Crane Museo Silver Rag -- user report

[John Brownlow]

I finally got a 24" x 50' roll of the new Crane Museo Silver Rag paper, anticipation of which has prevented me from sleeping properly the last few nights (especially after Tim Atherton sent me a sample print). My previous standard paper has been Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, using the Piezography system for BW.

So I swapped over the black inks on the 7800 (zzzz...), loaded up the paper, and fired out a test print (BW). This image, in fact:

johnbrownlow.com/wildthings/XII/large-2.html (http://johnbrownlow.com/wildthings/XII/large-2.html)



Being something of a pessimist (or realist) when it comes to supposed photographic holy grails, I knew that the new paper would almost certainly not live up to my expectations, so prepared myself for mild to severe disappointment.

Boy, was I ever wrong.

The prints are absolutely astounding. Without handling the print I would be completely unable to tell it from an unglazed glossy silver (fibre) print, except that it looks quite a lot better than I ever got my silver prints. The depth of the blacks is mindboggling, and the perceived sharpness much, much higher than Photo Rag.

The increase in dynamic range is so huge that what was formerly a rather soft, low-contrast print on HPR is now too contrasty and I need to open up the midrange to get the most out of the paper.

I haven't tried color printing yet but for BW it completely knocked my socks off.

(This is using the Epson driver with the profile from the Crane site).

[Michael Mutmansky]

John,

What inkset are you using? Did you remove the aftermarket inks and use the Epson inks for the test?

I'm interested in hearing from anyone on how the older 4000 and 7600 perform with the paper, and also comparisons between this paper and the new Hahnemuhle and Innova papers, as I understand they are intended to be similar offerings.

---Michael

[paulr]

i'm assuming this paper surface still doesn't work with carbon pigment quadtone inks (piezo) ... any word on this?

[John Brownlow]

I am using the K3 Ultrachromes in the Epson 7800 for this. Photo black ink.

[John Brownlow]

Oh, also I am printing from an RGB file rather than using Advanced Black & White, as the proof preview is much more accurate. I add a toning curves layer to the neutral gray file with points which map

127R --> 130R
127B --> 124B

just to warm it up a tad.

[Don Wallace]

John, are you saying that prints produced on this material and using this technology are superior to prints from the traditional darkroom?

[Mike Chini]

Excellent work, John. Number 9 is my favorite...

Have you noticed any curling or warping of the paper? Any feeding problems (HPR is notorious)?

Thanks for the report!

[Michael Mutmansky]

John,

Thanks for the info. Have you used or tried QTR with your printer? It works wonders with the older K2 printers compared to the out-of-the-box B&W printing, but I have also seen the K3 printers look great in their own right for B&W.

I'm expecting to do some comparison tests on all of these papers soon, once the pipeline has filled with suitable supply. Shouldn't be long now, hopefully.

---Michael

[tim atherton]

Epson K3 photo/glossy black only. The matte blacks don't work with it (rub off, generally). Neither to the earlier K2 inks (generally bronzing and lots of gloss differential)

I've heard mixed reports about the Innova (which I think is also known as DaVinci) and this is Hahnemuhle's second try at something like this - the first was awful. The innova uses OBA's (which I generally dislike for a number of reasons) and as such is brighter/cooler. I don't know anyone who has actually seen the Hahnemuhle - it may be a while before it hits the shelves?

Oh and the Innova is an alpha cellulose base rather than cotton rag (as are some of their other papers - all of which are actually quite nice).

One nice thing about the Crane is the selling point "the paper I use is made by the same folks who make paper for the US Mint for the dollar bill...." :-)

I happen to have nearly always liked a slightly warmer/creamier base on silver gelatin paper - and the Crane fits that. The Innova has a slightly different texture and with the whiter base offers a different option - which is great.

From what I've heard from other testers (I've only tested the Crane), both papers are really close in terms of blacks, tonal range,. mid-tones, detail, "depth" etc.

FWIW - unless it happens to be a print/neg that would really sing as a platinum print, I find almost everything I've re-printed on the Crane Silver Rag makes most of my old inkjet prints (on photo rag, Epson Velvet, Crane Museo Max and goodness knows what else) look rather flat and dull - dead.

I think in the next little while we will see several new papers like his with small incremental improvements in certain areas - like a choice of surfaces for example

[John Brownlow]

Don, they are for me but that has been true with inkjet prints for a while for me, because I am not a darkroom hero. However this paper brings the 'look' much much closer to that of silver gelatin print. The Dmax is probably better and I am guessing the sharpness is as good if not slightly better. There might still be good reasons to prefer a silver print, though.

[tim atherton]

Michael - I've run it with the EpsonABW and QTR and got very nice results from both, though each with a slightly different look (and the QTR not quite as sharp). I have'nt actually tried JB's printing via the RGB colour driver

(K3 2400)

[Carl Schofield]

John,

You can get better softproofing capability with the Epson ABW mode if you make an icc profile to use for both print space (instead of NCM) and for softproofing in Photoshop. Roy Harrington's "Create-icc" script (part of the QTR download package) makes it very easy to make the icc profile. Simply select the settings you want ot use in ABW mode, print a grayscale step wedge, scan the strip with a spectrophotometer, and drop the spectro output file onto the Create-icc script droplet to generate the icc. Significant improvement in the linearity of the ABW output and perfect softproofing (both gray and color hues).

[Michael Mutmansky]

Tim,

Thanks for the info. I'm not a fan of OBA at all, so that'll probably make my preference swing to the Crane paper right off the bat. As most of my personal work is platinum or combination gum bichromate and platinum, I am used to to warmth and matte surface of the papers I use for those prints. I don't want to duplicate the prints on inkjet, but I do have a strong preference for a creamy base as opposed to the somewhat stark base of most papers with OBA's. I really liked the Agfa paper base color in their fiber based paper, for example.

I had heard of problems with the K2 inks, but I was hoping that had been dealt with as part of the refinement stages before the actual product were released to market. It sounds like that may not be so. I've a friend with a 4000, and have used his machine for printing, but if I want to use that paper, it soundsl like I'll have to think about investing in a 4800 or so.

---Michael

[John Brownlow]

I really like the base color. It is slightly warmer and slightly less white than HPR but the blacks are so much deeper that it seems whiter when you view the print.

[John Brownlow]

A few loose ends:

QTR: I haven't installed it for the 7800 because the Epson driver does such a great job at BW. Like I say I convert the BW images to RGB and then add a toning Curves layer. This produces an *extremely* accurate screen proof.

Feeding problems: I never really had them with Photo Rag except on the 1160. If anything CMSR is slightly thicker and definitely somewhat stiffer so I would imagine it would have the same issues. It is definitely somewhat 'sproingy' which can make handling a loose roll of it fun, but that's also why it doesn't curl so much.

Banding/Head Strikes:
I managed to eliminate these completely by fiddling with the Paper Configuration settings as follows:

Paper Feed Adjustment: -20 (default is 0)

Paper Thickness: 5 (default is 2)

Platen Gap: Wide (default is 'Standard')

Some people have used a longer drying time too but I didn't find that was necessary.

[neil poulsen]

It sounds like this is a good paper in its own right.

But it's interesting. When photography first emerged as an alternative to paintings, the goal was to make photographs look like paintings. Now, the goal is to make inkjets look like photographs.

History repeats itself.

[John Brownlow]

[update - color printing]

Well, I can now tell you about the color prints too. Most of the reviews say something like 'the color prints are very good but the BW is what it's all about'. However I am almost more impressed by the color prints than I am by the BW. They are *astoundingly* better than my previous HPR prints. The HPR prints aren't even in the same ballpark. Wow.

The look is very similar to dye-transfer, if that means anything. Awesome saturation, deep deep blacks and terrific sharpness.

It's really hard to find a reason why, apart from cost, I would use any other paper at this point.

One note about the Crane profile: it seems to crush the blacks a bit... possibly deliberate I guess. The shadows are not as open as they are with Piezo. I can see a custom profile being useful in some circumstances, or you can do the same thing with curves as the soft proof is very good. Nevertheless it is a very good profile, really really clean neutral colors.

The image I've been testing with is this one:

flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=61409006&size=l (http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=61409006&size=l)

[Eric Leppanen]

FYI: West Coast Imaging is now offering Silver Rag for both color and B&W prints. They also make the observation that color prints made with this paper are reminiscent of dye transfer.

www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/info/events.html (http://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/info/events.html)

[Roger Hein]

":FWIW - unless it happens to be a print/neg that would really sing as a platinum print, I find almost everything I've re-printed on the Crane Silver Rag makes most of my old inkjet prints (on photo rag, Epson Velvet, Crane Museo Max and goodness knows what else) look rather flat and dull - dead."

I'm finding a similar thing between inkjet matt prints and platinums. Platinums look 'dull' and 'soft' in sharpness compared to inkjet prints on matte papers like VFA, HPR, etc.

[tim atherton]

"I'm finding a similar thing between inkjet matt prints and platinums. Platinums look 'dull' and 'soft' in sharpness compared to inkjet prints on matte papers like VFA, HPR, etc."

hmm - I don't even want to go there + it doens't do Jorge's blood pressure any good... ;-)

[Michael Mutmansky]

It's easy to make a silver or inkjet print look snappier than a PT/PD print, but that isn't the point, is it? I hope not, as that is the last thing I would ever be trying to achieve with an inkjet print.

Jorge is a fantastic printer, and I'd hold one of his prints up to any inkjet without apologies any day, simply because there is more to a print than the specifications of dmax or other things like that. I think that's one of the things that most people don't understand about alternative process printers; the intangible becomes so important with the process. Otherwise it's just too much work for most of us to bother, unless you love the printing process, which I do especially.

It's easier to make snappier prints with higher percieved sharpness, brighter whites, blacker blacks, smoother tonality, bigger, and in every way more 'perfect'. But that doesn't mean it is better then Pt/PD, just that it is different.

---Michael

[John Brownlow]

It is easy to dial in snap, crackle and pop to inkjet prints but there's no such thing as a free lunch. Pop is usually at the expense of depth... you sacrifice the smoothness of your midtones for a decent black, or in order to retain detail in the highlights, you have to put up with mud someplace else.

depth' is one of those things that inkjet prints have never been great at. It is next to impossible to get those luscious mid grays and inky blacks that we are familiar with from the darkroom days, especially in archival materials. I guess that's what impressed me most about the new Crane paper... that it brought that sensuousness to inkjet printing.

I am a very, *very* straight printer these days... it is rare for me to do any burning or dodging or local manipulations beyond cloning out the dust... I really appreciate a paper that doesn't require me to fiddle around with highlight masks or black control layers to get a beautiful image.

[Kirk Gittings]

Thanks for the report John. This sounds very promising. I will not bother doing more tests on my 4000 as I was unimpressed with the beta tests that I did before release. I will wait for my 7800 to get here. It sounds from all reports that it is really designed for the K3 inks

[Don Bryant]

I'll put my two cents worth in hear.

When I first heard about Cranes new paper, I was a skeptical about the reports. More hype. Well for my money the paper delivers on its promise - almost.

From the prints that I inspected made with K3 inks the results were stunning. Bronzing could be observed, but, only by turning the print on it's edge. There was just a tinge of bronzing in deep shadows. I could observe no gloss differential (the print doesn't have a high gloss.)

The paper base to my eye was just slightly warmer than neutral with none of the bright white look that papers with OBA have such as many of the luster papers have. The prints were made with QTR but not with a custom icc profile, rather curves were applied.

The paper is stiff, someone on the digital B&W forum described it as being like a piece of white cardboard found in a new dres shirt, which in my mind is an accurate description. The surface does have an ever so slight texture.

I would like to compare a print made on Silver Rag with an identical image made on real silver gelatin. Aside from print sniffing though I was hard pressed to see the difference in look of Silver Rag and silver gelatin fiber glossy paper.

Silver Gelatin has an acidic surface determined by a paper pH pen, It's not clear if the base is acidic or not.

The Innova paper is supposed to be less expensive but any high quality paper won't be cheap.

The Epson UC inks used in the 4000/2200 series printers do produce a gloss differential which can be eliminated with spraying.

Finally, as far as I know archival testing hasn't been completed but I'm hoping that in the end this paper and others like are determined to have a high longevity.

My 2 cents,

[neil poulsen]

"The Epson UC inks used in the 4000/2200 series printers do produce a gloss differential which can be eliminated with spraying."

Don, what do you use as a spray?

[Roger Hein]

"It's easier to make snappier prints with higher percieved sharpness, brighter whites, blacker blacks, smoother tonality, bigger, and in every way more 'perfect'. But that doesn't mean it is better then Pt/PD, just that it is different."

I never said or meant to imply that one 'process' is any better than another. Simply that I agreed with Tim that not every subject, lighting condition, or situation suits platinum but when it does there's nothing like it.

[Don Bryant]

Neil,

>

Don, what do you use as a spray?

>

Premeir Art Print Spray. I use two light coats. BTW I've not printed on any of the Silver Rag but saw the beta paper at a local ink jet ateleir and this spray is what they use also.

Use LeCaux for protecting matt surface prints. Speaking of matt prints I also got to see samples o the Hahnemuhle <sp?> Museum Edge 350 the same day printed with Piezo K7 inks. Beautiful!

[John Brownlow]

Luminous Landscape has some notes on the new Hahnemuhle paper here:

www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/h-fap.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/h-fap.shtml)

it sounds as if it uses optical brighteners as the surface is a lot whiter than the Crane.

[Ken Allen]

I have printed several jobs, color and monochrome, on the Crane Museo Silver Rag using the Epson 7800 (K3 inks) since the rolls arrived last week.

The results really are striking. I still like the look of a gelatin surface, wether it's a monochrome paper or the old dye transfer paper, but I think the prints I make now are better looking because I have more control. I was pretty good in the darkroom, but still, there is no competition with the speed and repeatability of the ink prints.

The prints do look better when using adding the final step of Premier ARt coating.

Best,
Ken Allen
kenallenstudios.com

[Jim Galli]

Now if any of you guys who will never darken the door of a wet darkroom again have a couple boxes of AZO you want to donate to an old dinosaur that didn't get blessed with the computer nerd gene, contact me off-line. I can do marvelous things with it.

[tim atherton]

Jim

I might actually have an unopened 100sht box of gde 2 AZO somewhere... I kept meaning to get around to doing some more contact printing - but what with the two little nippers and everything else - I kinda doubt it - nearest I've got recently was some POP prints.

I'll see if I can find it

[Helen Bach]

The Innova/Da Vinci paper looks quite good too. It's smoother than Silver Rag and so doesn't have the same amount of glare. If you want paper that smells right, try the Oriental baryta paper (Graphica FB Glossy). For easy, high-quality coating I can recommend Krystal Topkote, but this does need a spare slot in a printer. It allows the 2200/4000 UC inks to work on glossy papers as well as improving the D-max of K3 inks on glossy paper.

Best,

Helen

[Kirk Gittings]

Helen,

This Krystal Topkote is new to me, and I do not understand how it would work. Do you run the print through twice, once for the ink and once for the coating? or is there a special RIP that goes along with it.

I don't think it would work with my setup, which is a 4000 and Imageprint. With glossy inks I guess the mat black ink position would be unused, but what would trigger the coating?

[Helen Bach]

Kirk,

I tried simultaneous coating (exactly like the gloss optimizer of the R800/R1800) and coating on a second pass. I found that coating on a second pass gave better results - mainly the increase in D-max. I controlled the simultaneous coating using IJC/OPM profiles.

To coat I run the print through using the Epson driver with the Watercolor media setting, 720 dpi and high speed - high speed avoids pizza wheel marks because the KT is probably still able to flow as it passes the wheels. My KT is now in what was the LM position, so I just print 255, 127, 255 with no color management. That fires only the LM ink position. It is very easy to tell if only the KT is being used because even the slightest trace of any other ink will show on the paper base.

I originally tried IJC/OPM to lay down the KT by making a profile that gave 100% of the LM channel over the whole image, but this was slow in comparison to the Epson driver in high speed.

Does the 4000 have a black-only mode? If you had KT in the matte black position you could print a black page in BO, using a matte media setting.

Best,

Helen