiss product. Customers benefit from the worldwide established service and support.

Service and support for what? Cadavers?

My primitive brain responds, "So what does that mean in our reality? What is Leica/Sinar doing other than futile maintenance of the diminishing status quo of a dying format and medium."

[Daniel Unkefer]

I had great experiences with Larry in the Service Department. Helped with Broncolor and Norma. Wonder if he's still around?

[Drew Wiley]

Sinar is no cadaver. It is still alive and making further improvements for studio use. They pioneered digital backs and now make scaled down, even finer-geared cameras specially for them. Those small receptors are fussier to focus than LF film, though I have a friend who just still uses his standard P cameras for digi backs. There is a lot of money to be made in detailed food photography and catalog photography - tabletop applications where a high degree of control is important, which warrants investment in this kind of gear. Now that most steps go straight from in-camera to pre-press right there at a workstation a few feet away, your whole Art Dept is no longer needed; so it's easy to afford a new fancy camera now and then due to drastically decreased payroll. Ain't automation a wonderful thing? Ordinary digi MF camera options just don't do tabletop work as well, including dinner-table shots, though they've taken over certain other studio applications.

[Rick Rosen]

Following along in this thread has been very enjoyable for me. I gave seminars for Sinar from 1972-1982. I was also the large format instructor at many workshops, including my own. I was on the faculty of the AA workshops for about 8 years until his death in 1984. I probably can answer most questions anyone has about Sinar and the evolution of the company. The original Sinar was the NORMA (I can't recall what the letters stood for) the name SINAR is derived from "Still, Industrial, Nature, Architectural and Reproduction photography". The Koch family founded the company and the ownership passed from father to son through generations. Each man was named Karl Hans or Hans Karl. They flipped back and forth with each generation. In around 1968 Karl Hans was considering retirement with the resulting closure of the company but he convinced his son Hans Karl to move back from the United States and take it over. He was the man that ran the company when I was there. Hans Karl was not a photographer like his previous family members, he was an engineer. He designed the Sinar P (Perfection) which was announced in 1970. The camera carried the advantages of the Norma as for the modular design concept and added many new features like asymmetric tilts and swings as opposed to the traditional center or base tilts. Hans Karl, being an engineer, designed the camera and modules with no real world photography experience. If you followed the step by step process as he devised the camera produced excellent results. But I rarely knew a photographer that did that, choosing instead to manually adjust the settings.

A few years before I was employed by Sinar or met AA, Hans Karl visited AA in Carmel to show him his new Sinar P. He demonstrated the manner in which the camera would produce the final image with the perfection of an engineer's mindset. AA was not impressed and told him that any photographer that knew how to use a view camera did not need all those engineering bells and whistles. A challenge was made and AA got one of his older cameras, set up a tabletop image and it was "ready set go" to see who could pull a Polaroid first. While Hans Karl was still setting with his calculators in the P AA was holding a finished, perfectly sharp Polaroid. Every time I saw Hans Karl once he knew that I was involved with AA he would shake his head and ask me why this man could not see the advantages of his new Sinar P.

A few years later Hans Karl designed the electronic shutter and behind the lens metering system. There had been mechanical versions of a shutter and a metering back previously but in typical engineering fashion Hans Karl designed an electronic system that not only metered for exposure but corrected for reciprocity. He used the published data from all the film manufacturers to design into the meter the reciprocity failure curves for each film. It worked pretty well but not perfectly, which frustrated Hans Karl. He found that not every batch of manufactured film, matched their reciprocity data perfectly. One afternoon a friend of mine at Polaroid got a phone call from a very frustrated Hans Karl demanding to know why their Type 58 Color film did not perfectly follow their published reciprocity data.

AA and I always chuckled a bit whenever Sinar was mentioned although he did let me teach large format at his workshops using a Sinar F+ and if you look in his book "The Camera" you will see a Sinar P Expert Kit, which was mine and put here by AA out of respect for me. I got into an argument with Hans Karl one day when he asked me if I had enough Sinar literature to take to the workshops. I told him I wasn't taking any literature and he arrogantly asked me why was I going if not as a Sinar representative? He got even more hostile when I told him that I had asked AA not to mention to any students that I was employed by Sinar but rather to just introduce me as a photographer that was here to help them learn large format. I tried explaining to Hans Karl that I would benefit Sinar much more when I pulled my Sinar F+ out to use it in my lessons rather than if I was just a salesman for the company. I told him AA wanted me there in spite of the fact that I was employed by Sinar. His response was "Ansel Adams wants Sinar at his workshops because it's the finest view camera in the world and that had nothing to do with me". He simply could not understand that concept. He then terminated my employment a few months later. Shortly thereafter he called AA and told him I was no longer representing Sinar (AA already knew that) but he would like to send another Sinar employee to the workshops in my place. AA angrily responded with "Rick is coming back and he can bring whatever G-D camera he wants!" and hung up.

With the exception that I found myself suddenly unemployed those were fun days.

[Tin Can]

Oops! Sorry for the double post. Can someone show me how to delete the first post, thanks.

Just look at you post and underneath there is an edit option. Click it, then find the delete option.

Please don't delete both your interesting posts!

[Peter De Smidt]

Rick, those are great stories, other than the being fired, of course! I do like Sinar Ps, except for the weight and bulk.

[Rick Rosen]

Thank you

[Rick Rosen]

Here's a little more Sinar info for the curious.

The Sinar Alpina was designed to compete as an entry level "student" camera with the Toyo "Omega View". It is just an F with a different rail and modified standards (removed the lower part) to fit that rail. It never was very popular. It was designed for the American market only and Sinar originally did not want their name attached to it. Fred Picker picked it up and marketed it. He claimed that he worked closely with Sinar to design the camera which was not true. Fred had some great products, mainly the electronics designed by Horowitz, but he was also guilty of exaggerated claims in his newsletters. Around AA and his group we had a moniker for him, "Fast Freddy".