Schneider Angulon I Purchased - Is This a Problem?

[stephenmcateer]

I bought this Angulon 90mm / F6.8 on eBay a couple of days ago. [It's coming from abroad so I don't have it in my hands yet.]

Can anyone tell me if the yellowish ring on the circumference of the element is a problem? [Looks like it might be glue but I haven't seen this sort of 'Gunk' in a lens before.]

Thanks.

229133

[Jody_S]

Separation of the optical elements around the edge. Can be fixed but that looks like it's not in the optical path at shooting apertures so it should have no effect on images.

[nitroplait]

I am familiar with this golden "droplet" phenomenon from Leica viewfinders (from the late 50's early 60's).
It is normally considered early stage of separation of the canadian balsam used to cement together the optical elements of the viewfinders.
You can typically see it when looking at the edges through the viewfinder from the front, but not when looking through it the normal way.

However, I have seen the phenomenon on a number of friends Leica cameras more than 20 years ago, yet none have deteriorated further to this day, thus I suspect it is not a critical problem - if a problem at all.

[stephenmcateer]

Separation of the optical elements around the edge. Can be fixed but that looks like it's not in the optical path at shooting apertures so it should have no effect on images.

Okay thanks for that. I paid a fair price for it and want to be sure it's going to perform reasonably.

[stephenmcateer]

I am familiar with this golden "droplet" phenomenon from Leica viewfinders (from the late 50's early 60's).
It is normally considered early stage of separation of the canadian balsam used to cement together the optical elements of the viewfinders.
You can typically see it when looking at the edges through the viewfinder from the front, but not when looking through it the normal way.

However, I have seen the phenomenon on a number of friends Leica cameras more than 20 years ago, yet none have deteriorated further to this day, thus I suspect it is not a critical problem - if a problem at all.

Thanks Niels. This lens dates to about 1960 I think. If it performs okay I'll keep a hold of it.

[Bernice Loui]

Test this lens, make some images with it then decide. Back then lenses often had variations. This plus the unknowns of what happened t o this lens with the passage of time.

If this is at the very edge of the lens glass element, a black sharpiee marker could blacken-"fix" this.

Bernice

[stephenmcateer]

Test this lens, make some images with it then decide. Back then lenses often had variations. This plus the unknowns of what happened t o this lens with the passage of time.

If this is at the very edge of the lens glass element, a black sharpiee marker could blacken-"fix" this.

Bernice

Thanks Bernice. I'll test it and see what the images are like.

[domaz]

I have no idea what the melting point of Canada Balsam is, but definitely don't leave it in a hot car. I could see this getting worse very quickly in that case.

[stephenmcateer]

I have no idea what the melting point of Canada Balsam is, but definitely don't leave it in a hot car. I could see this getting worse very quickly in that case.

Thanks — hadn't thought of that.

[Neal Chaves]

It looks like someone has had that rear element out already, and not very expertly.

[Paul Ron]

schneideritis. its a common problem with these lenses. there is a blackening on the edges of the elements but its done in layers. the undercoat deteriorates n the silver/white overcoat bleeds through.

it doesnt effect the image unless its very extream.

here is something giving a general idea what it is.

http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/Schneideritis.html

[LabRat]

Angulon's have a smaller element bonded to a larger element, and there is a step that is visible that has some cement still present outside smaller element... These will turn color a little or get wavy over time... This is normal with these...

The thing to look for is if there is any discoloration, wavy rings, spectra etc through the glass which means what happened outside the element is between the glass now...

Suggestion about not keeping in a hot car is correct, and have heard to store these front-up to not allow inner element to de-center over time, but I'm not sure if this is true..

Have fun with it, but don't expect any movements with it, as they just barely cover 4X5 frame...

Steve K

[stephenmcateer]

It looks like someone has had that rear element out already, and not very expertly.

Hmm. I'll take a closer look when it gets here. As I said above, it wasn't exactly cheap, so if it doesn't perform too well I'll send it back probably.

[stephenmcateer]

schneideritis. its a common problem with these lenses. there is a blackening on the edges of the elements but its done in layers. the undercoat deteriorates n the silver/white overcoat bleeds through.

it doesnt effect the image unless its very extream.

here is something giving a general idea what it is.

http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/Schneideritis.html

Okay thanks for that. Will go and look at that page.

[stephenmcateer]

Angulon's have a smaller element bonded to a larger element, and there is a step that is visible that has some cement still present outside smaller element... These will turn color a little or get wavy over time... This is normal with these...

The thing to look for is if there is any discoloration, wavy rings, spectra etc through the glass which means what happened outside the element is between the glass now...

Suggestion about not keeping in a hot car is correct, and have heard to store these front-up to not allow inner element to de-center over time, but I'm not sure if this is true..

Have fun with it, but don't expect any movements with it, as they just barely cover 4X5 frame...

Steve K

Thanks Steve. It should be here shortly so I'll get a better look at it then. As long as I get decent photographs from it, the cement discolouration isn't a problem. It's an old lens — 1961 according to what I saw somewhere — so it's not going to be perfect I suppose.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52222915825_d9326e125b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nyL6sr)Mid 1960s Angulon Data (https://flic.kr/p/2nyL6sr) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Hi Paul,

This is mid-1960's Angulon Data. Your lens is listed here. 83 degree lens, covers 5x7, takes series 7 filters. I have four of these 120's in barrel and shutter. Great lens.

[stephenmcateer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52222915825_d9326e125b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nyL6sr)Mid 1960s Angulon Data (https://flic.kr/p/2nyL6sr) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Hi Paul,

This is mid-1960's Angulon Data. Your lens is listed here. 83 degree lens, covers 5x7, takes series 7 filters. I have four of these 120's in barrel and shutter. Great lens.

Interesting thanks. I've read elsewhere that it's a good lens, though earlier versions are of variable quality. [The one I bought is a Linhof-selected one though, which I believe means it should be good. We shall see I suppose.]

[Bernice Loui]

Trying to judge a lens by it's physical appearance or "Linhof Select" is not ideal as the visuals can bias or predispose expectations for this specific lens.
Do extensive testing on this specific sample, then decide.

Use a 165mm version of this lens in barrel on 5x7, it's been more than acceptable.


Bernice



Interesting thanks. I've read elsewhere that it's a good lens, though earlier versions are of variable quality. [The one I bought is a Linhof-selected one though, which I believe means it should be good. We shall see I suppose.]

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/21072049485_15b18af432_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/y74Lb2)makiflex #6 (https://flic.kr/p/y74Lb2) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I like this lens on a recessed board on my Makiflex Standards. Pretty wide for a 60s LF SLR. 6x9cm Makina back Foma Classic straight Microdol-X

[stephenmcateer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/21072049485_15b18af432_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/y74Lb2)makiflex #6 (https://flic.kr/p/y74Lb2) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I like this lens on a recessed board on my Makiflex Standards. Pretty wide for a 60s SLR. 6x9cm Makina back Foma Classic straight Microdol-X

Nice work.

[stephenmcateer]

Trying to judge a lens by it's physical appearance or "Linhof Select" is not ideal as the visuals can bias or predispose expectations for this specific lens.
Do extensive testing on this specific sample, then decide.

Use a 165mm version of this lens in barrel on 5x7, it's been more than acceptable.


Bernice

You make a good point — part of the reason I bought this particular one is that it looked clean in the photographs but as you say, that doesn't always mean good optical performance.

[Bernice Loui]

The 165mm Angulon has slight edge separation, optically made zilch difference.. been using this lens for years, absolutely acceptable results to date.

229159

Simply not worth worry or concern long as the image results works for your needs. Keep in mind, the absolute "best" lens alone can never produce a creative/expressive image on it's own. Lenses and all related are mere tools and means to achieve your image making goals.


Bernice



You make a good point — part of the reason I bought this particular one is that it looked clean in the photographs but as you say, that doesn't always mean good optical performance.

[stephenmcateer]

The 165mm Angulon has slight edge separation, optically made zilch difference.. been using this lens for years, absolutely acceptable results to date.

229159

Simply not worth worry or concern long as the image results works for your needs. Keep in mind, the absolute "best" lens alone can never produce a creative/expressive image on it's own. Lenses and all related are mere tools and means to achieve your image making goals.


Bernice

Thanks for the picture of your Angulon. Yes — cameras are just tools. [I do appreciate a nice camera though.]

[Daniel Unkefer]

Nice work.

Thanks stephenmcateer!

[Kevin Crisp]

I have a very late version of this lens, in a factory Copal, with a serial number in the 11's. It has a light colored very even ring around the front element at the very edge. works great.

Schneider wasn't using balsam on these.

[stephenmcateer]

I have a very late version of this lens, in a factory Copal, with a serial number in the 11's. It has a light colored very even ring around the front element at the very edge. works great.

Schneider wasn't using balsam on these.

Thanks Kevin. I received the lens an hour ago. The balsam problem actually doesn't look as bad as it did in the ad. Just waiting for a lens board for it now.

[stephenmcateer]

In case anyone's still following this thread - this lens arrived today. It's cosmetically pretty good considering how old it is. Glass is clean. Barrel is nice too.

Only problem seems to be that the shutter speed dial is pretty stiff to turn. Maybe it needs a CLA. [I also can't get the dial to go higher than 1/250 - anyone know if that's the upper limit of a Synchro Compur?]

Thanks to everyone who contributed on this thread.

[BrianShaw]

You might want to review this to determine which version of the shutter you have (I believe there are differing "eras" of Synchro Compur shutters with differing schemes for achieving the highest speed). Older shutters often had a booster spring for the highest speed, which always required additional effort to set. Sometimes it seems an unnatural amount of effort.

https://certo6.com/shutters/

Of even better... post a picture of what you have. :)

[stephenmcateer]

You might want to review this to determine which version of the shutter you have (I believe there are differing "eras" of Synchro Compur shutters with differing schemes for achieving the highest speed). Older shutters often had a booster spring for the highest speed, which always required additional effort to set. Sometimes it seems an unnatural amount of effort.

https://certo6.com/shutters/

Of even better... post a picture of what you have. :)

Thanks Brian. That was an interesting page you linked to. As you say, the shutter dial does seem to want a lot of force to go beyond 1/250. The dial is also, as I said, very stiff to turn. I think it probably needs a CLA. Question is: how much will that cost and is it worth it for this particular lens? I'll report back later.

[Jon Shiu]

If the ring is stiff to turn you can take it apart and clean and lubricate it yourself.

Jon

[Bernice Loui]

If you like this specific lens...

Consider what is your time worth during the image creation process, resourced used (film, processing, print making and..). Having and knowing that shutter is reliable-consistent will be of great value with the passage of making images and reducing wasted time, resources and more.

There is a LOT more to the initial cost of any lens or "gear".. what might appear to be a bargain could ended up costing plenty more.


Bernice



Thanks Brian. That was an interesting page you linked to. As you say, the shutter dial does seem to want a lot of force to go beyond 1/250. The dial is also, as I said, very stiff to turn. I think it probably needs a CLA. Question is: how much will that cost and is it worth it for this particular lens? I'll report back later.

[stephenmcateer]

If you like this specific lens...

Consider what is your time worth during the image creation process, resourced used (film, processing, print making and..). Having and knowing that shutter is reliable-consistent will be of great value with the passage of making images and reducing wasted time, resources and more.

There is a LOT more to the initial cost of any lens or "gear".. what might appear to be a bargain could ended up costing plenty more.


Bernice

You make a good point. The camera I intended to use this lens with also needs work [Technika V]. I may try and do it myself if it doesn't look too difficult .

[stephenmcateer]

If the ring is stiff to turn you can take it apart and clean and lubricate it yourself.

Jon

I'm not that brave Jon but thanks.