How to mount a Goerz Artar 10 3/4 inch in a shutter?

[PunkFunkDunk]

I have searched the forum but could not find the answer to my query.

Basically, I have purchased a good copy of a Goerz Apochromatic Artar 10 3/4 inch in barrel mount with flange. It is the post-war, coated, non-Red Dot version from circa 1948-1954 according to serial number. A Goerz catalogue from 1951 states that it takes a Compur 1MX or Ilex Acme 3 shutter. I can find decent copies of both shutters for sale online and I am willing to take a risk to pick one up to see if the lens will mount.

The lens barrel unscrews into three parts: a small rear part, containing two glass elements; a small front part, containing two more glass elements; and a larger middle part, containing the iris.

However, what I do not understand is what happens to the middle part of the lens (the iris) when mounting on a shutter given the shutters come with their own iris? Am I supposed to discard the iris from the lens and just mount the front and rear glass elements to ether side of the shutter? Or, can I screw the front and middle part of the lens into the front of the shutter and screw the rear into the rear? The latter would mean that the assembly would then have two irises, but am I wrong is assuming that is OK so long as I control the lens iris for exposure while always keeping the shutter iris wide open? Is this what is meant by “front mounting”, a term I have seen referred to in this forum?

Lastly, other than the difference in how the shutter is cocked, is there any difference in front and rear mount screw thread size between an Ilex Acme 3 and an Ilex Universal 3?

This is my first time trying to mount a barrel lens to a shutter so any informed advice would be much appreciated.

Regards.


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[Dugan]

I had one of those exact lenses, and had S. K. Grimes mount it in a Copal #1 shutter.
It required machine work to fit...lens spacing is critical.
Check SK Grimes website, there is a chart that says what shutters that they can adapt that lens to.
Their website has a lot of info under "Lens Mounting into Shutters" and will be able to answer your questions.
The Ilex Acme #3 and Ilex Universal #3 use the same lens thread size and flange thread size.
One is self cocking, the other is two-step cocking.

[PunkFunkDunk]

I had one of those exact lenses.

Thanks for the tip. I will look them up.

Out of interest, how did you find this particular Artar for use in portraits (if ever)?


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[Conrad . Marvin]

I had a 10 3/4” red dot Artar mounted in a #1 Copal shutter for many years and wish that I had kept it. The rear lens element was just big enough that I had to remove the rear element to take it off of the lens board. How many times do you have to remove a lens from its board? So I always forgot and had to back track…the #3 Ilex shutter that I own is Very different than a Copal # 1 so don’t assume anything. Good luck and enjoy!

[martiansea]

I use barrel lenses like this with a Packard shutter. I mounted the shutter on a lens board, then made various smaller sub-boards to mount the lenses on that fit on the main board. It makes a fast reliable system for swapping all kinds of lenses easily. I realize some people are turned off by Packard shutters, because of the lack of various precise speeds, but I personally have come to love it. When so many LF shots are made with the "B" setting anyway, it's hard to resist.

[Dugan]

I never used my Artar for portraits, sorry.

[PunkFunkDunk]

I will look into a Packard-Ideal shutter too as I want to avoid a modern Copal since I want to retain a large number of ours blades


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[PunkFunkDunk]

My back up option if all of this is too costly is to simply buy a variable ND filter so that I can reduce exposure times to a few seconds for manual “lens cap over the lens” method. Does anyone know the filter thread and pitch of this particular Artar?


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[Dugan]

Since those lenses were mostly intended for pre-press printing/ halftone/etc. photography, they weren't really set up for screw-in filters...the threads serve to assemble the lens elements in the barrel.
A slip-on filter holder with Series filters would probably be the best 'bang for the buck'...either that, or a gel holder.

[Mark Sampson]

Goers Artars are very sharp lenses with slightly lower contrast than lenses made in the last 40 years. They cover about 45 degrees- so this lens will work well on 4x5, might cover 5x7. A Packard shutter is your best bet here, at least to start... that way you can see if you like the lens' rendition without spending serious money for the #3 shutter and the (very fine) work by SKG.

[senderoaburrido]

My back up option if all of this is too costly is to simply buy a variable ND filter so that I can reduce exposure times to a few seconds for manual “lens cap over the lens” method. Does anyone know the filter thread and pitch of this particular Artar?


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I have exactly the same lens and am attempting to front-mount it to a Copal 3S. I'll include here pictures of the caliper measurement for the rear thread, and the front. 228873228874228874
Curious sizes on both ends. Not sure if lenses of this era had metric threading with imperial focal lengths.

[Dugan]

customphototools.com is the website of the machinist in Portugal.

[PunkFunkDunk]

I have exactly the same lens and am attempting to front-mount it to a Copal 3S. I'll include here pictures of the caliper measurement for the rear thread, and the front. 228873228874228874
Curious sizes on both ends. Not sure if lenses of this era had metric threading with imperial focal lengths.

Thanks for the measurements. As it turns out I purchased a cheap 39mm lens hood with standard 0.75 pitch thread to see if it would fit the front of this lens. That way I would know for certain that a modern ND filter of the same size would fit. Alas, it is close but it does not fit. My guess is that the front lens thread is approximately 40mm in diameter and likely has an older threads per inch thread. Hence my plan to use a ND filter will not work. But thanks anyway.


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[senderoaburrido]

Now that I've looked at it many times over, I am almost certain that it is some now-uncommon (by way of most camera equipment post 60's being metric in dimensions) imperial threading. Another guy here managed to gently force a 40mm filter to fit. If there was any difficulty at all, it's likely not 40mm. I'm thinking about getting a thread measurement tool to investigate, however I'd need to have some idea of the angle of the threads to begin with. Each kit is targeted for a 5 degree range.

[Steve Goldstein]

Regarding post #8 (front filter size), on a hunch I just checked my very late (s/n 828xxx) 10-3/4" RDA in barrel. It accepts a 40mm (not 40.5!) filter, same as my 8-1/4 RDA s/n 816xxx. This unusual size was used on some Canon LTM lenses and I don't know what else.

A few months ago I purchased a 40-49 step-up ring from SRB Photographic in England for my 8-1/4, I'll probably get another just to have it for my 10-3/4.

Physical sizes seem to have changed over the years - the 40mm step-up is slightly too large for an older (s/n 762xxx) 10-3/4 RDA I tried. I'll try a 39mm filter if I ever happen upon one.

[senderoaburrido]

Regarding post #8 (front filter size), on a hunch I just checked my very late (s/n 828xxx) 10-3/4" RDA in barrel. It accepts a 40mm (not 40.5!) filter, same as my 8-1/4 RDA s/n 816xxx. This unusual size was used on some Canon LTM lenses and I don't know what else.

A few months ago I purchased a 40-49 step-up ring from SRB Photographic in England for my 8-1/4, I'll probably get another just to have it for my 10-3/4.

Physical sizes seem to have changed over the years - the 40mm step-up is slightly too large for an older (s/n 762xxx) 10-3/4 RDA I tried. I'll try a 39mm filter if I ever happen upon one.

You're certain it threads smoothly? Mine is also in the 800,000 range; 808xxx. The front thread is damaged. Now you're making me wonder if the rear thread is also metric. I sent some measurements to Rafcamera and he seems to think it's M45.5x1. I'm not sure what to think on that front, I'd prefer to measure it myself somehow.

[Steve Goldstein]

You're certain it threads smoothly?

Yes, like a hot knife through butter on both my 8-1/4 and my 10-3/4, like any other filter on any other lens with undamaged threads. It screws in all the way with no change in force throughout its travel.

[senderoaburrido]

Then I suppose that this implies the rear thread is also metric.

[Steve Goldstein]

Hard to say. I just measured across the outside of the mounting threads with a vernier and got 1.785” (45.34mm). I don’t have a proper thread measurement tool but the pitch appears very close to 1mm.

[Joseph Kashi]

My Goerz America 10 3/4" RD Artar came mounted in a Compur 1 MX shutter. I don't know whether this was a factory mount, but it fits neatly and compactly, FWIW.

[senderoaburrido]

For the record, according to S.K. Grimes:

The Goerz lenses use English thread sizes. The closer measurement for the M46 would be 1.787" x T25.
So it seems that it is in imperial after all.

[PunkFunkDunk]

Useful. Thanks.


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[Bernice Loui]

Goerz America lenses would be made with imperial or inch standards given these lenses were made in the US of A and the time when they were made would make this so. Same applies to other US of A made lenses like Kodak.

Know 1mm thread pitch = 25.4mm or about 25 to 26 threads per inch. This is why a 1mm thread pitch ~might~ work with 25 or 26 threads per inch threads. Both thread forms have 60 degree angle making them similar in that way.


Bernice