US Manufactering of a Precision View Camera

[Frank Petronio]

With all the engineers and craftspeople on this forum, I wonder what you think:

Starting with a precision camera system -- based on a Sinar or Arca-Swiss level of design and quality as a benchmark -- and building a small run of 1000 4x5 bodies, how would the current small-job shops in the USA do? Would they be capable of building a camera of as high quality and performance?

And would the cost be more/less/equal to European manufacturing?

And how would Chinese and Japanese manufacturing compare?

Would it be conceivable to design and spec a camera using Industrial Design software and subcontract the run to various specialty small shops? Doing it all CAD/CAM and prototyping at the beginning of production, following through and fitting each part at every step of the process?

Isn't this in essence what a guy like Keith Canham does? I wonder at what quantities he gets parts?

[Mark Sampson]

Well, nobody did that when there was a potential professional (studio) market for such a thing. In the USA, we made the Kodak/Calumet and the Graphic View when there was a market for monorail cameras. But think about it... first you'd have to have a different/better design for the camera than Arca, Sinar, Linhof, etc. Not easy! I'd guess that it would be possible to design the camera- but the cost of designing and producing the system to go with it, all those accessories, would drive the costs past Rolls-Royce to aircraft levels. Canham, Wisner, Phillips et al. have survived by making high-quality, relatively simple (if original and ingenious) designs.

[steve simmons]

Is there a question here. If you do not have manufacturing expereince you can't possibly understand how difficult and expensive it is to create, design and bring a new product to market. Yes, Keith does a great job but he has been in busienss for years. Others have tried more recently and have not been successful. Who is the guy on APUG who has been promising cameras for almost 2 years and even took money for them which he has had to refund. John Layton has had a camera 'in production' for at least two years and is still trying to get them to market.

One of the problems for mfg/sellers of new cameras is the atitude that one can just go to EBAY and get it cheaper. People will walk into a camera store and take up the employee's time getting a lot of help and then walk out and mail order the product or go to EBAY using the free knowledge that got from a sales person.

At this point in time I would not want to run a retail store or try and bring a new camera to market.

steve simmons

[CXC]

I think Peter Gowland managed to do that. Twice, actually, if you consider the TLR along with the monorail. Though it was quite a while ago, he has continued to tweak his designs over the decades. And his prices are quite reasonable.

Note that both designs are extremely specialist, you could say they aim to be the fastest (TLR) and the lightest (monorail) of LF cameras. You'd likewise need to find a niche you could dominate, to compete with the flood of used equipment that is only going to increase.

[Bruce Wehman]

Using Aerospace as a reference, the level of precision in a large format camera is what we call in the trade, “slop.” Which is to say, yes, as far as execution goes, it would be easy for anyone with a CAD and CNC background to do it. And considering that LF cameras are such a mature technology, with an abundance of prior art, the design wouldn’t be much of a challenge either.

The issue is profitability.

1000 cameras wouldn’t go far in covering the cost of tooling and setup, which would be the biggest up-front expense. You would have to somehow attract venture capital to a market that is already saturated

[FpJohn]

Hello:

The capacity is there if you look at firms such as RRS. If they made bellows frames and carriages they would be there as the other components are directed at at a larger market. ARCA Swiss started out, I understand, as a firm that made an optical bench.

yours
Frank Johnston

[Bruce Watson]

I was a mechanical engineer for 25 years in the USA. To answer your questions:

building a small run of 1000 4x5 bodies, how would the current small-job shops in the USA do? They would do fine, and produce excellent quality. This day and age, 1000 parts is a large order. With current computer controlled milling machines and lathes, the big manufacturing cost is the tooling (if any beyond the standard clamps and stops), then getting the tooling on the machine and registering it into position. After that, it's putting a blank in place and turning the machine tool loose to do its thing. I'm thinking that a more reasonable lot size is probably 10. Exact quantities would of course be negotiated with the particular machine shops in question.

Would they be capable of building a camera of as high quality and performance? Yes, of course. If they have computer controlled machine tools, well maintained. "Hand craftsmanship" is something to be avoided in a venture like this. American manufacturing is still right up there with the best in the world. It's not the cheapest. But you are going to have to make some decisions in balancing quality and price...

And would the cost be more/less/equal to European manufacturing? About the same, maybe somewhat less that Europe. Don't forget shipping costs and customs, which would raise your costs somewhat.

And how would Chinese and Japanese manufacturing compare? Japanese about the same in cost, perhaps a bit more, but the highest quality. They make some amazing machine tools, the Japanese. Still the best QA in the world from what I can tell.

Chinese will have lower cost and perhaps lower quality. A lot depends on who is doing the work and the machines they are using and the maintenance state of the machines. What labor there is, would be less in China. The machine tools are the question, and the care and attention to detail. That is, QA.

Would it be conceivable to design and spec a camera using Industrial Design software and subcontract the run to various specialty small shops? That's standard operating procedure. Done all the time. But the shops don't have to be very small - you need shops big enough to have decently high precision machine tools and a maintenance staff to keep them well maintained and capable of the high precision they are designed to deliver.

Doing it all CAD/CAM and prototyping at the beginning of production, following through and fitting each part at every step of the process? Doing it all in CAD/CAM is, um, old school. Doing it all with a 3D modeling package like Alibre Design (http://www.alibre.com/) is more likely. Then, you do your prototyping in software - the entire thing - clearances, fits, all of it. If it's a folder you see how well it folds in software and make adjustments as needed, long before you build the first unit. You can still build a prototype if you want, but it's much less important than it used to be. Depends on the experience and motivation of your engineers of course. But a properly engineered assembly doesn't need "fitting each part at every step of the process." That would just be a waste of your time.

Isn't this in essence what a guy like Keith Canham does? Yep.

I wonder at what quantities he gets parts? You could call and ask. He might tell you.

Basically, what you are describing is Canham and in particular Toho. I am sure that this is what Canham is doing with his new 20x24, and he's not making 1000 at a time, I assure you.

Now the question back for you - why would you want to do this? What's missing from the current crop of cameras that you need or want?

[Steve Hamley]

Mark and Steve's very valid comments notwithstanding, you'd be competing against the $1,000 used Sinar P which has a proven track record of excellence and tons of used parts. Because studios are going digital is why a Sinar P is selling for about 1/10th the purchase price. So that pretty much lets out selling a new studio rail for much more than $1,500.

Monorails (I assume this is what you mean when you say "precision") have never been very popular as field cameras with the possible exception of the Arca field monorails, so if you're building a field camera, you'd be competing against the $500 Sinar F-series and the Arcas.

The other option would be a precision press/technical camera like the Linhof Technika.

So yes, I think it could be done, but why? You could never compete with the number of high quality used name brand cameras flooding the market.

Now, if you're talking a precision wooden field camera (sort of an oxymoron), I think there is still a limited market for them that could be viable, difficulties as noted by Mark and Steve.

And just a side note, amateurs buy a lot of cameras and like to use what their favorite pros or fine art photographers use. Professionals like to use what they can get fixed in a day or two if something breaks. Under the small scale scenario above, can you FedEx a bellows or other part overnight or 2-day if needed? Keep in mind that lack of support is what caused a lot of Wisner's problems even at the non-pro level.

Steve

[paulr]

"first you'd have to have a different/better design for the camera than Arca, Sinar, Linhof, etc. Not easy! "

you might have an easy time coming up with a better design ... for you! but surprisingly few other people would find it better. we're such creatures of habit and opinion and idiosyncracy. what the succesful companies have done is come up with a design that's different enough and that appeals to enough people to be profitable. my dream camera, if someone isn't already making it, might have a market of one. two or three if i can find some other like-minded weirdos on the internet.

"Chinese will have lower cost and perhaps lower quality."

this might be changing ... if it hasn't changed already. many of their industrial complexes now have an unmatched combination of state-of-the-art european and japanese technology, and borderline third-world wages. leaving aside the ethical questions of supporting such an economy, it might be the place to go for price/performance.

[Joseph O'Neil]

You did not differentiate between monorails and field cameras. IMO, the bigger demand is for a field camera in today's market. If you use Ebay as a rough indicator of current market trends, you'll notice more monorails than field cameras are for sale. Or look at the used market amoung camera dealers - agian, good field cameras seem to get snapped up quicker.

I think monorails are eaiser to design and build than afield camera that has a wide range of movements. Doing so just in Autocad (or similar) will likely not cut it - you'll have to actually build one, and then test it out, see how it works in "real life". It's the silly little details such as knobs that are too small, or difficult to reach, rotating backs that are hard to change, and so forth, is what makes or breaks a camera. Or any consumer item for that matter.

After all that hands on R&D, you'll have to ask yourself, just what is your time worth?

good luck
joe

[tim atherton]

plus - the europeans a generally far better at designing this stuff so it looks and handles nicely - vs functional but clunky... ;-)

[Bruce Watson]

"Chinese will have lower cost and perhaps lower quality."

this might be changing ... if it hasn't changed already. many of their industrial complexes now have an unmatched combination of state-of-the-art european and japanese technology, and borderline third-world wages. leaving aside the ethical questions of supporting such an economy, it might be the place to go for price/performance.

Paulr, this is true. The problem is, you have to find the "good" companies. Not as easy as it sounds.

And since you bring it up, there is the small matter of the Chinese lack of anything like OSHA to protect the workers, and the lack of anything like the EPA to protect the populace. Among other problems. You do have to figure out how to live with yourself in the end.

[evan clarke]

Martin Vogt, whose family make Arca Swiss cameras told me that they do not sell or offer a camera or part without first having a patent on it and they have many patents. I would think the same thig is true at Sinar..Evan Clarke

[Frank Petronio]

I am not considering it, only as an interesting question. What I am really wondering is how a guy like Canham does it, considering his dovetails and parts are as complex as anything else out there. A Toho or Gowland looks almost easy...

And I read about all this one-off custom manufacturing, and am wondering outloud if you could design anything you want and just have the machine grind it out -- plop!

I agree, when you can get a used Sinar P or Arca F for under $1000 it is impractical to do a new design that is significantly worthwhile. Except Toho did...

[Rob_6274]

I agree with Steve. EBAY is killing or killed new camera mfgs/sellers. It's not just LF, but also mamiya, nikon etc. That's why mfgs prefer to sell digital because of the built-in obsolescence. One example, I recently won a nice Horseman LX-C 8x10 for $715. You can't manufacture this for less than $1000.

[darter]

Jim Layton is building his alloy view camera out of New Hampshire. I only saw a prototype, but it seemed to be a precision built camera, and an elegant design to boot. His site says there has been a delay getting the camera to market, but my guess is he eventually will. The guy certainly has put a lot of thoughtful design into the thing, he's no diletante. It has a high price point, but I think his intended competition is Linhof, so it is on par with that. Despite the relative cheapness of used 4x5's it seems to me there is a real, if more limited, market for expensive high end cameras like the Ebony, Linhof and Gandolfi. I just saw a new Bentley roadster in traffic yesterday. It measured up very well against the other cars, and the driver seemed pleased as a dog in a meat truck.

[Scott Rosenberg]

this whole thread really begs the question why? design and material selection is always going to be a balancing act between weight/price and performance. you're going to have to make compromises... aren't there enough options out there to cover everyone's desires already? if you want something small and bombproof, there's the Wista SP or Technika. if you want something lighter but are willing to sacrifice some rigidity, there's the DLC. if you are willing to sacrifice a little setup time, weight, and bulk, there's the TK45S or the Arca F-Lines. if you want to save a bit on weight, at the expense of rigidity, there's ebony wooden cameras. it would seem to me that within the limits of their respective designs, we have all the excellent cameras on the market presently that we need. it's on the photographer to decide what's important to them and find the camera that best meets their needs. frank, are you just curious about how american craftsman compare to those in other parts of the world, or is there something you find lacking in the current crop of cameras?

[David A. Goldfarb]

I agree that the biggest obstacle would be the $1000 Sinar P (my 8x10" P was actually $850). Any features that could be added to such a camera (like maybe Linhof-style variable asymmetric tilts and swings) would be tradeoffs with the easy availability of parts and accessories for the Sinar system.

[Paul Metcalf]

So how's Jack Deardorff going to make new Deardorff's to compete with the fully functional used $1000-$1500 Deardorffs all over ebay?

[Ralph Barker]

Jack's will say "New" instead of "Near Mint - only needs new bellows and some re-gluing". ;-)

[Frank Petronio]

I'm happy with my Arca/Graflex pile of parts, I have no ambition to make cameras. Just curious.

What I would like to see are some new camera designs for digital, they seem to have stagnanted for a moment. But no, I don't want to tackle that either!

[Jonathan Brewer]

"And I read about all this one-off custom manufacturing, and am wondering outloud if you could design anything you want and just have the machine grind it out -- plop!".......................I just got through doing that Frank...........go 2 the S.K. Grimes to get a load of the 'Silhouette 612', it's shown on the front page, I had an idea, sketches, and got together w/Adam, who turned the rough sketch into a refined camera.

In researching panorama cameras, only the Alpa supplied the Schneider Apo Tele-Xenar, I wasn't about to pay for an Alpa w/a xxxxx pricetag, and I wanted a panorama camera where I didn't have to turn the camera on it's side, so I wanted a rotating back.

I got stopped and questioned in the Port of LA while I was shooting trains, I'd actually finished shooting, and was dis-assembling my Toyo AII when I was approached, I'd made up my mind then that I wanted a 4x5 which I didn't have to fold/unfold, where I could just pull it out and put on my tripod, shoot, take off, and put it away. Also a 4x5 I could handhold as a last resort.

I was not carrying another 4x5 around, and a panorama camera, so why not design a camera that does both, so I asked Adam to tackle it, and he accomplished that for WAY LESS than what ALPA wants for a Schneider Apo Tele-Xenar and the lens cone, the camera is smooth not rough, there are no major problems, and I love using it, it's light than it looks, I think Adam mentioned he used most T-61 in its construction, I haven't weighed it, but it feels much less than my RB Pro-SD w/a 180mm lens, and is effortless to handhold w/its 'lip'/base in the palm of your 'off-hand', I've been held back on the handholding aspect as I search for the right viewfinder.

I'm glad I did this project because I got exactly what I wanted, it's got a Toyo rotating back, so I can use my reflex finder, Toyo film backs, and Horseman 612 mags, and both the Sihouette and Toyo AII can share these, all for nowhere near what they're asking for other systems in just one format.

I don't see why several shooters who like the idea of a certain design can't get together to have run of that design, I saw several panorama cameras on sale on e-bay from the chinese, but I could never get a straight answer as to the materials and build quality of these systems, so I turned to Adam, I already had the Horseman backs for my Toyo AII, the Linhof grip, I got the lens I wanted, getting the Schneider 250mm Apo Tele-Xenar from Badger, so Adam fabricated everything else, but using existing stuff where possible kept the price down.

I was in Long Beach shooting w/this camera, and a guy who used 2 use 4x5, came up, looked at this camera and his eyes glazed over, he looked like he just had to know what the camera was, and after racking his brain mercilessly, I told him it was a one ff, and I find myself taking this thing out a lot, and I have a neverending satifisfaction that it is my personal camera, I suggest that this is possible for a reasonable amount of money as long as folks like Adam are around and are still willing to do it.

[paulr]

"If you have an autocad with CNC background (preferably a small shop), building a straight forward field camera would be easy I feel. "

that was the feeling of a friend/teacher of mine. he collaborated with the machinist at my college to make his dream 5x7. about a year into the project his feelings started to change!

no experience doing this kind of thing myself. but i understand it. some people just like to design and build stuff. and in some cases it comes from a vague dissatisfaction with the things that are available ... call it pickiness.

most of the manufacturers of outdoor clothing and climbing gear came out of the same kind of dissatisfaction. they started in the garages of enthusiasts who just felt they could do better than what was being offered elsewhere.

[tim atherton]

Hey Jonathan - I like the improved Technikardan as well

http://www.skgrimes.com/thisweek/1-13-06/index.htm

[Aaron van de Sande]

A friend of mine runs a small machine shop that sells performance parts for cars and for aircraft. He has the castings done in China and does the final machining in house.

[Kirk Gittings]

"I agree with Steve. EBAY is killing or killed new camera mfgs/sellers."

My main competition for my own book sales are the used books of mine for sale through Amazon. On the other hand I don't hesitate to buy used book that I need when I get the chance. You can't have it both ways. Ebay and Amazon are here to stay.

[Jonathan Brewer]

'Hey Jonathan - I like the improved Technikardan as well'...........................Yes Tim, I saw that, and it's awesome, having gone through this process of collarboration on this camera, I'd do it again, it was extreme fun, and the most satifaction came from finding a way to make it a LOT cheaper than an Alpa, you can do this for about the same money as you're going to pay for a panoramic camera that has stuff on it you don't want.

[Frank Petronio]

We were discussing that over on Galbraith before his meltdown. The architectural guys were lusting over the Alpa XY body, which is something like $6,000 for a flat plate with two screw drives. Nice for wide digital lenses and the 39 mb Leaf and Phase One backs.

I suggested that a local machine shop could probably build a custom one for half that.

Jonathan - why such a long lens on a hand camera? Can they also build you a nice Brewer-Wide to compliment it?

[Jonathan Brewer]

'Jonathan - why such a long lens on a hand camera? Can they also build you a nice Brewer-Wide to compliment it?'........................I could lie to you and give you a lot of rationalizing, but I won't, getting what I was getting from about the same focal length on the Toyo, I just felt confident I could handhold this rig in a pinch, it'll do most of it's work on the tripod, shooting 4x5, with the 612 back on it, I grab the Linhof grip w/my left hand, the base fits in the palm of my right hand, and the fingers come naturally to rest on the barrel, I rest my right elbow against my stomach,...............I've got some pretty sharp test shots back doing this. The viewfinder isn't accurate, I'm deciding how I'm going to upgrade.

I'm really happy w/the camera, Adam made modifications/changes along the way w/out me telling him, I kept mentioning to him 'simpler' and 'smaller', and I found I could depend on his professional pride/'wanting it right' attitude to smooth over 'teething problems' w/a 'one off', I didn't know if I'd get that from the Chinese cameras I saw on e-bay.

Doing this, setting this up to include the ability to switch wide angle w/a shorter cone wouldn't be a problem.

[Frank Petronio]

It certainly is much more attractive as a camera than those ugly Graflex XL hybrids they made for a awhile (the ProPaq). I'm sure they worked fine and the lenses were first class, but I never cared for the plastic Graflex XL system - what were they smoking in Rochester in the 60s?

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi there,

A better? question: can US small shops redesign and build the Kodak MasterView 8x10 profitably? Newer materials, manufacturing and plating processes, high-tech plastics for gears and bellows, 8x10, 5x7, 4x5, 4x10, digi backs. That would already have a market.

Just a thought.

[Oren Grad]

can US small shops redesign and build the Kodak MasterView 8x10 profitably?

IIRC, Hoffman Camera did just that, and continued to offer variants of the KMV until they went out of business within the last few years.

[Jerry Cunningham]

I am a retired machinist and perhaps I can add a couple of things to the good comments made.
Machine shops are asked every day whether they "can make" X. The answer is yes. There is no lack of skill among American machine shops. Our skilled labor can go head to head with anyone in the world as far as quality. The real problem is always cost. American owners cannot use slave labor like China. On the other hand, if you use an American shop you have someone to talk to if some quality control problem comes up. Calling a shop in China is not so easy. As a rough rule of thumb the product always takes longer to make than all parties think and the costs always drift up. If you want to spend many many hours reinventing the wheel and you REALLY want to do this thing then do it. It will not be cheap and I would be very surprised if it was profitable. Even very good products take the sales of many units before the start-up costs are recovered. One has to honestly ask themselves whether there is a demand for your product. You, of course, will love it, but what about the shopper? View cameras have been made for decades, and I am certain thousands of hours have been pondered on possible improvements. It would be hard to come up with something truly original. In addition, making the product is only part of the cost. The marketing dollars also figure in. All in all, a very tough game.
Jerry

[GPS]

A very realistic comment , Jerry. One can always dream but the reality wakes you up.

[Ralph Barker]

Hugo Zhang sent me this images of camera designs coming out of China, and asked that I post them for him, as they might be of interest in this context. I'll let Hugo add his related commentary.

http://www.rbarkerphoto.com/test/2819_1127907557.jpg

-

http://www.rbarkerphoto.com/test/2819_1127977510.jpg

[Hugo J. Zhang]

LF is getting popular in China. When you check eBay auctions, you notice buyers from China paying top dollars for classic lenses like Dagors. I have found these pictures of their new cameras in production from their LF forum. From 8x10 all the way up to 20x24. The designer is an experienced LF photographer. The name of these cameras is Chamonix, a little Alpine French town he likes. The Chinese is coming!

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've sold a couple of nice LF lenses to Chinese buyers on eBay. It seems like a serious market.

[Bruce Watson]

There is a similar thread (http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26055&page=1&pp=10) on APUG right now. Just thought you might like to see it.

[Jonathan Brewer]

Here's what bugged me about 4x5 and 8x10, the bellows, every time I open/close down, fixing the pleats, the delicacy of the bellows, and it being essentially a 'sail' that's caught up in a breeze, folding and unfolding the camera, and mounting/unmounting the lens, and sometimes the fastening brackets do loosen/come loose. I've had my Toyo AII for years, when I mount my Cooke PS 945 on the front, I can't afford to have it pop off because something comes loose, and so for a while, I shit 'bricks' worrying about it, which is why I tend not to take my Toyo out a lot, except for using the Cooke on something real special.

Screwing the lensmount into the helical just like a filter and it's going nowhere, the weight of the lens is held better. I never use movements, I wonder how many folks really do, so a helicoid and lenscone is smaller, less susceptible to wind, and I can put my fingers around the barrel and hold the thing like a MF and/or 35mm camera.

Regardless of what you think of the Silhouette, I think there are better alternatives than what's been traditionally out there, particularly the 'do everything' aspect of some cameras, I don't need everything on the Toyo AII, so I use it for studio shots, the silhouette is simple, easy, quick to get/put away, and is capable of 2 formats, and most importantly at my age, it worth me spending more money for another camera, to eliminate every hassle I can from when I shoot outside.

I love my 810 and 45 Toyos, but I despise the bellows, also having to be careful around these cameras, not because I'll damage something by bumping into them, but jiggling them enough to throw something out of whack to mess up the picture. If I bump into the Silouette, I don't have to worry about maybe bumping the front standard off vertical because it already has a heaving lens on it, to me LF cameras try to do too much/have too much on them, and the simpler designs are the ones that are becoming more attractive to me.

One thing I like about doing this w/Adam, you can get off the shelf components cheaply, my camera has the Toyo Rotating back, takes the Horseman 612 back, the lenses are already here, a big percentage of what makes up a camera is already here. Before this started, I actually had in my head the idea of having a helicoid/lenscone machined that fastened directly to a lens on one end, and a Horseman 612 back on the other, that's before I realized that I could get too formats out the this camera, then things got more complex, but the original idea is a great idea until somebody tells me different. Machining a helicoid/lenscone that takes a panoramic back, to me that's a camera.

I've already seen this somewhere, light, quick, and simple

[GPS]

Are you talking Fotoman formats? Sure a great idea.

[Jonathan Brewer]

I was close to diving in on Fotoman, but I didn't like the back, I forgot where I saw it, but there's another camera system that's basically a helical/lenscone, the back of the lenscone flares out, and you just fasten the back to the lenscone, it was very simple.

[GPS]

Maybe the new P&S 4x5 Fotoman?

[tim atherton]

frank

maybe you could start with something like this? (View cameras for the homeless?)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Custom-8x10-View-Camera-designed-for-Field-Landscape_W0QQitemZ7603782884QQcategoryZ15248QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://tinyurl.com/h3o6z

[Frank Petronio]

I've decided that Canadian craftspeople are better. Just was looking through my Lee Valley Veratis catalog - they are making some nice stuff - innovative new designs of high quality hand planes that are 1/3 the price of the American Lie-Neilsen copies of 100 year old Stanley designs. And most people would advise you that hand plane was maxed out and unprofitable too.

Bit no, I'm not going to do it. Just dreaming here...

[Ralph Barker]

Tim - the camera for which you provided the link would be a great design if mounted in a modified grocery cart. ;-)