float frames for alt prints?

[CreationBear]

I happened to run across some Youtube videos of watercolorists who use float frames to display their work, and they began by using an adhesive to glue the paper to panels made of thin birch plywood (or else a prefab "cradle.")

Given that alt prints can use even heavier watercolor paper, would it be possible to mount, say, a Pt/Pd print to a wooden panel in the same way? I'm imagining that mottling from the adhesive bleeding through to the paper's surface might be a problem, but am curious if anyone's tried it.

Any thoughts appreciated...:)

[Robert Bowring]

I am not an expert about this but it seems to me that "gluing" any art work to anything would not be a good idea.

[bob carnie]

There is special methods with archival materials to do the back mounting, not using traditional glues.

[martiansea]

If I'm understanding correctly what you mean to do, you can attach the print to a backing with archival hinge tape. Have a couple tape hinges at the top and the print hangs loosely from the backing. I would recommend archival foam board for the backing, not wood, but I suppose maybe it depends on the wood? I still wouldn't trust it not to affect the paper. Then you would use spacers to keep the front glass away from touching the print surface. Really want to keep the glass from touching the print if possible. I can tell you from personal experience, it's not a good idea to have the print touching the glass unless you have it professionally face mounted with their special adhesive made just for that done by someone who knows what they're doing. I stupidly put an inkjet print in a float frame with it pressed directly against the glass, and the ink has totally glued itself to the glass. The print can never be removed now without being ruined, and you can see obvious flaws in the image where the ink became stuck. I know alt prints are different, but it's still asking for trouble letting it touch the glass.

[maltfalc]

use a large enough sheet of paper that you can wrap it around the edges of the panel and tape or staple it to the back, and add a layer of chemically neutral plastic or something between the paper and plywood.

[CreationBear]

Excellent, thanks for the input guys--Dave Fearn on a recent thread was kind enough to share a video showing how to pass hinge tape through slits in backing material for an "archival" option. Otherwise, martiansea's advice about print/glass issues is well-taken--although I will admit that even if I end up with a traditional frame, I probably won't use glass and let all those expensive noble elements shift for themselves.:)

At any rate, I find the whole "archival imperative" issue very interesting as it relates to my approach to photography--and I definitely could see it changing over time, or even as I shift mediums. (For some reason, I think I would be much less laissez-faire about a silver gelatin print than an alt-print at this point in the proceedings, but of course that might change as well.:))

[CreationBear]

use a large enough sheet of paper that you can wrap it around the edges of the panel and tape or staple it to the back, and add a layer of chemically neutral plastic or something between the paper and plywood.

Excellent, that's a great idea--especially since I don't anticipate ever having more than an 8x10 image area.

[Willie]

Excellent, thanks for the input guys--Dave Fearn on a recent thread was kind enough to share a video showing how to pass hinge tape through slits in backing material for an "archival" option. Otherwise, martiansea's advice about print/glass issues is well-taken--although I will admit that even if I end up with a traditional frame, I probably won't use glass and let all those expensive noble elements shift for themselves.:)

At any rate, I find the whole "archival imperative" issue very interesting as it relates to my approach to photography--and I definitely could see it changing over time, or even as I shift mediums. (For some reason, I think I would be much less laissez-faire about a silver gelatin print than an alt-print at this point in the proceedings, but of course that might change as well.:))

Check out some good framing shops that specialize in Conservation Framing. From materials to presentation they should be able to help with what you are looking for.

[CreationBear]

Thanks, we've got quite a few frame shops in town here in Knoxville--one or two ought to be able to steer me in the right direction.

[Drew Wiley]

In principle, one never has paper in direct contact with wood, or even with conventionally sealed wood. One needs to know what they are doing. Several good hints have already been provided in foregoing posts.

[CreationBear]

In principle


Ha, 'round here that's almost guaranteed to provoke a "here, hold my beer"...much obliged, though.:) FWIW, UT's printmaking program consistently ranks in the top two in the country, so I might take a stroll across the quad to see what kind of handholding's available before going too far down this path.

[Leszek Vogt]

Ahemmm, do let us know what actually works (today). My ideas are close to 35yrs of age and based on state-of-the-art materials and utilized by a pro-eccentric framer....pretty much reflecting what others said.

[Drew Wiley]

Creation Bear - Not hot enough here this time of year for beer; but I have my own compete framing facility, and have equipped and advised museum shops handling some of the best photo collections in the country, even been offered to join one of them, so ... "in principle", you can hold your own beer, thank you.

But yes, a stroll to a competent shop would be well worth your time. Understanding current sealant options is somewhat trickier because so much has changed in just the past few years as certain ingredients have gotten harder to get. True alcohol-based shellac was the traditional choice (not to be confused with lacquer or varnish or polyurethane etc). So once again, "in principle" avoid anything needing a significant outgassing time; and in terms of a "plastic" barrier, that should be inert too - polyester or mylar or polyethylene (never vinyl or PVC). .... Best, use inert backings themselves instead of any kind of plywood or masonite etc.

And yes, I realize that the mention of alcohol in shellac might tempt one to think it is similar to hooch; but it isn't. Ironically, more shellac goes into those chewy centers of See's Candy than anything else. Yep - we've all eaten bug skins; so maybe that will give you cause to drown your sorrows in a Hamm's or Coors or alas, Keystone or some other abominable Frat student beer.

[CreationBear]

Ha, Drew, no worries--in the words of a famous Arkansan turned Californian, it ain't braggin' if you can do it, and I've no doubt you've got the proverbial T-shirt.:) At any rate, I'm having Kevin Leahy down there in Felton make my next pair of boots--I'll let you know how that goes if you're like me and need to squeeze out a few last miles before you fetch up on the porch.

[Drew Wiley]

Felton? Been a long time since I lived in that area - over 50 yrs ago. Didn't know there were any bootmakers there - are you sure it ain't a bootlegger? My last pair of boots was made by Esatto in Vancouver WA, and I hope they'll last the rest of my life, hiking-wise. My previous pair of custom boots lasted 8 re-soleings and nearly 30 yrs; gosh knows how many thousands of miles of backpacking. Moving too old and slow now to wrack up those kind of distances; but as long as I can put one foot in front of the other, and still keep a step or two ahead of the mountain mosquitoes, guess I'm still in business.

[CreationBear]

My last pair of boots was made by Esatto.

Ah, I'm afraid Esatto went the way of the "Tennessee Deardorf" enterprise--I'm actually having to ice my ankles after the heel counters of my second pair broke down after just a couple of years. Hopefully the Leahy's will see me through to the Happy Hunting Grounds.:)

[Drew Wiley]

Hmm ... Sad to hear that. Once the enterprise shifted from the original bootmaker to the next generation, there were allegedly some issues. My pair has been wonderful, and still holding up great after 20 yrs. But back then, they were made in Portland.

[esearing]

I recently had an image framed in a float style frame with glass. The image itself was permanently dry mounted to foamcore/gatorboard, which was then mounted onto the backer matte board (removable) but could have used anything including wood. In the frame the glass was separated from the image/backerboard by use of clear spacers along the edge. This look gives a drop shadow on the image and frame with no matte board in front of the image. The spacing between image frame is about 2 inches all the way around the print.

This style also solves an issue with putting 8x10 horizontally in 11x14 frames having different border widths top vs sides which bothers me as a web designer. - uses 10x12 or 11x13 custom frame instead so the borders are nice and even all the way around.

[CreationBear]

The image itself was permanently dry mounted to foamcore/gatorboard, which was then mounted onto the backer matte board (removable) but could have used anything including wood.

Excellent, very useful, Eric.:) I was thinking about dry mounting all of my prints as a matter of course, so I was wondering how that might integrate with the wood cradle board concept. I'd definitely like to see an iPhone snap of that at some point, just to get a feel for the relationships between frame/mat/image area--I'm especially interested in how much "paper" people are leaving exposed around the image area. (FWIW, I think my beau ideal of a framed print would be an 8x20 sans mat/glass in basically a wainscoting panel of 18th C English walnut...don't think that's happening soon, though.;))

[Corran]

I haven't seen it yet, but a gallery I am working with was going to float mount an 8x20 contact print (exactly 8x20 paper) similar to that style. I've been wanting to do that, and I have done some 5x7 contact prints that way, by archivally taping them to mat board and floating that inside an 8-ply mat (so there is an air gap between print and glass). I like the look but I doubt it's truly 'conservation' quality. On the other hand I think nothing is perfect, only levels of mitigation.

[CreationBear]

only levels of mitigation.

Good to see the Georgia Mafia out today...:) Thanks for the input--as with Eric, I'd like to see some pictures of that project at some point. Otherwise, I definitely see the "archival" issue as a continuum--those of y'all who are making cash money (or else or sitting on your version of Moonrise, Hernandez) have at the very least market forces to consider in a way I do not. (No, no...it's true.:p) I'll take reasonably priced and marginally tasteful any day of the week in this age of diminished expectations.;)

[esearing]

Here ya go ...

Print is trimmed to 11.5x15.5 - foam core is 1/8 inch less all the way around, frame is 16x20 so a little over 2 inches all the way around. the depth from glass to print is about 1/4 inch from what I can tell. Note this iphone shot is out of focus the print is much sharper.
https://i0.wp.com/www.searing.photography/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/dickscreekframed.jpg

funny story - I was admiring a shot by another photographer in North GA and noticed his image was similar but something was different. I read his caption and realized it was the same place. I pulled up my iphone shot and it nearly matched his shot but knew the one at home was still different. I got home and compared the two shots and realized I printed it backwards. I actually like the way the image reads better in this print.

Here is a link to his shot. https://www.landscapesbyjack.com/Photography/Waterfalls-in-Black-and-White/i-W7Bs4WS/A

[Corran]

Eric, I was up in Blue Ridge recently and I saw a print in a gallery of Helton Creek falls. Iconic, of course, but it was mirrored left-right! Very jarring, as I know that waterfall well.

[CreationBear]

I actually like the way the image reads better in this print.


Ha, great story--I'm not sure if I'm sensitive to the rotated scene, but I do think the illuminated tree trunks at the top of the frame takes yours out of the realm of the ordinary.

Otherwise, thanks so much for the pic--certainly a classy way to present a silver print...the architectural symmetry really adds a (literally:)) different dimension to the emotional valence of the image itself.

[esearing]

I also see all the "spirits" in this image. Left side Asian man in traditional robes with fu-manchu , Left middle grey Shark coming out of white water, Middle right - black bird sticking its face out of the falls. There are other tones that have faces and a pair of eyes look at you from within the water. Or my eyesight is getting worse and my brain just makes this stuff up.