For sale ad quoting from a popular website

[Marko]

If someone puts a for-sale ad or opens an auction on eBay and decide that a popular website describes the item much better then they could, should they ask for permission to quote from it?

Specifically:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Schneider-Super-Symmar-HM-120mm-f5-6-Lens_W0QQitemZ7600353609QQcategoryZ30076QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

While it might be argued that the quote represents only a small part of the entire page, it still doesn't feel right to me. Kerry has obviously assembled the information and put it up on the web as a free service to the LF community, not as a marketing tool for used equipment.

Regards,

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Marko,

This is the second time this seller has listed this lens (his opening bid is still WAY TOO HIGH) using the text he copied directly from my web site. He never asked for, nor was he granted, permission to use my words in his auction listing. I don't mind people placing a link to the applicable pages on my web site, but I don't like it when the "borrow" my words and place them in their ads to sell their products. It makes it sound like I am recommending this specific lens and this specific seller. For the record, I am not. I know absolutely nothing about this particular lens or this seller (other than that his opening bid is WAY TOO HIGH).

This is another example of people assuming that because it's on the 'net, it must be public domain. It is not. The text on my web site is copyrighted - as are the images. To copy and use that text in a commercial manner (you can't get much more commercial than a sales ad), is an infringement of my copyright. It does not fall under the fair use exemption.

I did wade through several levels of eBay help screens to find the right screen for reporting an infringing listing. That was a big waste of time. Even though I explained the violation very clearly in simple English (twice), the customer "support" drone that responded sent me a canned response stating they would contact the person claiming copyright ownership (in this case, me) and if that person could prove ownership they would pull the listing. Of course they never contacted me seeking proof of copyright and by dragging their feet on the whole matter, they insured the auction would close before they'd have to take any action. Their total lack of attention and canned responses gave the impression of a deliberate stall tactic. The whole process was a joke.

And now the seller has re-listed the lens, with a lower (but still TOO HIGH) opening bid. In the grand scheme of things, the auction will probably close again before I can get eBay to do anything about it (that seems to be their goal). I had a similar problem a couple years ago and when I complained, eBay immediately yanked the listing. As they have grown, the levels of bureaucracy have multiplied and the competance of their "support" staff has dwindled. Based on my recent experience, they no longer seem to care about copyright violations in their listings.

Oh, and if anyone is considering bidding on this lens, the opening bid price is WAY TOO HIGH.

Kerry

[Dean Tomasula]

Kerry -

I'd write to eBay and complain to them about the description being lifted verbatim from your web site. They'll probably stop the auction.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Dean,

Thanks for the encouragement. That's exactly what I did - twice (three times if you count the "customer satisfaction" survey they sent me after they "resolved" my complaint). All they did was send me canned responses saying they would look into it and remove the listing if they found it to be infringing. Of course, they never followed up on the intitial canned response. Their new infringement reporting mechanism seems trageted at people selling pirated music, video and software (things likely to get them sued by recording companies, movie studios and SW publishers - people with deep pockets and highly paid attornies). In my case, I was both the reporter and the victim of the infringement. So, I know for a fact they never followed up on their "promise" to contact the infringed party for proof of copyright.

It's just one seller hijacking info I provide free on my web site, but it still ticks me off that they never even bothered to ask permission. Like I said, I don't mind sellers providing links to my web site for people seeking aditional info on the item for sale, but when they make MY words THEIR ad, it rubs me the wrong way and goes way beyond "fair use".

Kerry

[Marko]

That's what I thought. The tactic you describe seems to be a general trend, not just eBay. More and more companies seem to be deliberately employing under-qualified (to put it very charitably) staff at the front line in an attempt to deflect complaints and reduce interaction to an absolute minimum. Paraleling this, there is another trend, currently on the rise - misterious "service fees", unannounced increases, "accounting errors", "service upgrades" (always with increased price and diminished options) pop up on at least one bill/statement a month lately.

And it does not look like an accident either - great many people simply lack the time or even the skills to scrutinize their bills carefully enough to notice these little critters. And again, amounts are usually not quite serious enough to motivate people to wade through the front-line customer service nightmare, so of those who do call, majority will eventually give up. That's where the abysmal first-line service really "shines". And the few of us determined enough to climb up the ladder and angry enough to persist will get lukewarm apology and a refund. We make, what, maybe 10% of the total number of customers swindled this way. The 90% they keep is pure gravy. And that's only the really smart companies. The dumb ones get greedy enough to persist until someone sues them and then they simply settle for pennies on the dollar and still keep the rest.

The only way around this is to "escalate to the next level", to use the customer service industry lingo, as soon as you've been given a run-around. Typically, things get resolved at the third level, although in some cases it's possible to climb higher before getting to talk to a human with a brain.

It's the times we live in, I guess. Fast money and even faster scruples.

[Marko]

I looked again and I notice that they put the entire url to your page there, although they did not link to it.

If I were you, I'd rename my original page and replace it with a new page that takes both eBay and that seller to task for it.

Or maybe even something really funny, depending on your imagination and sense of humour... ;)

Regards,

[Frank Petronio]

Anytime you want to screw up the other guy's auction, just bid $1,000,001. They'll kill the auction for you.

It's fun to do! I've done this to a couple of the scam auctions (stolen pix of a 6x17 Technorama from sellers in China with multiple minus feedback...).

[matthew blais]

Uh...
contact the seller directly?

[Marko]

Why? They knew what they were doing. It's not like the wording fell off a truck or something...

[Joseph O'Neil]

This goes far beyond any kind of fair use. Usually most companies do not mind a direct link to thier web site for an accurate description of what an item is (but not the condition), but this is a deliberate cut and paste of somebody else's work.

Too bad he's hosting the web images from his own site, and not lifting them off Kerry's - otherwise Kerry could sub the images for something else.

Dunno what can be done, other than a posting on Kerry's own web page about Ebay auctions, and warning people off. :(

joe

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Kerry,

" I don't mind people placing a link to the applicable pages on my web site, "

I was just notified by ebay that an auction I bid on was pulled and voided. The reason it was pulled within hours was that it had 'hot-links' in it, you cannot use 'hot-links' outside of ebay or java-script in an ebay auction page. It's not a public website, it's an auction page.

Sorry about all the fuss and bother but I think ebay is now #2 only to Wal-Mart in size so they will do whatever they want to. Just think, it started in someone's garage selling used CDs.

Welcome to the 21st century.

[Graham Patterson]

I have had a few instances of this with my Mamiya TLR pages. It is one of the reasons I include explicit wording about what I consider reasonable, *and* a disclaimer that any commercial transaction citing my web pages where I am neither the seller or purchaser is nothing to do with me. Realistically I cannot police every auction. Neither, I suspect, can Kerry. I have found that a firm but polite 'cease and desist' works with private sellers. But it is effectively after the fact.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

hermit - Depending on how disgruntled you are, contact an attorney of file a complaint against the 'auction site'. ;) They have deep pockets and didn't act. That may be a worse offense than the original. You have the automated emails as evidence.

I'm not disgruntled enough at this point to start throwing money at an attorney. I'm sure eBay with their deep pockets has several talented attorneys under their employ. In fact, I would not be surprised to learn that those canned email responses were scrutinized by their legal staff to insure they do and say the absolute minimum required to avoid getting sued.

Frank - Anytime you want to screw up the other guy's auction, just bid $1,000,001. They'll kill the auction for you.

A correction - it's a fixed price listing with "Buy It Now!" and "Pay Immediately" enabled. Sorry, no fun allowed.

Matthew - Uh... contact the seller directly?

I've actually done that a couple times in the past, and most individual sellers change their listing when requested. This time, I thought I'd go the official route as the seller seemed like a dealer (eBay Power Seller complete with eBay Seller's Store). Obviously, that tack failed. So, maybe I should try contacting the seller directly using "ask the seller a question".

Paul - I was just notified by ebay that an auction I bid on was pulled and voided. The reason it was pulled within hours was that it had 'hot-links' in it, you cannot use 'hot-links' outside of ebay or java-script in an ebay auction page. It's not a public website, it's an auction page.

The seller got around this eBay rule by posting the complete URL to my web page, and not an actual hot link. Otherwise, I could have their listing pulled, not for violating my copyright, but by violating eBay's policy against sending viewer's to sites that don't make money for eBay.

Graham - Realistically I cannot police every auction. Neither, I suspect, can Kerry. I have found that a firm but polite 'cease and desist' works with private sellers. But it is effectively after the fact.

It's worth a try. But given eBay's inaction on this matter, I don't really expect the seller to comply with my request. Who knows, maybe they really don't know what they are doing is illegal.

Thanks to all who have responded. After eBay's lack of action on this issue, I had pretty much written it off. Getting them to actually do anything before the auction ends seems unlikely. The wheels of bureaucracy move slowly and eBay has become a HUGE bureaucracy.

Kerry

[QT Luong]

In general, I have found that demanding payment is the best way to get someone to stop using your copyrighted materials. One or two years ago, someone informed me that a person was using repeatedly some of my images to sell real estate on ebay. I just sent them by surface mail a bill for the price I would normally charge for that use, accompanied by threatening language (each of my 13,000 online images is registered). They promptly paid. In a second similar case, the offender apologized profusely and withdrew immediatly the image. Since this was a first offense, I didn't try to recover from him. Since you have a record of being paid by the word for your writting, maybe you can just bill him at relevant rates.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

OK, I did some more poking around on the eBay web site. Evidently, their inaction on this matter was due to the fact that I didn't use the proper copyright infringement reporting mechanism. Rather than just send in a compaint through their online "help" screens, you have to fill out the proper form, sign it (UNDER PENATLY OF PERJURY - emphasis their's) and fax it to them. This falls under their VeRO (Verified Rights Owner) program and the form can be found here (http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/NOCI1.pdf).

I filled out the form and faxed it to them about 15 minutes ago. The offending listing ends in 3 days 7+ hours. Let's see if they act on the faxed complaint any faster than they did my previous electronically submitted complaint.

I want to thank Marko for starting this discussion and all who responded. After the previous run around, I had given up on getting the infringing listing removed. Thanks to everyone's help and encouragement, I decided to give it one more try. If not for this discussion, I would not have found eBay's VeRO "Notice of Claimed Infringement" form. Their site has become so cumbersome to navigate. Once you find what you need, it all seems simple. The problem is finding what you are actually looking for on their web site. I had originally followed the links for reporting"Item Description and Picture Theft", unaware of what VeRO meant and the proper steps for reporting the infringing listing. Now it all seems obvious. Hopefully, this discussion will benefit others in the future.

As soon as I hear back from them, I'll let everyone know how eBay reponds now that I have reported the infringement through proper channels.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Tuan - Since you have a record of being paid by the word for your writting, maybe you can just bill him at relevant rates.

If I'm going to make this worth my while, I need to either up my word rate, or beef up the descriptions on my web site.

Now, if someone would include my entire Toho review in their auction listing (10,331 words and 30 photos) we'd be talking some serious cash.

Seriously, the articles on my web site were placed there to help others, not make money. What I don't like is when other's try to use the content of my web site to turn a profit. That was not my intent, and attempting to do so offends me and violates my intended purpose. I do get paid for articles I have published in magazines, but I also believe and giving back a little to the community. That's why I have always supported Tuan and those who run this community. They have given a lot more than I have. The info on my web site (sorely in need of an update, but I never seem to find the time) and any info I share though this forum are my little way of saying "thanks".

Kerry

[Hiro]

I was both the reporter and the victim of the infringement.

Kerry--I just asked the seller about the illegal use of a copyrighted material. Also, I think it's a good idea to let the seller know it from yourself (for the record) as well as the fact that you've filed a formal complaint with eBay. If the efforts fail, there are hundreds of participants in this forum according to the roll call...

[Graeme Hird]

I like Hiro's solution. Kerry, do we have permission (or more correctly, an endorsement) from you to bombard him with questions?

Cheers,
Graeme

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Grame - like Hiro's solution. Kerry, do we have permission (or more correctly, an endorsement) from you to bombard him with questions?

While I appreciate the offers of assistance, now that I've figured out the proper way to file an infringement complaint with eBay, I'd prefer to give them a chance to rectify the situation.

And, while it's a blatant infringement of my copyright, as I have not contacted the seller directly, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt (for now).

So, before anyone does anything malicious (no matter how well intentioned), let's give this a chance to sort itself out through "official channels".

Kerry

[Frank Petronio]

Just purchase it and stiff them. Don't be so afraid of maintaining 100% positive feedback - the feedback section allows you to be quite accurate (so long as you are concise.)

Most crooks won't leave you negative feedback anyway, even if you lambast them.

eBay's feedback was meant to rat out the baddies but everyone is so chicken to call a spade a spade... give me the URL in a usable form and I'll do it. I doubt having 99.7% verus 99.6% positive feedback really makes one lick of difference to a customer.

Sometimes a chainsaw works better than a lawyer.

[Scott Knowles]

Kerry, knowing Ebay's policy, you're right. The information on your (very helpful) Web site isn't copyrighted, and as such, isn't a violation any law, and likely Ebay won't do anything except note the complaints against that sellor. Quite a few auctions plagiarzie other Web sites, including photos of items. It's interesting the starting bid and buy it now price is $250 more than I won mine on Ebay not long ago. Obviously he's not in a hurry to sell the lens.

[Juergen Sattler]

When you look at the other items he has for sale it is obvious that he ALWAYS is asking too much for his items - you gotta wonder who buys this stuff, but he does have over 1700 sales under his belt - so someone is taking the bait. His feedback is also pretty impressive - only 2 negatives in the past 12 months, which is not bad given his volume of sale. Good Luck Kerry - hopefully the listing will be pulled today and it will serve as a lesson to him and others.

[Hiro]

Just to clarify, I asked the seller a civil question expressing a concern and wasn't suggesting (necessarily) "malicious" actions. The seller or eBay wouldn't care about one complaint but would notice combined voices (only because they'd want to judge if it's bad for their trade).

I hope the official channel will produce some result. Please, Kerry, let us know how it goes.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Scott - The information on your (very helpful) Web site isn't copyrighted, and as such, isn't a violation any law

It most certainly is copyrighted. I am the creator and legal copyright holder of all the content on my web site. There is also a copyright notice at the bottom of every page, including the one at the bottom of the page in question.

This notice also appears on the top page of the large format portion of my web site:

"This site Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 Kerry L. Thalmann, all rights reserved.
All photographs and text appearing at this site are the exclusive
property of Kerry L. Thalmann and are protected under United States
and international copyright laws.
The photographs and text may not be reproduced, copied, stored, or manipulated
without the written permission of Kerry L. Thalmann. Use of any image
as the basis for another photographic concept or illustration is a
violation of copyright.
Any unauthorized use of text or images will be prosecuted to the full
extent of federal copyright laws."

Kerry

[jon fritsch]

>Just purchase it and stiff them. Don't be so afraid of maintaining 100% positive feedback - the feedback section allows you to >be quite accurate (so long as you are concise.)

Yes, but he shouldn't abuse or violate eBay policies any more than the person running the auction. Likewise, why should he mar his feedback rating as a solution to the problem.

>Most crooks won't leave you negative feedback anyway, even if you lambast them.
>eBay's feedback was meant to rat out the baddies but everyone is so chicken to call a spade a spade... give me the URL in a >usable form and I'll do it. I doubt having 99.7% verus 99.6% positive feedback really makes one lick of difference to a >customer.

Because of this exact problem, many trading forums will no longer take ebay feedback as references for buyers and sellers. I regularly trade through the 2cpu forum (computer) and in order to list an item on their classified pages you have to have some other outside references, like heatware or beerology, in order to post. They no longer accept ebay references as valid. I wish that there was a similar heatware-like service for people who trade camera gear. Maybe there is. Anybody know of any? The ebay feedback thing not only leaves little room for describing problems, but is susceptible to tit-for-tat feedback (which doesn't always reflect what actually happened during the transaction).

[neil poulsen]

I'll tell you something else that EBay doesn't care one iota about, and that's trademark infringement, using someone else's name in their handle. They don't even have a guideline on that one, though they provide some minimal information.

They will enforce following through on a purchase, even though the buyer was hoodwinked into thinking they were purchasing from someone else. That places EBay in the position of enforcing an illegal act.

But, do you think EBay cares? Not a whit.

[David Richhart]

Perhaps you could ask this gentleman for advice...



http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/500658.html

[Jack Flesher]

Kerry: I don't mind people placing a link to the applicable pages on my web site,

Thank goodness! I just listed two lenses on your classic list for sale at eBay and did link to your site. I never even considered you might not want the traffic... Of course I would never copy anybody's text without permission.

Cheers,

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Jack - Thank goodness! I just listed two lenses on your classic list for sale at eBay and did link to your site. I never even considered you might not want the traffic... Of course I would never copy anybody's text without permission.

I have no problem with people referencing my web pages as it allows potential buyers (or just people curious about the lens in question) to find further information if they so wish. What I do object to is: people using my words as their ad copy without giving me credit, or using words attributed to me directly in their ad to make it look like I endorse their products and service. A reference (link or URL) to my site avoids both of these issues.

BTW, those two lenses are truly Future Classics in every sense. They are two of my all-time favorite lenses and were a big part of the inspiration for the Future Classics section of my web site. Sorry to see you selling them. Hopefully, it's because you are moving up to 8x10 or ULF and need even more coverage.

Kerry

[Marko]

BTW, those two lenses are truly Future Classics in every sense. They are two of my all-time favorite lenses and were a big part of the inspiration for the Future Classics section of my web site. Sorry to see you selling them. Hopefully, it's because you are moving up to 8x10 or ULF and need even more coverage.

After all this discussion about eBay and assorted crooks, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to form a section on this forum where participants could a) list their eBay handles in a way that email addresses are handled now and b) notify the community when they have an auction going.

This could help us all have a bit more assurance about who we are dealing with and we could also make sure that the person is who they say they are.

Regards,

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

This issue has now been resolved to my satisfaction. I received an email from eBay Customer Support at 9:15am this morning stating that they had removed the infringing listing. I have verified this - the listing has indeed been canceled.

Also, now that I have faxed in the completed VeRO "Notice of Claimed Infringement" form and they have my signature on file, I can submit further infringement notices electronically using their VeRO Reprting Tool.

All's well that ends well. Thanks to Marko and all who responded with helpful advice and support.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I also just received an email from the seller apologizing for the infringement. His apology seemed sincere. I sent him a response explaining my position and telling him he could include a reference to my Future Classics page (complete URL) if he decides to re-list his lens. As long as he doesn't directly use my words in the description of his item, he has my blessing.

Again, all's well that ends well.

Kerry

[Jack Flesher]

Kerry: Sorry to see you selling them. Hopefully, it's because you are moving up to 8x10 or ULF and need even more coverage.

Hi Kerry: No worries there, these were duplictes ;) I recently bought up a couple of used LF outfits for other bits and pieces and these were part of those outfits.

In case anybody here is interested, and I do not want to break any forum rules, but my user ID on eBay is "gear-nut"...

Cheers,