What will happen to your negatives in "the end"?

[bmikiten]

I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon BUT I am in the process of scanning (drum, high-resolution etc) 30+ years of 4x5, 8x10, 6x6 and 617 negatives. While I have printed many of them, sold a few over the years and have some in process of going into a future book for the family, I realized that while they will exist in a digital realm on DropBox or other backup medium, there aren't too many things that will happen after that last shutter click and drop of photoflo going down the drain. If you aren't Adams, Sexton, Weston(s), Tice, Arentz, White, etc. etc. what happens?

Contemplating....

[h2oman]

Throw them away before I die, to save someone else having to keep them until they decide to do the same! I guess if I wanted to be dramatic, I could have a party and burn them, but I'd rather not send out toxic smoke.

[fotopfw]

I've scanned the lot, but that only makes the question: what will happen to that?
My commercial work, my customers have had them already. Just my copies.
My family never showed interest in what I was doing, they didn't even knew what I did.
The physical stuff: all in the bin.
The website appearances: I stated in my will, that the accounts must be deleted.
When all is over, I couldn't care less. if I'm not around anymore, I can't even do that.

[Bernice Loui]

Often forgotten with the passage of time. Piles and piles of film (digital too) images from decades past and to this day. Many of these images cannot be made public due to usage rights (legal), many personal images cannot shared for a variety of reasons, other images are shared here and else where.

Same question came up after the gift of the life's work from another well known local artist (images have been archived at UC Berkeley). The seller was going to toss them ALL out into the trash.

Well over 300 Million images and as many videos are up loaded to just one Social Media outlet daily...

Enjoy this ride while possible, Share what is possible.. It will ALL pass with the passage of time. Change and Impermanence is a given.


Bernice

[Vaughn]

I hope to print portfolios for my sons -- am thinking about including the negatives with the portfolios.

[linhofbiker]

My wife of 54 years died last Sunday. She died at home in bed with cancer. I awoke at 5:30am and held her hand. She died seconds later.

She was a graduate in Interior Design (1966) from the U of Florida.
We lived in Montreal from 1968 to 1978. I am English and she is American.
Then we moved to Jacksonville FL.

In the early 1980's she made a business out of her art talent as a painter particularly water color.
She retired at 75 in 2019 after painting about 1000 watercolor paintings of mostly children (Gwen Cooper Portraits)
My life long interest in photography allowed her to "take over" my cameras except for the 4x5.
Over the years I would take an 4x5 E6 transparency of each painting for her records and the client could use it to make a giclee print of the original.

Fuji E6 will last, but what do I do with them?

[mpirie]

So sorry for your loss.

Mike

[Michael R]

I basically agree with Gregg. If I happen to know when I’m relatively near the end of the line, everything in a dumpster.

Even big name photographers will, or probably should do the same. You made your art. It’s done.

[jnantz]

shredder, already started . retina prints and other non fixed images are already grey, and a lot of what I make have no negatives so I am ahead of the game.

[Jim Noel]

i am in the process of beginning to shred beginning with the newest ones. Those over 75 years old may end up with my children.

[Serge S]

You guys are depressing me, but I guess we need to address the future at some point.

Why not let the images live to another generation - time has a way of creating interest.

What we see today as ordinary (not your photos, but some aspect/content in the image- cars for example or architecture)
often takes on new meaning with the passage of time. I see vintage photos all the time on instagram & am fascinated by the clothing, cars, buildings a lost time frozen - almost like cultural archeology !

[Tin Can]

not tossing anything

my will specs, sell it all

I have Pro seller lined up

Cash to step daughter, she is 52

NO Death Ceremony

Cremate and pour ashes anywhere easy

dust to dust

Amen

[Eric Woodbury]

One of the Weston grandkids used to make a print and dry-mount the neg to the back. Some only shoot Polaroid. The Famous transfer them to the Archive in Tucson at the Univ of Arizona. Morley Baer's negs went to UC Santa Cruz. Brett Weston made a big deal about burning his negs, but it was largely a publicity stunt. The Smithsonian accepts everything.

Giving negs or prints to an institution isn't much assurance. If a new regent or curator appears on the scene, they may sell or trade these items at will. Room is tight.

As the light at the end of the tunnel becomes brighter, I hope to print portfolios. And let's face it: We've seen the discussion here on LF forum, how many images do you make to get a good one? Lots. Let's throw out the duds because if we can't print them, who can or will? Or put them on the funeral pyre.

EjW

[Mark Sawyer]

I used to worry about all my prints and negatives ending up in a dumpster. Then I switched to wet plate, problem solved! Now I just worry about all my tintypes ending up in a dumpster...

[Oren Grad]

My wife of 54 years died last Sunday. She died at home in bed with cancer. I awoke at 5:30am and held her hand. She died seconds later.

Very sorry to hear that... condolences to you and yours.

[LabRat]

A small-time art dealer told me once that the problem with me was that I was alive, because it is easier to sell a dead artist... I suggested I should "fake" my death and act as my own agent... But forget openings with wine out of cubetainers... :(

The practical answer is in estate planning and what you request done with your body of work... Research sooner than later...

It could pay off for someone else... Look at that body of work from Vivian Meyer...

Steve K

[Mark Sawyer]

The Famous transfer them to the Archive in Tucson at the Univ of Arizona. Morley Baer's negs went to UC Santa Cruz. Brett Weston made a big deal about burning his negs, but it was largely a publicity stunt. The Smithsonian accepts everything...

Giving negs or prints to an institution isn't much assurance. If a new regent or curator appears on the scene, they may sell or trade these items at will. Room is tight

We're well into the digital age, and even a prolific photographer with a long career can put his/her images, writings, etc. on a small thumb drive and donate copies to multiple institutions, which without much work can make them available online. A small donation from the photographer or estate could guarantee the digital archive will be available for a long time, with some funds left over to support the hosting institution. I don't know of anyone doing this yet, but it seems likely it's happening or will soon. Digital storage is cheap and getting cheaper.

But the physical items, yeah...

[Alan Klein]

I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon BUT I am in the process of scanning (drum, high-resolution etc) 30+ years of 4x5, 8x10, 6x6 and 617 negatives. While I have printed many of them, sold a few over the years and have some in process of going into a future book for the family, I realized that while they will exist in a digital realm on DropBox or other backup medium, there aren't too many things that will happen after that last shutter click and drop of photoflo going down the drain. If you aren't Adams, Sexton, Weston(s), Tice, Arentz, White, etc. etc. what happens?

Contemplating....

Your wife's next husband will through them all out. :rolleyes:

[Alan Klein]

My wife of 54 years died last Sunday. She died at home in bed with cancer. I awoke at 5:30am and held her hand. She died seconds later.

She was a graduate in Interior Design (1966) from the U of Florida.
We lived in Montreal from 1968 to 1978. I am English and she is American.
Then we moved to Jacksonville FL.

In the early 1980's she made a business out of her art talent as a painter particularly water color.
She retired at 75 in 2019 after painting about 1000 watercolor paintings of mostly children (Gwen Cooper Portraits)
My life long interest in photography allowed her to "take over" my cameras except for the 4x5.
Over the years I would take an 4x5 E6 transparency of each painting for her records and the client could use it to make a giclee print of the original.

Fuji E6 will last, but what do I do with them?

I'm sorry for your loss. It seems you two had an amazing life together.

[Serge S]

Digital archives can be problematic as the storage media / technology is fluid and changes & the data needs to be migrated periodically.


We're well into the digital age, and even a prolific photographer with a long career can put his/her images, writings, etc. on a small thumb drive and donate copies to multiple institutions, which without much work can make them available online. A small donation from the photographer or estate could guarantee the digital archive will be available for a long time, with some funds left over to support the hosting institution. I don't know of anyone doing this yet, but it seems likely it's happening or will soon. Digital storage is cheap and getting cheaper.

But the physical items, yeah...

[bmikiten]

These are great and insightful comments. I do wonder about all the photographers of the past who left us with fascinating yet simple images of day-to-day life around the world. I know in my heart that video, iPhones, etc have taken their place now in our hyper-documented world but there are still places for photographs that depict the artist's point of view - the moment in time. There is something to be said for simply burning or shredding negatives especially when you consider those left behind.

[r.e.]

We're well into the digital age, and even a prolific photographer with a long career can put his/her images, writings, etc. on a small thumb drive and donate copies to multiple institutions, which without much work can make them available online. A small donation from the photographer or estate could guarantee the digital archive will be available for a long time, with some funds left over to support the hosting institution. I don't know of anyone doing this yet, but it seems likely it's happening or will soon. Digital storage is cheap and getting cheaper.

But the physical items, yeah...

I think that you've put your finger on something that some photographers should be thinking about. I'm involved in two communities that have active historical societies that are very interested in acquiring photographs of their communities. Having searched for historical photographs of these communities myself, I was surprised at how little exists. It's unusual to come across worthwhile prints, let alone negatives. One thing that's become clear to me is that ordinary people who took photos, or their descendants, didn't keep negatives, and in almost all cases the prints, if they exist, are quite small. One might think old photographs of New York City neighbourhoods are plentiful, but that isn't the case.

Outside the work of professionals whose work was/is considered significant, my impression is that very little has survived the death of the photographer. It's also not easy to find what does exist, because it requires labour intensive, time consuming work going through archives. It's analogous to looking for a needle in a haystack. I'm living in a nationally-designated Historic District for which there is very little historical photographic record.

People who have images in digital form are in a position to help ensure that photographic records of the 2020's are a lot better than what we have for the decades before 2000.

[ic-racer]

My negatives will be fine, they are easy to store and manage. However, my wife only took digital files of the kids. About 15 yeats ago she put all the files on an external drive. Who knows what format the drive is in, plus she cant even find the cord for it. Realistically, who is going to go to the trouble of and expense of trying to maintain a digital archive.
A digital archive needs continuous attention, always being one drive failure or retired operating system away from losing everything.
I see Apple has a new drive format for SSD. I suspect the old spinning disk journaled format will eventially be unreadable by a future OS.

[r.e.]

My negatives will be fine, they are easy to store and manage. However, my wife only took digital files of the kids. About 15 yeats ago she put all the files on an external drive. Who knows what format the drive is in, plus she cant even find the cord for it. Realistically, who is going to go to the trouble of and expense of trying to maintain a digital archive.
A digital archive needs continuous attention, always being one drive failure or retired operating system away from losing everything.
I see Apple has a new drive format for SSD.

I'm just one of the many, many millions of people who have maintained digital music and films for a couple of decades, including ripping them from their original hard disk formats as storage came down in price. Like countless others, I ripped my entire CD collection in order to get rid of the physical disks, which were a nuisance to "store and manage". I got rid of the rather expensive CD player too.

Recovering the photographs of your kids from your 15 year old hard drive is not only not rocket science, it's quite straightforward. Either get a replacement cable or take the drive out of its current enclosure. It comes down to whether you care enough about the photos of your kids to do that.

Apple's "new" drive format, APFS, has existed for five years. It's replacing previous drive formats. Mac users are not "losing everything". The only people who "lose everything" due to a drive failure are people who fail to back up their drives despite being told repeatedly to do so.

A comment about this: "My negatives will be fine, they are easy to store and manage." Some years ago, I had a tour of the premises of Beken of Cowes (https://www.beken.co.uk), the world's most important photographer of sailing vessels. The company's glass plates and negatives, going back 130 years, were stored on the premises. They were a fire from the entire collection being lost. What were they doing about it? They were starting to make digital scans of all of the photographs.

[Michael E]

If we want to place our archives with an institution, we better start labeling stuff. The Ws: Where, when, who, what, why. It makes a huge difference if the receiving institution has to hire extra staff to do the research or not. It's the difference between treasure and trash. Let's label our images while the memory is still there.

Yes, our images will some day become historical witnesses (if they aren't already). No, we should not take our heirs' opportunity to choose themselves what is worth keeping. I keep telling my parents not to clean up the attic, because they throw away the wrong stuff. They get rid of the things with emotional meaning for me and my brother and keep worthless junk that can be replaced any day on ebay.

Sorry for the rant. I have no idea what will happen to my images. My son is 18, who knows what his future interests will be. I'm not famous enough to entertain the idea of a museum or archive as a recipient.

[bmikiten]

Great point on labeling. I noticed this in my own work. Very often, I'd label the PrintFile sleeves with developer information but not location or dates. I'm fixing as much of that as possible now by - believe it or not - correlating it with iPhone images from the last 15 years. There is something to be said for taking quick documentation shots of sites before hauling out the 4x5 or 8x10!

[Alan Klein]

My negatives will be fine, they are easy to store and manage. However, my wife only took digital files of the kids. About 15 yeats ago she put all the files on an external drive. Who knows what format the drive is in, plus she cant even find the cord for it. Realistically, who is going to go to the trouble of and expense of trying to maintain a digital archive.
A digital archive needs continuous attention, always being one drive failure or retired operating system away from losing everything.
I see Apple has a new drive format for SSD. I suspect the old spinning disk journaled format will eventially be unreadable by a future OS.

I have 60-year-old photo albums with little prints. It has a better chance of surviving than any digital files. So, the lesson is making prints of you best pictures and give them as gifts to friends and family, framed particularly. Those will survive more likely while giving pleasure in the meanwhile to you and them.

[r.e.]

Great point on labeling. I noticed this in my own work. Very often, I'd label the PrintFile sleeves with developer information but not location or dates. I'm fixing as much of that as possible now by - believe it or not - correlating it with iPhone images from the last 15 years. There is something to be said for taking quick documentation shots of sites before hauling out the 4x5 or 8x10!

One advantage of using a phone to make photos of analogue photographs, or of the scene when making an analogue photograph, is that you can use IPTC's format to input information about the shot and keywords to make searching easy. All photo archivists are aware of the IPTC format (https://www.iptc.org), and it's so widely used that it's unlikely to be obsolete for the foreseeable future. People who use Lightroom, Capture One, etc. can already do this. For those who don't... just about all news organisations and photojournalists use Photo Mechanic (https://home.camerabits.com), but my understanding is that there are apps that are much cheaper, and some that are free, that may work fine for occasional use.

[Alan Klein]

There is so much data created everyday of all kinds by everyone. There seems to be some idea that this information is so important it must be preserved. Why? Everyone wants to be remembered, I get it. But others could care less. How much info do we really need to store anyway? For what benefit, really? It becomes a time-wasting and boring job that few really care about except the storer.

I've never seen a hearse pulling a U-Haul.

"Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body."
.... Ecclesiastes 12:12

[r.e.]

There is so much data created everyday of all kinds by everyone. There seems to be some idea that this information is so important it must be preserved. Why? Everyone wants to be remembered, I get it. But others could care less. How much info do we really need to store anyway? For what benefit, really? It becomes a time-wasting and boring job that few really care about except the storer.

As I've said in post #22, when I make photographs I often have in mind two historical societies, one in New York and one in rural Newfoundland. This became a factor when I discovered that there is very little photographic record of my New York Historic District or of the rural area where my Newfoundland summer home is located. I talked in post #22 about New York. A few years ago I spent some time in Dorset, Hampshire and Guernsey researching buildings, paintings and records that have a bearing on the history of my part of Newfoundland. I found a lot of material, some of it going back hundreds of years, but only six photos. They were negatives shot with a medium format camera by a gentleman who was important in both England and Newfoundland. I was excited until I had a good look at the negatives and discovered that they were all out of focus :)

As part of that trip, I also learned a lot about southern England and the Island of Guernsey. I had only seen Guernsey before while crossing the English Channel in a sailboat (surfing a Channel Islands tidal stream in a sailboat at 18 knots - 21mph, 33kph - is quite an experience), and knew about Guernsey mostly from the wonderful, and important, novel The Book of Ebenezer Le Page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Ebenezer_Le_Page). I also acquired a better understanding of Guernsey's complicated World War II history, and visited Victor Hugo's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Hugo) home in exile (he had accused Louis Napoléon Bonaparte of treason), Hugo's approach to interior design being unconventional and interesting.

Do I think that this is all "time-wasting" and "boring"? Not the words that I would choose.

The Book of Ebenezer Le Page, NYRB Classics,
Introduction by John Fowles (https://www.amazon.com/Book-Ebenezer-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1590172337/ref=asc_df_1590172337/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312178241251&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6218712442726053169&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1023038&hvtargid=pla-469155691329&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=60258871577&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312178241251&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6218712442726053169&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1023038&hvtargid=pla-469155691329)

228828

[bmikiten]

There is so much data created everyday of all kinds by everyone. There seems to be some idea that this information is so important it must be preserved. Why? Everyone wants to be remembered, I get it. But others could care less. How much info do we really need to store anyway? For what benefit, really? It becomes a time-wasting and boring job that few really care about except the storer.

I've never seen a hearse pulling a U-Haul.

"Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body."
.... Ecclesiastes 12:12

Yes, but at what point does one stop? The thought I was posing in the initial post was really one of historical use, family value and the general fun (or commercial value) we all derive from photography and our negatives. No one except my family who have watched me for hours waiting for the right light or traveling 300 miles just to capture a certain scene will appreciate it. They certainly won't print the negatives.

Burning the negatives (per a Will) is interesting. We saw Brett Weston do this with little affect on the value of his prints or (IMHO) his notoriety. Not that either mattered to him in the end but he did have a plan. I have 12 of his prints and don't expect to sell or get rid of them as I think they are some of the best work out there. My kids may enjoy seeing them on their walls in the future but they will doubtfully assign any aesthetic or monetary value to them. I suspect my images will have a greater value to them than anything I've collected so that's something.

[Chester McCheeserton]

Throw them away before I die, to save someone else having to keep them until they decide to do the same! I guess if I wanted to be dramatic, I could have a party and burn them, but I'd rather not send out toxic smoke.

+1

[paulbarden]

A more important question is "does it matter what happens to your negatives when you're dead and gone?" For the vast majority of us, its not going to matter one way or the other.

[Peter De Smidt]

+1

Speaking as someone who just had to deal with my parent's estate, I'm in agreement. I will throw them out.

If you haven't set up a will, and in particular if you haven't setup your assets to be transferred on death without going through probate, then you might want to look into it.

[Alan Klein]

As I've said in post #22, when I make photographs I often have in mind two historical societies, one in New York and one in rural Newfoundland. This became a factor when I discovered that there is very little photographic record of my New York Historic District or of the rural area where my Newfoundland summer home is located. I talked in post #22 about New York. A few years ago I spent some time in Dorset, Hampshire and Guernsey researching buildings, paintings and records that have a bearing on the history of my part of Newfoundland. I found a lot of material, some of it going back hundreds of years, but only six photos. They were negatives shot with a medium format camera by a gentleman who was important in both England and Newfoundland. I was excited until I had a good look at the negatives and discovered that they were all out of focus :)

As part of that trip, I also learned a lot about southern England and the Island of Guernsey. I had only seen Guernsey before while crossing the English Channel in a sailboat (surfing a Channel Islands tidal stream in a sailboat at 18 knots - 21mph, 33kph - is quite an experience), and knew about Guernsey mostly from the wonderful, and important, novel The Book of Ebenezer Le Page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Ebenezer_Le_Page). I also acquired a better understanding of Guernsey's complicated World War II history, and visited Victor Hugo's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Hugo) home in exile (he had accused Louis Napoléon Bonaparte of treason), Hugo's approach to interior design being unconventional and interesting.

Do I think that this is all "time-wasting" and "boring"? Not the words that I would choose.

The Book of Ebenezer Le Page, NYRB Classics,
Introduction by John Fowles (https://www.amazon.com/Book-Ebenezer-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1590172337/ref=asc_df_1590172337/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312178241251&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6218712442726053169&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1023038&hvtargid=pla-469155691329&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=60258871577&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312178241251&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6218712442726053169&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1023038&hvtargid=pla-469155691329)

228828

There's no end to a bucket list.

[r.e.]

There's no end to a bucket list.

You think that I've lived for many years in New York and Newfoundland, and have an active interest in the history of those places and the work of my local historical societies, as part of checking off a bucket list? What an odd idea. If you're referring to Guernsey, I've been spending time in the English Channel, in particular on the Isle of Wight, for 30 years. Where do you think the people who worked in the Newfoundland cod fishery came from? In the 19th century, investors in the Newfoundland cod trade were among the wealthiest and most politically powerful people in England. Part of what I wanted to see, in Hampshire in particular (30 minutes by high speed ferry from Wight), were Georgian and Victorian mansions that they built. More contemporarily, where do you think the steelworkers who built our New York skyscrapers came from? A lot of them were from Newfoundland. The union hall, and their descendants, are still in Brooklyn :)

There's no shortage of subjects for photographs, and no shortage of organisations that would be interested in them, particularly if they're well-documented and in digital form.

[Jody_S]

Sorry for your loss, linhofbiker.

Your circumstances bring up the crux of this matter, though. For most of us, whether our negs go in the bin when we die will depend on the sentimental attachment of our surviving loved ones, not the artistic merit or monetary value of the negs. I certainly can't imagine anyone would ever want to purchase my own, but I'm sure if I die before my wife, she will dutifully keep them all in a couple of boxes in the attic until it's her turn.

If I know I'm on the way out, I will spare her the trouble and throw them all in the dumpster myself, and just prepare a portfolio of at most 20 or so images that she can keep to remember me and my obsessions. Same with the gear, I don't want to die and leave her with hundreds of lenses and cameras that she will have to hand over for pennies to the first shark who answers his phone.

[linhofbiker]

Sorry for your loss, linhofbiker.


Thanks.

As I put together a memorial at our house I have found photos from 1967 when we met.
When my mother died in 2009 there were thousands of B/W pictures and negatives of family history in the attic.
Being the family photographer I assumed responsibility for them all.
My wife and I made a family album over years of many prints on large sheets held in a loose file.
I made 4x5 images of each page for my 2 sons.
All this is meaningful to those family members still alive.
My wife always wanted me to accomplish my stated goal in life of "living to 100 and knowing about it".
As I approach this goal I hope I can dispose of my photographic tools and put stuff in the dumper so relieving my survivors this task.
Perhaps when this happens around 2044 the digital world would have developed from today's "cloud" to something much better.

[Tin Can]

What is the rush?

Maybe in 20 years we have better recycling

maybe we will need big negs as windows

even air space insulation barrier

or

think

[bob carnie]

I am on a mission to print all my edition prints before I kick the bucket, At that point I will give the master original negs to some institution or just destroy them, A lot of my original film is colour negative so nature will take its course on the film. I am not
sure if I want to have anyone print my negs at this point, but if one of my apprentices stays with me and continues the business I may pass them on to her.

[John Layton]

This is one of those threads that I tend to circle around for a bit...and I think I'll continue circling for the time being.

But in the meantime...Linhofbiker I am so sorry for your loss.

[Bernice Loui]

Negatives and resulting images ... their value based on creative/expressive content ~or~ perceived value of it's creator's symbol of worth/fame _?_

Disputed Ansel Adam's negatives from years ago.. much about who gains _$_ from creative work:
https://veritasbusinesslaw.com/trademark-lawsuit-over-alleged-ansel-adams-negatives/

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/court-battle-over-lost-ansel-adams-negatives-turns-ugly-108004


Bernice

[Mark Sawyer]

All this is a simple reminder that perhaps the greatest advancement in digital photography is the "delete all" button.

[rfesk]

Most of my photography consists of family photos and photos of buildings, businesses etc in my small town taken for archival purposes. The project is to organize and catalog them such that they are easy to identify.

[jnantz]

A more important question is "does it matter what happens to your negatives when you're dead and gone?" For the vast majority of us, its not going to matter one way or the other.

Pretty much summed it up ..

[John Kasaian]

This is so depressing I'm going to pour myself an ample Brandy, LOL!

[Mark Sawyer]

This is so depressing I'm going to pour myself an ample Brandy, LOL!

At least your family won't have to worry about any Brandy being left behind... :rolleyes:

[r_a_feldman]

“Because of the many pictures I have of my father, he eludes me completely. In my outrageously disloyal memory he does not exist in three dimensions, or with associated smells or timbre of voice. He exists as a series of pictures…I don’t have a memory of the man; I have a memory of a photograph. I rush upstairs to the scrapbooks and there he is. I’ve lost any clear idea of what my father really looked like, how he moved, sounded; the him-ness of him. I only have this. <photo of her father in shirtsleeves>”

Excerpt From
Hold Still: A Memoir with Photographs
Sally Mann

Not withstanding the above, I have and keep a number of pictures of my parent and grandparents, both prints and negatives. I think one of my two sons will appreciate what I have kept. As far as photographs related to my work as an archaeologist, I am in the process of documenting them and getting them to the archives of the museum where I worked.

[r.e.]

As far as photographs related to my work as an archaeologist...

Maybe it's just me, but I got a chuckle from that :)

[Alan Klein]

Yes, but at what point does one stop? The thought I was posing in the initial post was really one of historical use, family value and the general fun (or commercial value) we all derive from photography and our negatives. No one except my family who have watched me for hours waiting for the right light or traveling 300 miles just to capture a certain scene will appreciate it. They certainly won't print the negatives.

Burning the negatives (per a Will) is interesting. We saw Brett Weston do this with little affect on the value of his prints or (IMHO) his notoriety. Not that either mattered to him in the end but he did have a plan. I have 12 of his prints and don't expect to sell or get rid of them as I think they are some of the best work out there. My kids may enjoy seeing them on their walls in the future but they will doubtfully assign any aesthetic or monetary value to them. I suspect my images will have a greater value to them than anything I've collected so that's something.

Ask your kids which photos they might like to see you print so they can put them up on their walls. Make photo albums of family pictures and give to them. These are the things most people care about preserving.

[Alan Klein]

I am on a mission to print all my edition prints before I kick the bucket, At that point I will give the master original negs to some institution or just destroy them, A lot of my original film is colour negative so nature will take its course on the film. I am not
sure if I want to have anyone print my negs at this point, but if one of my apprentices stays with me and continues the business I may pass them on to her.

Why not ask them if they want the negatives and plan to commercialize them. Then make a deal to share profits they make with some of your family. I;m sure your apprentices or your family would not turn down additional income and it's a way to monetize parts of your estate.

[ic-racer]

I have been saving digital image and music files since the early 1980s. I even wrote image analysis software at NIH in the early 1990s.
To preserve my files I currently have functional Mac SE30, Mac Quadra 700, iMac Colored, iMac 2002, iMac 27" 2009 Snow Leapord, Mac Mini 2014, iMac 27" 2017, each with multiple operating systems and countless floppy and hard disks. The point is no-one will go to the trouble to preserve the files when I'm gone.

[Alan Klein]

I have been saving digital image and music files since the early 1980s. I even wrote image analysis software at NIH in the early 1990s.
To preserve my files I currently have functional Mac SE30, Mac Quadra 700, iMac Colored, iMac 2002, iMac 27" 2009 Snow Leapord, Mac Mini 2014, iMac 27" 2017, each with multiple operating systems and countless floppy and hard disks. The point is no-one will go to the trouble to preserve the files when I'm gone.

We just replaced our washer and drier. I can't get my wife to read the instructions. Do you really think your family will be interested in figuring out a 2009 Snow Leopard? ;)

[willwilson]

Interesting thought experiment. It has inspired me to think of sharing my work with those around me more intentionally and focusing more on what brings me joy in photography.

Maybe an AI can currate my digital work for me before I kick the bucket? I'm guessing I won't get to it no matter the number of days remaining.

[bob carnie]

Why not ask them if they want the negatives and plan to commercialize them. Then make a deal to share profits they make with some of your family. I;m sure your apprentices or your family would not turn down additional income and it's a way to monetize parts of your estate.

A lot will depend on her ability in a few years, I do plan to print out everything is small editions. I imagine if all goes to plan there will not be much to print. We have already started the process where they both work on the images under my supervision and
this is going well.

[r.e.]

I think the trick is to identify a person or organisation that's interested in one's photographs, cull ruthlessly and then make it as simple as possible for that person or organisation to sort them, view them and understand their context (what, when, who, where, why). I'm convinced that digitising the photos, whether by scanning or by photographing the prints or negatives (can be done with a smartphone), goes a long way to fulfilling the third objective. The context can be conveyed with a paired note in a format that will be readable by any computer for the foreseeable future (plain text or rich text using an app like TextEdit or Notepad++) or with a plain text embedded or sidecar metadata file (the IPTC (https://www.iptc.org) format will likewise be readable long-term).

Compared to using Adobe or Capture One to provide contextual information, Photo Mechanic (US$139) (https://home.camerabits.com) is more user-friendly for both the photographer and people who view his/her photographs. For example, it's possible to customise your IPTC template so that it contains only the fields that you want to use. In the example below, a landscape photographer could get rid of another five fields. With a little thought, entering most information can be done with a mouse click. As the second screen capture shows, it's also easy to make a search as broad or as narrow as one wants. Note that the search window reflects the customisation of the IPTC template. This is also one of those unusual situations where a simple, dated user interface just works better than the contemporary interfaces of apps like Lightroom and Capture One. Even if all three of the companies that make these apps go out of business tomorrow, there will be apps available that can read IPTC-format metadata.

IPTC Template
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Search
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[Oren Grad]

I think the trick is to identify a person or organisation that's interested in one's photographs, cull ruthlessly and then make it as simple as possible for that person or organisation to sort them, view them and understand their context (what, when, who, where, why).

Wise words.


Compared to using Adobe or Capture One to provide contextual information, Photo Mechanic (US$139) (https://home.camerabits.com) is more user-friendly for both the photographer and people who view his/her photographs....

Are there any other metadata-management tools that you can recommend? I attempted a trial of Photo Mechanic a few months ago with precisely this purpose in mind, but ran into insoluble problems completing installation on my well-equipped Windows 10 PC. The company's technical support tried to help but it turned into too much of a time-sink and I eventually gave up on it.

[Tin Can]

I think Google just started aggressively grabbing ALL Photos, movies, music, etc

I see format evolution change and vastly more images daily

May as well go with big bully

I have no advice how to organize and maintain

Apple may not have the power to battle META

So Google vs META

[bob carnie]

I think the trick is to identify a person or organisation that's interested in one's photographs, cull ruthlessly and then make it as simple as possible for that person or organisation to sort them, view them and understand their context (what, when, who, where, why). I'm convinced that digitising the photos, whether by scanning or by photographing the prints or negatives (can be done with a smartphone), goes a long way to fulfilling the third objective. The context can be conveyed with a paired note in a format that will be readable by any computer for the foreseeable future (plain text or rich text using an app like TextEdit or Notepad++) or with a plain text embedded or sidecar metadata file (the IPTC (https://www.iptc.org) format will likewise be readable long-term).

Compared to using Adobe or Capture One to provide contextual information, Photo Mechanic (US$139) (https://home.camerabits.com) is more user-friendly for both the photographer and people who view his/her photographs. For example, it's possible to customise your IPTC template so that it contains only the fields that you want to use. In the example below, a landscape photographer could get rid of another five fields. With a little thought, entering most information can be done with a mouse click. As the second screen capture shows, it's also easy to make a search as broad or as narrow as one wants. Note that the search window reflects the customisation of the IPTC template. This is also one of those unusual situations where a simple, dated user interface just works better than the contemporary interfaces of apps like Lightroom and Capture One. Even if all three of the companies that make these apps go out of business tomorrow, there will be apps available that can read IPTC-format metadata.

IPTC Template
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Search
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I would add to this - a comprehensive list of where each image is sold, the amounts, as well a complete inventory of images edition and available for future sale.
Also a very clear written description of your work, how the images were produced, why these images are important to you, and a statement on your edition size.
This will make it clear for whoever is taking over your work what is to be done with it.

[Alan Klein]

A lot will depend on her ability in a few years, I do plan to print out everything is small editions. I imagine if all goes to plan there will not be much to print. We have already started the process where they both work on the images under my supervision and
this is going well.

Sound like a good plan. Good luck with it and stay healthy. No point rushing things. :)

[r.e.]

Are there any other metadata-management tools that you can recommend? I attempted a trial of Photo Mechanic a few months ago with precisely this purpose in mind, but ran into insoluble problems completing installation on my well-equipped Windows 10 PC. The company's technical support tried to help but it turned into too much of a time-sink and I eventually gave up on it.

I don't know what issue you ran into, but it should be resolvable. It's likely that almost all media organisations and photojournalists using Windows 10 are also using Photo Mechanic. Also, I just had a look at the Photo Mechanic forum and I don't see many posts about Windows 10 problems. If you want to pursue the option, it might be worthwhile to explain the issue on the Photo Mechanic Forum (http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php) and see what responses you get.

I've only used Photoshop/Lightroom, Capture One and Photo Mechanic. As you know, there are several other options. Out of curiosity, I've been thinking about installing Phil Harvey's ExifTool (https://exiftool.org), which is available for both Mac and Windows. It's well-regarded, free and actively maintained (the most recent version was released yesterday). It will read, write and edit IPTC and XMP data as well as EXIF data. However, note that it's a terminal app, run from a command line, with no graphical user interface. There are options, which Harvey explains on the ExifTool website, to install it as a full application or to use it as a utility.

I should add that I'm talking about the standard version of Photo Mechanic. Photo Mechanic Plus, released in 2020, adds a full-blown catalogue function. Photoshop/Lightroom and Capture One have their own catalogues. As attractive as the Photo Mechanic Plus catalogue is when viewed in isolation, having both an Adobe or Capture One catalogue and a Photo Mechanic catalogue has workflow and storage consequences. I'm currently considering PM Plus for the second time since its release, and for my needs I'm not yet convinced that it's a good idea.

[bob carnie]

Sound like a good plan. Good luck with it and stay healthy. No point rushing things. :)

Thanks Alan
I am pretty healthy and plan to keep that way for quite sometime. I have been working on a long term project now for over 18 years and recently am printing it out.
This keeps me happy.

Bob

[Peter De Smidt]

The suggestions on how to keep everything manageable are great ideas. People are likely to keep ahold of something if it's easy for them to do, and it's not an overwhelming task. Make your negative and digital systems manageable, including with instructions on how things are organized and accessed. Cull material that is unlikely to have any value to anyone. If analogue, for example, keep a contact sheet with every bunch of negatives. Use a consistent organizational structure, with labels on the negative sleeves and contact sheets. Even better, also have a digital version, complete with references, something that a descendent can work through. Photomechanic is really good ( I haven't used it in years, though. Some pros I used to work with used it.), but will whoever ends up with your stuff know and use it? Maybe taking digital snaps of contact sheets and organizing them on something like Google Drive would be more universally useful. Making high quality books for special people seems like a good idea.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'll save a few that I care dearly about, make multiple prints of them, then destroy the rest. Hopefully I don't suddenly drop dead before then! Eventually, even the ones I save, will be lost, or tossed by a descendant...

[r.e.]

Photomechanic is really good ( I haven't used it in years, though. Some pros I used to work with used it.), but will whoever ends up with your stuff know and use it? Maybe taking digital snaps of contact sheets and organizing them on something like Google Drive would be more universally useful.

I think that it's worth distinguishing between the photographer, as author of the metadata, and the person or organisation that receives the photographs. People who just need to search for photographs, view them and read the IPTC information that the photographer wrote don't actually need Photo Mechanic or any other special app. MacOS, and I assume Windows, has the ability to do those things built in; in the case of MacOS via Preview and Spotlight, and to a limited degree in Apple Photo. That said, Photo Mechanic is easier to use, and more powerful, than what MacOS offers. It's simpler to use, just as a viewer, than apps like Apple Photo and Lightroom for iPad. It's hard to imagine people who have trouble figuring out how to view photos on those apps.

The screen capture below shows the Photo Mechanic interface. The column on the left just lists the computer's directories. The rest is photographs from the directories. Photo Mechanic calls its interface a "contact sheet". That's because it's exactly that, a digital contact sheet, but with a lot of information attached to each image. That information appears with a single click of a mouse. Of course, there are other options. The IPTC organisation lists over 20 applications, ranging in complexity, that have robust IPTC search and viewing functions. As I suggested earlier, pairing photographs with a TextEdit or Notepad++ file, written in plain text or rich text, is also an option, although less efficient.

The Photo Mechanic Interface
(screen capture from a Photo Mechanic tutorial)

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[bdkphoto]

I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon BUT I am in the process of scanning (drum, high-resolution etc) 30+ years of 4x5, 8x10, 6x6 and 617 negatives. While I have printed many of them, sold a few over the years and have some in process of going into a future book for the family, I realized that while they will exist in a digital realm on DropBox or other backup medium, there aren't too many things that will happen after that last shutter click and drop of photoflo going down the drain. If you aren't Adams, Sexton, Weston(s), Tice, Arentz, White, etc. etc. what happens?

Contemplating....

In the end it is a fairy simple proposition - you treat your work like any other asset, based on its value to your family and plan accordingly as you would with the rest of your estate. If you derive significant income from your work either through licensing or selling prints you will need to transfer the copyright to your heirs if want the to be able to continue to generate income. For those in that position there is a great resource at www.apag.us - the American Photographic Archives Group for those that own or manage privately held photo archives.

I highly recommend digitizing your archive - a program like Lightroom makes managing the library relatively simple and portable over time.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm dreading the chore. I'm pretty well equipped to digitally copy my print collection for cataloging purposes only; but that's still on the backburner. Don't give a damn about my negs and chromes if I'm not the one specifically printing them; but those will inevitably end up in the same allocated vault. Then there's all the estate paperwork legal hassle still to be done. Heck, I've still got a huge backlog of drymounting to do of only the very best b&w prints. Mounting more than a just token apiece of the big color ones is not likely to happen at all. But I want my heirs to have at least a jump-start to potential income themselves from all this.

Our priority at the moment is just to find a good home for yet another rescued kitten. Rescued a baby possum yesterday, apparently isolated from its mother during all the fireworks noise. It was snooping around our plum tree. My wife took it to the County wildlife rehabilitation center. I think that's where all the possums addicted to fermented fruit sit around encouraging each other to sober up. I know there's a similar program for big deer, called, Elkoholics Anonymous.

[Michael R]

Bob who are you training to take over, Dinesh? :D


I would add to this - a comprehensive list of where each image is sold, the amounts, as well a complete inventory of images edition and available for future sale.
Also a very clear written description of your work, how the images were produced, why these images are important to you, and a statement on your edition size.
This will make it clear for whoever is taking over your work what is to be done with it.

[Merg Ross]

Burning the negatives (per a Will) is interesting. We saw Brett Weston do this with little affect on the value of his prints or (IMHO) his notoriety. Not that either mattered to him in the end but he did have a plan. I have 12 of his prints and don't expect to sell or get rid of them as I think they are some of the best work out there. My kids may enjoy seeing them on their walls in the future but they will doubtfully assign any aesthetic or monetary value to them. I suspect my images will have a greater value to them than anything I've collected so that's something.

Brett did have a plan; it was to destroy all of his negatives when he turned 80. It was a decision he made at the conclusion of spending a year printing from 800+ of Edward's negatives (the Print Project.) --- only Brett would ever print his own negatives.

The burning of his negatives has been somewhat exaggerated. Actually, the destruction began months before his birthday as the negatives were soaked in bins of water and hauled to the county dump in Salinas. The few he threw into his fireplace on birthday morning were for show and the benefit of an international press looking on. Brett always enjoyed the theatrical!

As to what remain of his negatives, Brett was finally convinced by two close friends to save a few for student study. They spent time in his negative vault, ultimately saving about sixty negatives. The corners were cut. On the evening of his birthday party at Stonepine Resort, I recall Cole parading around with about a dozen famous negatives that had been hole punched. They, and I assume those from the vault, reside at the Center for Creative Photography in Tucson.

You are fortunate to have some of Brett's prints to enjoy; I too!

[bob carnie]

Bob who are you training to take over, Dinesh? :D

He would be to costly to hire, and too mouthy as well... Actually I have two young women working with me that show the interest in what we do here, after about 3 or 4 years they may not like it so much or like me fall in love with photography and make it their life.

[bob carnie]

Brett did have a plan; it was to destroy all of his negatives when he turned 80. It was a decision he made at the conclusion of spending a year printing from 800+ of Edward's negatives (the Print Project.) --- only Brett would ever print his own negatives.

The burning of his negatives has been somewhat exaggerated. Actually, the destruction began months before his birthday as the negatives were soaked in bins of water and hauled to the county dump in Salinas. The few he threw into his fireplace on birthday morning were for show and the benefit of an international press looking on. Brett always enjoyed the theatrical!

As to what remain of his negatives, Brett was finally convinced by two close friends to save a few for student study. They spent time in his negative vault, ultimately saving about sixty negatives. The corners were cut. On the evening of his birthday party at Stonepine Resort, I recall Cole parading around with about a dozen famous negatives that had been hole punched. They, and I assume those from the vault, reside at the Center for Creative Photography in Tucson.

You are fortunate to have some of Brett's prints to enjoy; I too!

I love the fact that Brett took the time to work on 800 of his fathers negatives, this is no small chore , everything I hear about Brett Weston I like, except the bit about the black fingernails.

[PatrickMarq]

I'll save a few that I care dearly about, Eventually, even the ones I save, will be lost, or tossed by a descendant...

Yes, that’s where I’m afraid of …

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - Brett was ahead of his time! Black fingernails caught on a generation later among rock bands. Only difference is that they probably smoked the amidol instead. I'll admit I have one badly stained darkroom tray; fignernails, nope - I always wear nitrile gloves.

[Michael R]

I think he used LPD for a while instead, so he temporarily would have had normal finger nails.


Bob - Brett was ahead of his time! Black fingernails caught on a generation later among rock bands. Only difference is that they probably smoked the amidol instead. I'll admit I have one badly stained darkroom tray; fignernails, nope - I always wear nitrile gloves.

[r.e.]

I've only used Photoshop/Lightroom, Capture One and Photo Mechanic. As you know, there are several other options. Out of curiosity, I've been thinking about installing Phil Harvey's ExifTool (https://exiftool.org), which is available for both Mac and Windows. It's well-regarded, free and actively maintained (the most recent version was released yesterday). It will read, write and edit IPTC and XMP data as well as EXIF data. However, note that it's a terminal app, run from a command line, with no graphical user interface. There are options, which Harvey explains on the ExifTool website, to install it as a full application or to use it as a utility.


I installed the full version of Phil Harvey's ExifTool today and spent a couple of hours trying it out. If you're comfortable with telling your computer what to do from a command line, ExifTool is a very capable programme. Installation of the full version is dead simple (Harvey provides the commands), and my Mac took less than five seconds to do it. If I understand correctly, Harvey's Mac and Windows utility versions of ExifTool don't even require installation.

For my first try, using an iPhone photo that I renamed test.heic, I ran the command exiftool test.heic -model="Arca Swiss 4x5". The command ran in the blink of an eye. Opening the photo in Photo Mechanic, PM dutifully told me that it was shot, not with an iPhone 11 Pro Max, but with an Arca Swiss 4x5 :)

Voilà:

228927

Organised to handle multiple fields and photographs, ExifTool would be an efficient way to input EXIF and IPTC metadata into scanned photographs, and it's free and actively maintained to boot.

[PatrickMarq]

@r.e.

I have been using exiftool now for several years, and it does what you want.
My workflow is:
record everything in the Film Shots app
Export that json file
Import this into my MySQL database/website
From the website export a shell script with all the parameters
Local cron in mac for updating tiff file.

Next steps, perhaps create custom EXIF fields with film & develpment values. Now they are in Lightroom plugin.

I can send an example shell script I use if needed

Patrick

[r.e.]

Thanks Patrick, I'd very much like to see your ExifTool script. I've sent you a personal message with my e-mail address.

People who are interested in trying out ExifTool may find the following comments on installing the full Mac version useful. The developer, Phil Harvey, provides the Terminal commands for installation to a Linux, Mac or Windows computer. You can copy and paste them into your Terminal. When I ran the installation commands, ExifTool installed in a couple of seconds.

Harvey's commands assume that you've moved the ExifTool file from your Downloads folder to your Desktop. If your Mac changes the file name from Image-ExifTool-12.43.tar.gz to Image-ExifTool-12.43.tar without the ".gz", as mine did, it means that your Mac has uncompressed the file (.gz stands for gzip). Just delete ".gz" from the file name in Harvey's commands. If someone reads this down the road, 12.43 is just the current ExifTool version number and will be different in the future.

ExifTool is well documented. There are a lot of people who use it so there's also a lot of user advice on the internet. If Lightroom or Capture One doesn't do what you want when it comes to recording data on digital images of your analogue photographs (scans, smartphone photos), ExifTool will. Note Patrick's comment in the post above that he uses ExifTool to record film and development information. ExifTool is also wickedly fast in carrying out commands.

I remain a fan of Photo Mechanic and the ability, in that app, to create a customised IPTC template. Unused IPTC fields (there are a lot of them, most irrelevant to my needs) can be repurposed to record information on things like camera and lens, film stock and exposure and processing information. That said, a member of Photo Mechanic's staff tells me that he uses both Photo Mechanic and ExifTool to record information on his analogue photographs, an idea that I plan to consider. He used the Mac utility Automator to write scripts for ExifTool, basically macros, that automate its use.

[PatrickMarq]

@r.e.,

Mail send with the script.
If someone else has is interest


#!/bin/bash
export PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/local/mysql/bin:/Users/patrick_marquetecken

## Exif information for image
exiftool -Make="Chamonix" -Model="045F-2" -ISO="100" -Lens="Rodenstock Sinnar-N 150mm f/5.6" -LensModel="Rodenstock Sinnar-N 150mm f/5.6" -LensType="Rodenstock Sinnar-N" -FocalLength="150" -MaxApertureValue="5.6" -FNumber="11" -ExposureTime="1/8" -iptc:ObjectName="" -iptc:sub-location="" -ImageDescription= -Description= -iptc:Caption-Abstract= -MeteringMode#="3" -m -overwrite_original_in_place -DateTimeOriginal="2022-04-27 11:22:47:00" -XMP:GPSLatitude="50.961029052734" -XMP:GPSLongitude="4.6240862009186" -Label="" -iptc:credit="Patrick Marquetecken - Fotografie" -creator="Patrick Marquetecken " -xmp:copyright="All rights reserved - patrick@marquetecken.be" -xmp:copyrightstatus="protected" -xmp-xmprights:marked="true" -LicensorURL="https://www.marquetecken.be/licentie" -xmp:WebStatement="https://www.marquetecken.be/licentie" -xmp:UsageTerms="For consideration only. No reproduction without prior permission" "/Volumes/G-DRIVE 4TB/FOTO'S/2022/Arboretum Wespelaar/20906.tif" -v0

Remark:
the script (everything after exiftool) should be ONE line !!
And this is for Mac/Linux

[r.e.]

Hi Patrick, thanks very much for the e-mail and above post.

This is very cool. As you know, Lightroom and Capture One can't do some of the things that your ExifTool commands do. As a Lightroom user yourself, that's presumably why you're using ExifTool. Even if those apps could do the same thing, your commands would do the job faster. This is a classic situation where using a terminal provides more options than, and is noticeably faster than, a graphical user interface.

You note that this set of commands is for Mac/Linux. I think that it's highly likely that the substantive ExifTool commands (everything after ## Exif information for image in your post) would be the same, or nearly so, for Windows. As you say in your e-mail, some Mac users may not use the initial command about "export PATH", which relates to an approach to using ExifTool rather than to ExifTool itself. Of those that do use that command, its content will vary from user to user.

[Mark Sawyer]

Maybe we need a new thread, What will happen to your exif data in "the end"?

[Bernice Loui]

“We're all just walking each other home.”

― Ram Dass

[Tin Can]

Hotel California

We can never leave

😎





“We're all just walking each other home.”

― Ram Dass

[jnantz]

Maybe we need a new thread, What will happen to your exif data in "the end"?

there's going to be a solar flare / electric magnetic pulse soon and all the exif data will be lost like most everything else. (said like Alvie Singer )

[Drew Wiley]

Well, solar flares are a real concerns. And it won't be long till strategic weaponry is capable of doing something similar, and crippling all kinds of electronics and satellite functions in a catastrophic manner mere hackers can't. And with so much military capability and financial transactions now totally dependent upon digital electronics ... whatever happened to the common-sense folk adage, Don't put all your eggs in one basket?

Time to start seeking out caves, and copying our photos on cave walls using charcoal and red ochre. That might be the only true archival option.

[r.e.]

I've been working on a new IPTC template and the one in the screen capture below is close to final. It's much shorter than the standard IPTC template, and includes fields that don't exist in programmes like Lightroom and Capture One, but may interest analogue photographers. I made the new fields by repurposing a few of the many IPTC fields that a pro sports photographer may need, but I don't. I'm satisfied that this repurposing has no adverse impact on search. I made the template in Photo Mechanic.*

I've also had a follow-up exchange with Patrick (see his post #76 and following). He has offered to share information on the system that he uses to catalogue his photographs. I'm much obliged. I think that he knows a lot about this.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a few optimistic posts in a thread that some people have openly, and accurately, described as depressing :)


* The fields at the top of the right hand side of the template reflect the IPTC's "new" approach to recording location. The idea is to take into account the fact that a camera and its subject may be in different places. The fields are set up so that one can record that a photograph of Manhattan was taken from Queens or Brooklyn or Staten Island or New Jersey. Note that cameras with GPS, now the norm, tell one where the camera is, but not necessarily where the mountain in the photograph is. The IPTC regards an earlier set of location fields that can't record this distinction, although that set is still widely used, as "legacy".

The boxes in the template with upside-down triangles bring up drop-down menus that can be used to populate fields with mouse clicks. The world globe symbols in the location fields do reverse geocoding, translating lat/long co-ordinates into human understanding of place.

I still have some refining to do. For example, I'll replace the "Max. Image Dimensions" field with a repurposed field that lets me choose via drop-down menu and mouse click any of my cameras' full-size image dimensions, from Leica M3 to iPhone to 8x10. This will save time over inputting the width and height each time.


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[bob carnie]

Well, solar flares are a real concerns. And it won't be long till strategic weaponry is capable of doing something similar, and crippling all kinds of electronics and satellite functions in a catastrophic manner mere hackers can't. And with so much military capability and financial transactions now totally dependent upon digital electronics ... whatever happened to the common-sense folk adage, Don't put all your eggs in one basket?

Time to start seeking out caves, and copying our photos on cave walls using charcoal and red ochre. That might be the only true archival option.

Finally after all these years of babble from you Drew I finally agree with you, I hope to find a good yellow, magenta and cyan on those cave walls

[Drew Wiley]

More likely yellow ochre, red ochre, and chromium oxide sorta green. You should take the little Artist's Palette Drive loop in Death Valley sometime and see in person what kinds of colorants survive UV and the elements for hundreds of thousands of years or more. Pretty much the same look as the surface of Mars except for some vivid off-cyan.

[bob carnie]

More likely yellow ochre, red ochre, and chromium oxide sorta green. You should take the little Artist's Palette Drive loop in Death Valley sometime and see in person what kinds of colorants survive UV and the elements for hundreds of thousands of years or more. Pretty much the same look as the surface of Mars except for some vivid off-cyan.

Funny you mention this, I am coming out to Taos NM this fall to take a course on pigment production with The Pigment Hunter. I am really interested in being able to produce my own pigments as well we will use pigments for staining our wood frames. I think he moved to this region to be able to test his pigments in direct sunlight, he is originally from Portland Area where he scours the region for pigments, I will not be that guy but rather start looking for pigments from all over the world to grind down and create prints with.

[Mark Sawyer]

It's all just leading to a "cave paintings are dead, everyone's doing frescoes" argument.


I am really interested in being able to produce my own pigments as well we will use pigments for staining our wood frames.

Have you also considered potassium dichromate as a wood stain?

[Drew Wiley]

Wood pigments and stains? - a complicated subject in its own right, with more variables than most realize. You think you got it right, and a few years down the line, what you stained will look a lot different. Oh my, you are a babe in the woods, Bob. Just like a watercolorist has to know a lot about not only pigments, but the behavior of papers, likewise, colorizing wood requires a knowledge of how any specific variety of wood itself ages and changes color after it's cut and surfaced (unless you're dealing with downright opaque colorants like paint or Black Cat ink). But you will probably have some fun at this, so why not? I'll send you a postcard while you're lingering in some Iranian prison for trying to smuggle out minerals.

I have one of my aunt's master sets of pigments, hand-ground from all over the world. Some of the ingredients are more expensive per ounce than gold, but wouldn't be worth a damn for staining wood. There's a whole industry dedicated to that. I interacted quite a bit with the wood finishes R&D division of Akzo Nobel. They own the finest grinding pigment mills in the world. But do-it yourself-wise, please recognize that numerous natural mineral greens, blues, and true reds can be mildly to seriously toxic, so a dust mask and rubber gloves are a good idea, and careful cleanup afterwards - NO shop vacs!

I do have a big "brick" of paleo red oxide, with finger indentations on one side, and plant fiber brush marks on the other side. At some point over the centuries or millennia, a fire was built over it, so it's as now hard as a rock, essentially a fossil, truly "archival".

[Vaughn]

The study of the aging of the wood of Japanese temples is quite interesting -- especially the cedar of support pillars. My son was doing a little (literature) research on it while I was visiting him in Kyoto several years back. Over the centuries, the wood has increased in strength (but more brittle, I believe -- no free lunch). Totally off topic, but someone mentioned wood...

Drew -- if The Pigment Hunter is still alive and healthy, hopefully we can assume he knows, uses, and teaches the proper handling and use of earth pigments. Uranium toning, anyone? :cool:

[Mark Sawyer]

Uranium toning, anyone? :cool:

I did uranium prints for several years in the late 1970s, and I'm still alive and kicking! (Still hoping I develop those latent super-powers someday...)

Some modern Japanese field cameras are made from 600-year-old cherry wood from Buddhist monasteries. Usually, when I hear "Japanese", I think "oh, modern high-tech crap". But sometimes, like Uma Thurman, I think to myself, "I need Japanese steel..."

Talk about thread drift...

[bob carnie]

It's all just leading to a "cave paintings are dead, everyone's doing frescoes" argument.



Have you also considered potassium dichromate as a wood stain?

No - please elaborate never heard of this.

[bob carnie]

Wood pigments and stains? - a complicated subject in its own right, with more variables than most realize. You think you got it right, and a few years down the line, what you stained will look a lot different. Oh my, you are a babe in the woods, Bob. Just like a watercolorist has to know a lot about not only pigments, but the behavior of papers, likewise, colorizing wood requires a knowledge of how any specific variety of wood itself ages and changes color after it's cut and surfaced (unless you're dealing with downright opaque colorants like paint or Black Cat ink). But you will probably have some fun at this, so why not? I'll send you a postcard while you're lingering in some Iranian prison for trying to smuggle out minerals.

I have one of my aunt's master sets of pigments, hand-ground from all over the world. Some of the ingredients are more expensive per ounce than gold, but wouldn't be worth a damn for staining wood. There's a whole industry dedicated to that. I interacted quite a bit with the wood finishes R&D division of Akzo Nobel. They own the finest grinding pigment mills in the world. But do-it yourself-wise, please recognize that numerous natural mineral greens, blues, and true reds can be mildly to seriously toxic, so a dust mask and rubber gloves are a good idea, and careful cleanup afterwards - NO shop vacs!

I do have a big "brick" of paleo red oxide, with finger indentations on one side, and plant fiber brush marks on the other side. At some point over the centuries or millennia, a fire was built over it, so it's as now hard as a rock, essentially a fossil, truly "archival".

I have gone down many wormholes in my career , I like the idea of learning more about pigments than what Epson or Daniel Smith will tell us, I have never been shy about asking somewhat naive questions and following an idea. I do not know where this will lead me, if I can end up making my own pigments for my prints I will be happy, the staining of wood is for my framemaker to study further, she has an art degree and 4 years working at one of Canadas premier frame shops, I think its a worthy area to follow. When in jail please do not try
to commando me out , I would never hear the end of it from you.

[Drew Wiley]

Vaughn - I had long-term customers who lived in Japan to apprentice under temple builders and learned traditional nail-less woodworking techniques, then returned here. I'm imported a number of specialty tools from Japan for them. At the present, there is still one local dealer specializing in such items, though not the power equipment side of it I dealt with. Another close friend of mine worked with the restoration team in the Forbidden City in Beijing for a couple years learning ancient techniques. But my own start was doing restoration of wood in Julia Morgan buildings here. She employed the same superb craftsmen locally as for Hearst Castle, many from Europe. They knew the properties of wood better than people today, at least in terms of how things age with respect to dimensional stability, fit, and color shift.

I also have a little 100ml bottle of uranyl nitrate on hand, used as an experimental dye mordant. Nothing glows yet. Just for fun, I left a scrap of b&w darkroom paper under it for awhile, and it didn't even fog. The radiation was too weak to pass through the bottle glass.

[Vaughn]

See -- if we built temples instead of making photos, we would not be worrying (in terms of a century or two) about our work needing to be 'saved'.
Or we could work in ceramics. I just have to worry about dropping a piece my son sent me from Japan -- no fading to worry about!

[Drew Wiley]

Ceramics? That brings up one of the things my friend discovered. The tiles of the Forbidden city take six months to make (in batches, of course). And the type of stucco involved is made similarly. It's all based on intense manual labor. The material uses duck egg albumen binder and either human or horse hair reinforcement, then is layered up and hand polished afterwards. Darn near unbreakable. The palaces and temples use interlocking joinery devoid of glue or any kind of fasteners or nails - kinda a Rubik's Cube concept using extremely solid hardwoods which were floated almost 2000 miles on great barges on the Grand Canal during the Ming Dynasty. But the end result is more earthquake resistant than any kind modern architecture. The Achilles heel is fire. It's amazing what can be done if you've got hundreds of thousands of workers in fear of having their heads lopped off, and willing to work 16 hours a day for a bowl of rice. Nearly as difficult as carbon printing!

Of course, photo printing on ceramics is now routine. But the clue goes way back in time; for instance, how in the Southwest agave vinegar (acetic acid), along with tree sap resist, was used to etch images on clamshell material. Now we can do that much faster because we have CocaCola and Mountain Dew (carbonic acid).

[paulbarden]

My "other career" was in rose hybridizing (suspended shortly after the financial collapse, which brought the ornamental horticulture industry to its knees), and I have about 25 varieties in commerce. Of course, only a few will still be around in 50 years, but there are two that are likely to be grown in people's gardens for at least the next 50-100 years. One may in fact be my legacy, and will far outlive any work I ever did making photographs; I'm sure all of that will be forgotten five seconds after I'm dead.

[Capt. E]

I think of two extremes in the fine-art world: Ansel Adams and Brett Weston. Adams gave his archive to Arizona State with the idea that advanced students could use his negatives with new printing technology etc etc. Weston burned all his negatives and left us only the prints he had made. I will probably donate some to our County Historical Society. Giving my prints to friends etc is a good idea. I do have a few historically significant photos where prints and negatives should stay together.

[Drew Wiley]

I imagine Adams would be rolling over in his grave by now, regretting he didn't burn his own negatives, were it not for the fact all the ensuing licensed reproductions of his work have attempted to faithfully replicate his own manner of rendering those images, and have not resorted to something goofy. Otherwise, who would ever pay for something to hang on their walls, or enjoy in a book. Students can always go make their own negatives. Serious pros are the ones doing the press reproductions, along with Alan Ross making actual prints from some of the original negs, based on how AA specifically coached him to do it. Borrowing from his own analogy, there's no need for a Beethoven score to be performed by a junior high marching band. If we want Beethoven to roll over in his grave, at least let Chuck Berry cause it.

[Mark Sawyer]

No - please elaborate never heard of this.

Potassium dichromate was the go-to staining agent for wood for centuries. I'd bet a lot of our older cameras were stained with it.

Actually, it's not a stain, it's an oxidizer that darkens the natural tannins in the wood. The Dichromate is a bit toxic, so handle with care. But the results can be beautiful, it has a place in history, and as potassium dichromate has multiple uses in photography, you may have some around. Google it and you'll find many references:

https://www.woodworkersjournal.com/using-potassium-dichromate-to-stain-cherry/

https://www.lumberjocks.com/alindobra/blog/20036

[bob carnie]

Potassium dichromate was the go-to staining agent for wood for centuries. I'd bet a lot of our older cameras were stained with it.

Actually, it's not a stain, it's an oxidizer that darkens the natural tannins in the wood. The Dichromate is a bit toxic, so handle with care. But the results can be beautiful, it has a place in history, and as potassium dichromate has multiple uses in photography, you may have some around. Google it and you'll find many references:

https://www.woodworkersjournal.com/using-potassium-dichromate-to-stain-cherry/

https://www.lumberjocks.com/alindobra/blog/20036

I actually use Ammonium Dichromate but can easily try potassium we are use in working with this material here. Thank you so much as this may explain further to me how dichromate works with Tree Sap and hardens it with exposure to light.

Thanks for the links I think they are very helpful
Bob

So sorry to the OP for taking this thread off course, I think I will start a pigment thread.

[Drew Wiley]

That technique is called "ebonizing". But there are much safer and less expensive formulas than the dichromate route, easily searched on the web. The wood itself needs a high tannic acid content. So some wood species darken far more than others. But using such a solution also raises the grain, so you have to polish or fine sand everything down again afterward, prior to a final sealant. A major wholesale frame factory in this area had a lot of demand for that, with one employee dedicated to it almost full time. But due to the substantial extra cost of the appropriate hardwoods, as well as extra labor expense, they eventually switched entirely to Black Cat ink for their opaque black wooden frames. However, a partial chemical ebonizing might simulate ammonia fuming of white oak without the awful health risk involved with that.

Now as per that linked insane "death wish" toxic voodoo method of enhancing cherry ... escape the Medieval Inquisition torture chamber and acquire a modern transoxide colored sealant. I've used something called Cetol 1 for both personal picture framing and cabinetry needs, as well as massive architectural restorations (including one entire Frank Lloyd house, inside and out, plus furniture - a six million dollar renovation project). It's totally lightfast, truly transparent, penetrates deeply, and is dispersed in oil sealant, so allow it to thoroughly outgas before putting artwork in the frame. There is also a water-based equivalent, but it's not as deluxe to apply.

And yeah, it might be nice to section all this off to a separate thread.

[Bernice Loui]

Brett Weston's Obituary from 1993 SF chron..

229169

229170


Bernice



Brett did have a plan; it was to destroy all of his negatives when he turned 80. It was a decision he made at the conclusion of spending a year printing from 800+ of Edward's negatives (the Print Project.) --- only Brett would ever print his own negatives.

The burning of his negatives has been somewhat exaggerated. Actually, the destruction began months before his birthday as the negatives were soaked in bins of water and hauled to the county dump in Salinas. The few he threw into his fireplace on birthday morning were for show and the benefit of an international press looking on. Brett always enjoyed the theatrical!

As to what remain of his negatives, Brett was finally convinced by two close friends to save a few for student study. They spent time in his negative vault, ultimately saving about sixty negatives. The corners were cut. On the evening of his birthday party at Stonepine Resort, I recall Cole parading around with about a dozen famous negatives that had been hole punched. They, and I assume those from the vault, reside at the Center for Creative Photography in Tucson.

You are fortunate to have some of Brett's prints to enjoy; I too!

[Bernice Loui]

Appears some of Ansel Adam's negatives were canceled via a Wells Fargo Check canceling machine.. per Alan Ross.

229171


Bernice




I think of two extremes in the fine-art world: Ansel Adams and Brett Weston. Adams gave his archive to Arizona State with the idea that advanced students could use his negatives with new printing technology etc etc. Weston burned all his negatives and left us only the prints he had made. I will probably donate some to our County Historical Society. Giving my prints to friends etc is a good idea. I do have a few historically significant photos where prints and negatives should stay together.

[Tin Can]

Nobody listens to what the dead want

We constantly dig up bodies, Pyramids, sacred native bodies, artifacts

I look at Earth as a vast graveyard made of all life, dust to dust

What 'value added' has any human done?

Today I found, my nephew is now a lonely terrified niece

I must help her NOW

but how

[Bernice Loui]

Sharing your most valuable resource.... your time and all that comes with your time.


Bernice





Today I found, my nephew is now a lonely terrified niece

I must help her NOW

but how

[Tin Can]

Thank you


Sharing your most valuable resource.... your time and all that comes with your time.


Bernice

[Merg Ross]

There is something to be said for the preservation of historically significant negatives and prints. My story:

Several years ago I had the opportunity to rescue a large archive of historical negatives that was likely destined for the dump. A long story, that I will shorten by saying the task fell to me by an unexpected death of an estate executor.

The archive in question is namely the Ed Kirwan ASUC Photograph Archive. Ed hired me when I was twenty as a photographer and photo finisher to work in the ASUC Graphic Arts Department at the University of California, Berkeley. It was my introduction to commercial and press photography; I was fortunate to have Ed's patient guidance, and that of a co-worker who had graduated from Brooks Institute of Photography. For the next ten years Ed was my supervisor until I departed to begin a freelance career. He taught me most of what I know about photography.

Before retiring, Ed had arranged with the University to become sole owner of the large photo archive documenting fifty years of campus activities. He moved the entire archive of 500,000 negatives to the garage of his East Bay home. Ed died in 2015 at the age 0f 92. A short time later his son unexpectedly died.

By an unusual circumstance, a friend of Ed's family learned that I had worked for him in the 1960's and 70's. She contacted me with great concern about the fate of the negatives, believing they night be of some value. She had no idea how to proceed. I immediately thought of the Bancroft Library situated on the UC campus, and contacted them. A week later I met two of their archivists at the garage. They were excited; you would have thought they had discovered gold! I explained Ed's filing system to them so that they understood exactly what they were getting.

The following week a large truck arrived to transport 153 boxes of negatives to the University. They contained ten years worth of my negatives, including those from the day I photographed Ansel receiving his honorary degree from the University. For me, it was a wonderful farewell as the truck departed, taking the collection in Ed's name to a good home.


https://oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/c8dv1rxf/

[r.e.]

The archive in question is namely the Ed Kirwan ASUC Photograph Archive. Ed hired me when I was twenty as a photographer and photo finisher to work in the ASUC Graphic Arts Department at the University of California, Berkeley. ... For the next ten years Ed was my supervisor until I departed to begin a freelance career. He taught me most of what I know about photography.

By an unusual circumstance, a friend of Ed's family learned that I had worked for him in the 1960's and 70's.

As I understand it, the ASUC is the Berkeley Students' Association. I would think that there might be some pretty interesting photographs in that archive, especially from the early to late 1960s.

1960s Berkeley Protests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s_Berkeley_protests

[David Lindquist]

Thank you so much for this Merg. I remember the name Ed Kirwan, glad to hear the archive was taken in by the Bancroft Library.

Yes r.e., ASUC was the "Associated Students (of the) University (of) California", often pronounced "A-Suck", not sure why, maybe just youthful cynicism at a time when that was growing. It was a long time ago in more ways than one...

David
UC Berkeley Class of '66
(A bad year to run out your student deferment)

[Joe O'Hara]

I hope to print portfolios for my sons -- am thinking about including the negatives with the portfolios.

I have made one copy, mounted, of my best print of my favorite pictures. They are in boxes in a closet in my house, maybe 60-80 prints (I've never produced a lot of work). Aside from a few photographers (some here), whose comments were much appreciated, not many seemed to have cared much for my work. That is OK; I always did this for myself. I have no sense of futility or wasted effort-- for whatever it's worth, my pictures are evidence that I saw the world in a certain way. Photography has certainly helped me to see it, and appreciate its beauty and mystery. I am grateful for that every day, whether I'm out with a camera (increasingly rare) or not.

Perhaps my grandchildren (teenagers now) will find them interesting in time, but I'm not counting on it. What happens to the prints then is up to them. The negatives, I am sure, will end up in the Burlington County landfill. So be it. Sic transit gloria mundi, amen.

[Vaughn]

Excellent, Joe.

I have always been involved with some form of education for the entire period of being a photographer. Directing my own educational efforts, of course, but helping students and peers as a matter of course since my first photo class in 1978 as a 23 yrs old.

Add that to ego, I enjoy having work available for random people (and friends) to view under good lighting by being a member of a local art cooperative (w/ gallery). I have a tiny photo of me with my 8x10 with a description of the process used (and why) near my framed work. It is always interesting seeing how people react to my work as they circle the gallery when I am working there. I occasionally talk about the work if there is the interest shown. Since the work is anything from medium format to 11x14 platinum/palladium prints, I have a few magnifying glasses out if people wish to see the detail -- so it is fun to see who picks up them up.

The cooperative has been operating since June 2003...so I have had thousands of people look at my work -- or walk right by it -- over these 20 years. So yes, my appreciation of how others perceive my work, on many different levels, is very important to me. It is one of the many reasons I am a photographic artist.

I have always disliked the saying, "...and those who cannot, teach." The ones who can do it, who understand it, and can communicate it, are the teachers. The rest are instructors.

[Merg Ross]

Thank you so much for this Merg. I remember the name Ed Kirwan, glad to hear the archive was taken in by the Bancroft Library.

Yes r.e., ASUC was the "Associated Students (of the) University (of) California", often pronounced "A-Suck", not sure why, maybe just youthful cynicism at a time when that was growing. It was a long time ago in more ways than one...

David
UC Berkeley Class of '66
(A bad year to run out your student deferment)


David, it appears we may have crossed paths on the UC campus. However, as my job with ASUC Graphic Arts was full-time, I took evening classes at Merritt College.

When I was hired in 1961, among my duties was making prints for publication of the 500 plus page 1962 Blue & Gold Yearbook. That was the year President Kennedy gave his Charter Day speech to a crowd of 80,000 at Memorial Stadium. Ed and I were cleared by Secret Service to photograph in the procession of dignitaries. During the speech, I photographed an overall view from the press box using 4x5 Ektachrome and a Speed Graphic fitted with a 90mm Angulon. It was an exciting day for this twenty year-old. Little did I know, that eighteen months later the president would be my commander-in-chief. I was drafted into the Army in 1963.

The link from r.e. reminds me of those turbulent times around Berkeley and the campus. The most dangerous event I covered was the deadly People's Park Protest in 1969. It was an ugly affair, utilizing the National Guard, police with shotguns, and aerial tear gas attacks. The event is well documented in the Ed Kirwan ASUC Photograph Archive.

Indeed, a long time ago in more ways than one.