Which paper is closest to graded Brilliant (Guillemot version).

[Fred L]

Working on some boxes of the older Brilliant Paper (made by Guillemot) and was wondering if anyone has experience with current papers that tone the same at the Brilliant, esp the slight aubergine cast it gets in selenium.

At this point, I would pay more for a paper that was very similar in characteristic.


tia

[Mark Sampson]

I used that paper, and I can't think of any current emulsion that has that look. I recently bought a package of Bergger double-weight glossy, but have not been able to test it properly yet. It's made in England; I assume that it's different than Ilford Multigrade, but we'll see.
As I recall, Brilliant had no optical brighteners in it. That alone would separate it from any paper I know of today. I did try one package of Adox MCC110; I really liked that paper but the company is not currently producing it.
Manufacturers discontinuing photographers' favorite papers has been happening for over a hundred years.

[Alan9940]

I would say selenium toned Adox MCC110 would probably come the closet, but that paper hasn't been readily available for quite a while now. Probably the next closest would be Adox Lupex developed in Amidol, but that's a very slow paper that cannot easily be used for enlargements; I use it for 8x10 contact prints exposed with a 250w flood. Oh, how I wish I held on to the nearly 2K sheets of Ilford Ilfobrom and Zone VI Brilliant I had in the freezer just before moving across the country. Gave it all away to the photo department of the local high school.

[Fred L]

thanks all. The stock I'm currently using is showing very slight bas fog so guess my next step is maybe add some benzotriazole. that or do selective bleaching on the highlight areas I want to keep bright.

I was also thinking Adox, but it seems to be in perpetual limbo. While I really like Bergger neutral, I haven't been able to get that aubergine cast. it does change slightly so maybe need to either let it sit in selenium longer, or maybe bump up the dilution ?

[lloyd]

nearly 2K sheets of Ilford Ilfobrom and Zone VI Brilliant I had in the freezer just before moving across the country. Gave it all away

ouch, my 2 favorite papers

[Drew Wiley]

There is nothing really similar. But there are some excellent VC papers out there that will give you quite a bit of depth of punch themselves, and are a lot easier to use than Z VI Graded Bromide. Berrger VC neutral tone can be coaxed the cold direction with gold toning and has a rich DMax, but then more resembles classic Seagull G than Brilliant. MC110 is even more purplish than Brilliant, perhaps the closest in image tone, but also less flexible in that respect, so no substitute in my opinion. Ilford MG Warmtone perhaps has the richest DMax when toned, reminiscent in that respect of good ole Brilliant. But there was a subtle kind of almost 3D effect to the deep Brilliant emulsion I've never encountered since.

[bob carnie]

This conversation is interesting, I was a Brilliant user and of course have all the Picker Books and notes. I may be committing a mortal sin here but in the last year of availability I believe the brilliant was impossible to get and the decision was made to replace the paper. This replacement was not the same, close but not the same, for a year the group selling it swore it was brilliant but I was not convinced. I went out and bought some cold tone Ilford neutral paper and tested it against this so called Brilliant- dead nuts match in exposure time , , dry down and visual comparison to the so called Brilliant. I was so pissed and from that moment on moved to other papers.
I would suggest to Fred that the new Ilford nuetral paper or cool tone paper may be a pretty much best choice. I agree with Drew that the Ilford Warmtone emulsion is pretty much the best out there right now, There was a suggestion about the Lupex which may be super but it requires longer exposures, Fred do you need the big camera back so you can do contacts.?

[Fred L]

hey Bob, I'm ok for now so if you still need to use the Intrepid, that's cool.

[Alan9940]

No question that the Brilliant paper changed toward the end. Didn't matter to me because I had an ample stock of the "real" Brilliant in my freezer at the time. I, too, agree with Drew that Ilford WT is about the best out there right now; it's my primary paper nowadays when doing enlargements. I mentioned Adox Lupex because IMO it's a beautiful paper with good dMax and just a hint of warmth. But, it has a narrow usage in that it's for contact printing only requiring a lot of light. I use it only for 8x10 contact prints.

[Bernice Loui]

This B&W paper?
227785

Still have some from the 1990's, it was GOOD. Think by the late 1990's this Zone VI paper became No Longer Available.

There was a time when absolutely Excellent B&W print papers were available at reasonable cost. Other notable B&W print papers, Graded Oriental, Graded Agfa Insigna "fine art" which was a semi-warm tone, Dupont, Kodak and Ilford.

Seems B&W print papers peaked about 1980, then all went down hill due to the rise of "color"..


Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

The redux ZS Brilliant was marketed by Calumet. Not the same thing at all; not even close. And I miss the classic graded papers from before the Triassic asteroid hit the earth (esp Brilliant Bromide, original Seagull G, and Portriga). Today's premium VC papers are not only a lot easier to use, but have unquestionably come of age. Still ... I stumbled onto an old Brilliant print a few months ago I never got around to toning, souped it in some gold toner for deep cold black, and wow. DMaxxxx is an understatement.

[Michael R]

Hmmm. Out of curiosity approximately when was this version of the paper in production?


The redux ZS Brilliant was marketed by Calumet. Not the same thing at all; not even close. And I miss the classic graded papers from before the Triassic asteroid hit the earth (esp Brilliant Bromide, original Seagull G, and Portriga). Today's premium VC papers are not only a lot easier to use, but have unquestionably come of age. Still ... I stumbled onto an old Brilliant print a few months ago I never got around to toning, souped it in some gold toner for deep cold black, and wow. DMaxxxx is an understatement.

[Drew Wiley]

Ohh ... that's a bit hard for me to date, Michael. I've never written dates on my prints. But with respect to me, it was during that very frustrating period when all of the classic graded papers were disappearing or themselves being altered, with the exception of Ilfobrom Galerie, which I never used very much, and when VC papers were still generally disappointing. Sometime in the 80's before Forte MGIV came to the rescue. I could get the new Brilliant to cooperate if I resorted to masking the original negs, and got a number of decent prints that way; but those never resembled the Guillmont version.

[Bernice Loui]

Think the Guillmont version of Brilliant paper died just past the mid 1990's. After Calumet got the brand name "Brilliant" it became a different paper. Did not take long for the users of Guillmont Brilliant to figure this out, resulting in the Calumet version to go off market due to lack of demand. Back then, there were alternatives to the Calumet offering.


Another example of brand marketing that failed.

Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

Calumet treated all of the Zone VI acquisition like an unwanted stepchild. They were going through their own internal metamorphosis from a full service pro house to a far more narrowly defined studio supplier, predictably headed straight down the path to extinction.

[Michael R]

Thanks I was wondering if it was around in the early to mid 1980s and it sounds like it was.


Ohh ... that's a bit hard for me to date, Michael. I've never written dates on my prints. But with respect to me, it was during that very frustrating period when all of the classic graded papers were disappearing or themselves being altered, with the exception of Ilfobrom Galerie, which I never used very much, and when VC papers were still generally disappointing. Sometime in the 80's before Forte MGIV came to the rescue. I could get the new Brilliant to cooperate if I resorted to masking the original negs, and got a number of decent prints that way; but those never resembled the Guillmont version.

[Sal Santamaura]

...As I recall, Brilliant had no optical brighteners in it...

I just went into my box of test prints from the early 1990s. Fortunately, I was OCD about labeling them. Now, shining a UV light on the Brilliant Bromide ones, they glow like every other paper that contains OBAs.

OBAs have been ubiquitous for many, many decades. I can find only one gelatin silver print in the house that doesn't include them, an 8x10 of "Yosemite Valley Winter"


https://shop.anseladams.com/collections/yosemite-special-edition-photographs/products/yosemite-valley-winter?variant=31415830478915

that I purchased in 1979 or 1980. The price back then was 20% of what it is now. I've four more from that series bought not too long afterward, all of which incorporate brighteners. As does every print hanging on our walls that I've purchased from other photographers, most of which I know were made on Agfa Brovira.

None of this is intended to take anything away from French-made graded Brilliant Bromide. It was the best paper I've ever been able to print on, and I miss it more than early ADOX MCC 110 (the version that had a nice surface, not recent too-glossy batches).

[Oren Grad]

Think the Guillmont version of Brilliant paper died just past the mid 1990's.

FWIW, Calumet purchased Zone VI around 1991. R. Guilleminot, Bœspflug et Cie went out of business in 1994. I do not know when Guilleminot's production stopped.

[bob carnie]

Thanks I was wondering if it was around in the early to mid 1980s and it sounds like it was.

No more like the late 80's as I went to New York to the Brilliant booth to voice my displeasure.

[RichardRitter]

Before Calumet bought Zone VI we would buy the whole production run of the paper all grades. When Calumet took over they went to R. Guilleminot and told then they wanted a lower price and smaller shipments. That did not happen. The last paper that can in before I left Zone VI was made by Ilford and was from their plant in Spain. Calumet could not figure out why sales of the paper dropped off so fast.

[John Layton]

...wish we could get someone with truly deep pockets on board to re-create/reintroduce some "legacy" materials: Papers like the old Brilliant, Seagull, Portriga Rapid, Forte...films like Super XX, Panatomic-X, Plus-X, the Agfapans, etc, etc. Thing is, aside from the fact that there would be some legal restrictions on compounds (like cadmium), there is also real art to this process...such that even if original facilities could be pressed into service by folks with the appropriate know-how, the outcome would remain uncertain.

Edit: my idea of heaven would include endless amounts of the abovementioned materials!

[bob carnie]

Before Calumet bought Zone VI we would buy the whole production run of the paper all grades. When Calumet took over they went to R. Guilleminot and told then they wanted a lower price and smaller shipments. That did not happen. The last paper that can in before I left Zone VI was made by Ilford and was from their plant in Spain. Calumet could not figure out why sales of the paper dropped off so fast.

Thank you for clarifying , I was really bummed and I did test on the new paper and it matched Ilford exactly, when I brought it up at a booth at the big photo fair in New York I was treated like I was speaking blasphemy but I knew it was Ilford.
Not to say Ilford paper was a bad thing , just it did not have Brilliant qualities we all admired. Before Brilliant I was using Ilford Ilfomar which is the polar opposite paper but really nice nonetheless.

[bob carnie]

...wish we could get someone with truly deep pockets on board to re-create/reintroduce some "legacy" materials: Papers like the old Brilliant, Seagull, Portriga Rapid, Forte...films like Super XX, Panatomic-X, Plus-X, the Agfapans, etc, etc. Thing is, aside from the fact that there would be some legal restrictions on compounds (like cadmium), there is also real art to this process...such that even if original facilities could be pressed into service by folks with the appropriate know-how, the outcome would remain uncertain.

Edit: my idea of heaven would include endless amounts of the abovementioned materials!

The closest to this dream would be going to GEH and do a emulsion making course and making short batch papers oneself. I remember the late wonderful Ron Morery, I visited him for a day at Rochester with Mark Osterman as well
and Marks assistant at the time a young man from this forum or APUG , (not sure his background) . Ron showed me Portriga Rapid emulsions coated on paper he had made at GEH and I must say they were remarkable. I credit this group of individuals to help me focus on hand coating Pd with multiple layers of gum over, At the time I was in a quandary as to how to proceed, I was on the Colour Carbon road and it was not fitting into my aesthetics. A long conversation with Mark about the historical processes kind of got me on the right path, he probably does not remember my visit.
Ron Morery was an amazing man full of humor and willing to pass on any knowledge, I wish he was still around to hit up now and then on some of the problems I have in the darkroom.

[Drew Wiley]

I knew the replacement paper was made by ilford right from the start; that was no secret. But it was a somewhat different custom emulsion from any they offered under their own label. Any kind of announced or labeled change should raise questions what it really is. For lunch yesterday my wife foisted a veggie burger on me. But I had already seen a box of them in the freezer - some kind of coupon freebie at Safeway. She saved the real ground sirloin for the evening spaghetti sauce.

[Bernice Loui]

Some time in the 1990's Calumet opened a store in San Francisco... to service the large Foto community in SF. This was a time when studio view camera images were extremely common. Calumet offered a variety of "Calumet" brand Foto gear from filters to studio strobe systems and more beyond Caltar view camera lenses. Most of the Calumet branded stuff was middle of the road, ok enough meh. This was much the academia indoctrination of MBA management types back then as the means to increase profitability (Foto paper was Foto paper)... trading off long term viability.

Adolf Gasser remained the preferred Foto store, Sammy's camera became more involved with rentals as the need for rental gear grew. Head south into Palo Alto revealed Keeble and Shuchat Photography which was a GOOD store overall and Bear Images which was another good store.


How different it was back then,
Bernice



Calumet treated all of the Zone VI acquisition like an unwanted stepchild. They were going through their own internal metamorphosis from a full service pro house to a far more narrowly defined studio supplier, predictably headed straight down the path to extinction.

[Drew Wiley]

Traffic was different too. I could see the Bay Bridge from my office window, and then actually drive over and back to Calumet or Gasser during my lunch hour if bridge traffic was flowing freely. But Palo Alto might as well have been the far side of the moon. Gasser had well-informed pro salesmen at the LF / MF counter too. That kind of business strategy is sure a thing of the past!

[Bernice Loui]

Stop by Gasser to pick up film, burn the film, drop off the film at The New Lab-pick up the film at New Lab..

This was a common cycle back then.


Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

Custom Process was just a five minute walk across the RR tracks for me. They'd do my C41 and E6 processing, and some of my commercial C printing, but never my personal printing. They didn't do any Cibachrome at all. Sasha at both of his Ziba locations was by far the best equipped for that; but I did all my own Ciba printing too.

I just got in a fresh roll of Fujiflex Supergloss - similar look to Ciba but much easier to use; has higher contrast with wider gamut and more saturation than ordinary C prints, probably more permanent too, but somewhat pricey (yet not as expensive as Ciba). Who says optical photo printing media has declined? Yeah, I do miss Brilliant Bromide and Seagull G; but MGWT is as good as its gets for some b&w images, and Fujiflex probably the best regular color medium ever if a true gloss surface is acceptable.

[Bernice Loui]

Wozers Drew, Ziba, Sasha.. it's been decades since hearing about Ziba and Sasha..

Brings up:

Chromeworks.
Faulkner Color Lab.
Others...

Kimbo Color for "weddings"...


From a time long ago.
Bernice



Custom Process was just a five minute walk across the RR tracks for me. They'd do my C41 and E6 processing, and some of my commercial C printing, but never my personal printing. They didn't do any Cibachrome at all. Sasha at both of his Ziba locations was by far the best equipped for that; but I did all my own Ciba printing too.

[Drew Wiley]

Sasha is still extremely active in his late 70's, and still owns by far the largest studio-lab in northern CA, but now mainly uses it just as a personal gourmet food photo venue in the evenings, with digital backs on his Sinar P's, even on a big telescoping "cherry-picker" style shooting boom operating through a giant hole in the ceiling above the fancy kitchen. The rest of the time he and the same crew run his impressive commercial real estate development empire. He'll work himself to death just for the adrenaline rush.

He offered me all his optical-chemical lab gear for free, but I didn't have any space for it except for one more Durst 8x10 enlarger, so most of it went to the junkyard. He spent about 70K a month at the construction supply Co. where i worked; so we interacted several times a week. Most people from SF think of Ziba as just a little ground floor studio catty-corner from Gasser. But the entire six-story high-rise was just one of his three lab-studios. Each of his Ciba chem vats routinely held two hundred gallons apiece. Just replacing the drainage pipes before selling that building cost him 600K. Most of his business was overseas photo contracts, not local.

[Robert Brazile]

Mark's then assistant was/is Nick Brandreth; while Mark has retired, Nick is still at GEH (now GEM) but I don't think they've got in-person workshops going again yet. Mark does private workshops for those interested, and I believe Nick does as well, in addition to doing some virtual workshops via video conference.

Bob, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark remembers your conversation, he's pretty good that way. He's on his way back from Sicily right now, having taught a collodion dry plate workshop there. I believe he and his wife France Scully Osterman are thinking about the possibility of an emulsion-making + shooting workshop for later in the year. While that's focused on making dry plates, the technique is the same as for paper -- paper is just a bit simpler (no washing required, unlike for glass).

Robert Brazile

(took two emulsion-making workshops at GEH and has very much enjoyed making them ever since...)

[bob carnie]

Mark's then assistant was/is Nick Brandreth; while Mark has retired, Nick is still at GEH (now GEM) but I don't think they've got in-person workshops going again yet. Mark does private workshops for those interested, and I believe Nick does as well, in addition to doing some virtual workshops via video conference.

Bob, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark remembers your conversation, he's pretty good that way. He's on his way back from Sicily right now, having taught a collodion dry plate workshop there. I believe he and his wife France Scully Osterman are thinking about the possibility of an emulsion-making + shooting workshop for later in the year. While that's focused on making dry plates, the technique is the same as for paper -- paper is just a bit simpler (no washing required, unlike for glass).

Robert Brazile

(took two emulsion-making workshops at GEH and has very much enjoyed making them ever since...)

When I visited Mark and Ron Morey I do remember two assistants, one was Nick, but if my memory serves me correct the other young dude was a young guy from APUG or HERE who really took an interest in the process side of things
and eventually ended up for some time at GEM

I am glad you are making emulsions , If I had another lifetime I would consider silver gelatin emulsion making, I have my plate full with Pd and Gums, I do a lot of Silver, actually more now than ever but
I am making digital negs and doing contact prints. Right now the 50's, 60's and early 70's seem to be all I am printing.

[interneg]

...wish we could get someone with truly deep pockets on board to re-create/reintroduce some "legacy" materials: Papers like the old Brilliant, Seagull, Portriga Rapid, Forte...Thing is, aside from the fact that there would be some legal restrictions on compounds (like cadmium)

Firstly, it often wasn't Cd (despite various salesmen's best efforts) - that went sometime in the 1970s in many products - but often a combination of hardener changes, moves to washed emulsions (so they could go on RC papers), emulsion structure changes (to try & resolve batch-to-batch variability - and make variable contrast papers deliver a full range of contrasts), along with addenda alterations to improve VC behaviour - and several well known warmtone papers seem to have historically used lead salts to cause a particular crystal habit - and above all else, a shrinking B&W sector of the market for many decades - that caused many products to be either withdrawn or have the minimum spent to keep them on the market. Today, it is possible to use modern emulsion technology to remake many classic emulsions safely - but not profitably, unless you are OK with paying 50-100% over something like MGWT.


films like Super XX, Panatomic-X

Their replacements are better. 40+ years on people need to learn how to use T-Max films, rather than poisoning themselves with cookbooks. Despite the indignant huffing and puffing, Super-XX was replaced by better products - it was turned into a cult material because for several decades it was Kodak's only fully general purpose sheet film product - most of their competitors didn't make as many specialist products for specific market segments, thus mainly made general purpose films.


Plus-X, the Agfapans

The last (& best) version of 125PX (which finally unified 135 PX and 120 VP (same emulsion set) in one product line) might return - it would be relatively easy for Kodak to tell the emulsion computer to make it.

APX 100 returned as Adox Silvermax & seems to be having a secondary life as the underpinnings of CHS 100II (and possibly some of Orwo/ Inoviscoat's materials too) - APX 400 got adjusted at the end of the 2000's to something more Tri-X-ish, then seems to have evolved off into Bergger's 400 product & Orwo N75.

[Mark Sampson]

If you want to bring back a long-gone paper, I'd talk to Paula Chamlee. She and her late husband, Michael A. Smith, devoted a great deal of effort (and no doubt a small fortune) to make their Azo-replacement paper, Lodima. Which seems to be no longer available... I suspect that the market wasn't big enough to continue manufacturing it. And admittedly, I have no data, but I doubt that their heroic effort was profitable. Or perhaps, not profitable enough, considering the work involved.
Anyone want to make a small fortune bringing back Brilliant? Step up with your large fortune, then.

[peter schrager]

If you want to bring back a long-gone paper, I'd talk to Paula Chamlee. She and her late husband, Michael A. Smith, devoted a great deal of effort (and no doubt a small fortune) to make their Azo-replacement paper, Lodima. Which seems to be no longer available... I suspect that the market wasn't big enough to continue manufacturing it. And admittedly, I have no data, but I doubt that their heroic effort was profitable. Or perhaps, not profitable enough, considering the work involved.
Anyone want to make a small fortune bringing back Brilliant? Step up with your large fortune, then.
Actually adox lupex is available right now and you can buy it from Paula tomorrow
It'd grade 3 but it's azo for sure

[interneg]

adox lupex is available right now... grade 3 but it's azo for sure

It tends to get forgotten that modern multigrade papers seem to owe more to high chloride emulsions like Azo/ Lupex/ Lodima etc than to more 'traditional' enlarging emulsions because of the useful crystal characteristics that AgCl can deliver.

The recipe for Azo type emulsions in G2/3/4 is also in Ron Mowrey's emulsions book.

[otto.f]

Isn’t Bergger the new Guilleminot?

[Drew Wiley]

Bergger is marketing a couple nice VC papers with a bit more dive off the steep end, curve-wise, than Harman's regular papers. Their Ilford MGWT probably has equal or even more DMax after toning, but not as steep a dropoff into the shadows as what they make for the Bergger brand label. But Brilliant Bromide was more like jumping out of a plane in that respect, and with a very distinctive image tone, plus the strongest DMax I have ever seen in any graded paper. I imagine it would be prohibitively expensive to make today.

So NO; my personal opinion is that NOTHING is the modern Guillemont, or Seagull G either. But we have plenty of other excellent papers to chose from. So I can't complain.

[interneg]

Isn’t Bergger the new Guilleminot?

More or less - it was initially founded by Guilleminot's chief chemist & run by him for a number of years. What has never been totally clear is the extent to which Bergger's paper offerings were simply alterations of extant Forte formulae or derivative of Guilleminot's formulae books - and after the move to Harman Technology for the paper products, the materials do differ from Harman's own Ilford products, but that is relatively straightforward to achieve within a sophisticated emulsion design system. The films Bergger offered seem to have largely been Fortepan, then latterly Orwo/ Innoviscoat derived.

[Michael R]

I’m kind of surprised by this, Drew. I don’t think we have much to choose from. I’m not crazy about MG Classic and that’s basically my only option. WT is ok I guess but I prefer neutral papers. I don’t particularly care for the surface sheen of the cooltone paper, and what else is there? I liked Fotoimpex’s MCC-110 a lot but that’s dead. It seems to me the RC selection is a little better.

My take is that we have wonderful films at our disposal (although some of them are becoming crazy expensive), but not much paper, although I suppose I should be thankful there are still silver papers at all.

Maybe I’m wrong.


Bergger is marketing a couple nice VC papers with a bit more dive off the steep end, curve-wise, than Harman's regular papers. Their Ilford MGWT probably has equal or even more DMax after toning, but not as steep a dropoff into the shadows as what they make for the Bergger brand label. But Brilliant Bromide was more like jumping out of a plane in that respect, and with a very distinctive image tone, plus the strongest DMax I have ever seen in any graded paper. I imagine it would be prohibitively expensive to make today.

So NO; my personal opinion is that NOTHING is the modern Guillemont, or Seagull G either. But we have plenty of other excellent papers to chose from. So I can't complain.

[Drew Wiley]

I can do nearly everything I personally need by keeping only MG Cooltone and MG Warmtone on hand (strictly FB). Classic is kinda in the middle, a decent product, but neither fish nor fowl in my opinion, and not anywhere near as rich as MGWT. Bergger has that little bit of extra dive in the shadows, which sometimes works for you, sometimes against. MGWT is especially flexible when it comes to toning, so a really versatile premium paper unless consistent cold-tone neutral black is desired. MC-110 has excellent scale, but really couldn't be leveraged out of its native purplish-black zone; it split-toned OK if needed, but didn't really have the wings that MGWT does in that respect.

What I sometimes miss in modern VC papers is the alternate "snatch" development ability of good ole graded Brilliant and Seagull. I still have some graded EMaks on hand; and it might work. But VC papers simply trend to blaaahhh if prematurely pulled out of the developer. Otherwise, I think we're better off than ever, product-wise, and think MGWT is great for even contact printing. Azo never did impress me all that much, though certain people who used it certainly did.