Processing and Printing

[jimbobs]

Hi. Moving from a soft water area to a hard water area with my darkroom. Would film and paper take a little longer or same to process. Or would you get an inline water filter.? Thanks Ray

[xkaes]

All of this depends on how hard the water is and how good the filter is. In any event, run some tests.

The filter should at least remove "grit". The rest can be dealt with by running tests to adjust development time whether or not you adjust the PH.

[Drew Wiley]

Hard water can also sometimes leave calcium etc deposits on you film and prints. Distilled water recommended for film developer and final rinse; and you should have both hot and cold line filters for your print washer, or preferably for your entire darkroom.

[Michael R]

If you are using commercially packaged processing chemicals water quality will make no difference (as long as it is clean of course) since they contain sequestering agents for calcium and other metals. When processing film (sometimes paper), using distilled water for a final rinse with wetting agent, after washing, can be helpful.


Hi. Moving from a soft water area to a hard water area with my darkroom. Would film and paper take a little longer or same to process. Or would you get an inline water filter.? Thanks Ray

[Drew Wiley]

Michael - the implications of water "hardness" can vary dramatically, especially in arid parts of the West. In some places, even borates are in the water. And don't assume municipal water is involved. It could be private well water.

[Michael R]

Well, borates don’t have anything to do with hardness. Anyway the concentration of borate in any fresh water would be inconsequential.


Michael - the implications of water "hardness" can vary dramatically, especially in arid parts of the West. In some places, even borates are in the water. And don't assume municipal water is involved. It could be private well water.

[Peter Lewin]

We have very hard water where I live in NJ. I use distilled water when mixing fixer and for the final rinse before hanging film up to dry. I use the hard tap water for pre-soak, working dilution of developer, stop bath, and in my washer, and have had no problems. However my developing time for pyrocat/HP5 is significantly shorter than the standard recommendations (based on my own testing) and I did read somewhere that the minerals in hard water can impact development times, so I suggest you do some testing before developing anything important.

[Duolab123]

We have very hard (calcium carbonate) water. We use a water softener to preserve appliances (dishwasher, water heater etc) I use reverse osmosis, purified water for solutions. Softened water uses ion exchange to convert calcium carbonate to sodium carbonate, sodium carbonate messes with developer chemistry.

No easy answer, most black and white chemistry will work with most ordinary tap water.

[Tin Can]

Just a reminder

DR Trays are cheap and available new

I have up to 20X24 and 3 of those fit inside a used Arkay SS 7' X 30"

There are more available new and in stock than 7 years ago

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=trays&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma

[Tin Can]

DR water usage varies by COST

[xkaes]

I thought it was the other way around -- cost is dependent on water usage.

[Tin Can]

Lol



i thought it was the other way around -- cost is dependent on water usage.

[Doremus Scudder]

Hard tap water is fine for the processing steps (diluting developer stop and fixer concentrates and washing). As noted above, if your water is fairly hard, you may have a slight change in development time. I processed in two countries for a number of years; my "Oregon time" was 10% more than my "Vienna time."

Use distilled water to mix developer stock solutions and for a longish final rinse after washing, with wetting agent (Photo Flo). You need to soak longer than needed just to get the surfactant effect to leach out the minerals. I like 4-5 minutes.

Water softeners that use salt or potassium chloride don't help much. They just replace one mineral with another. You still need a long distilled-water soak at the end of processing with water softeners.

Reverse-osmosis water is mineral free and good, but I wouldn't install an RO system just for the darkroom. Distilled water is cheaper

For prints, same thing, except if you squeegee your prints well, you don't need a final rinse in distilled water.

Best,

Doremus

[Drew Wiley]

Borates don't have anything to do with hardness! .....Ha,ha, ha, ha, .... Spoken like a true northerner who has never even tasted desert water. Go to Stovepipe Wells for a swig of calcium carbonate, rock salt, and yes, Twenty Mule Team borax, all in the same gulp. Thankfully no toxic alkalai right there. But you're welcome to add extra borax to your developer any time you wish, to see if it affects anything or not.... which of course, it will. The more common issue of calcium is how it builds up on things if not properly rinsed, or alas, in things like water lines and equipment, building up over time....
Don't remind me, my water heater is getting to that point, even in this area known for its soft water.

[Michael R]

In the desert aren’t you supposed to find a barrel cactus for water or something like that?


Borates don't have anything to do with hardness! .....Ha,ha, ha, ha, .... Spoken like a true northerner who has never even tasted desert water. Go to Stovepipe wells for a swig of calcium carbonate, rock salt, and yes, Twenty Mule Team borax, all in the same gulp. Thankfully no toxic alkalai right there. i

[Drew Wiley]

When desert backpacking, you're supposed to have along an extra gallon of water per person per day. Double that if you need to get back out the same way if a wished-for spring turns out to be dry. So that makes any Evian expense pretty significant. I remember one trip deep in those canyons where the day-night temp swing in Nov could be nearly 80 degrees. Standing out in the hot noonday sun getting thirsty, I was literally jumping on thick stream ice trying to crack through it, wearing an 85 lb pack at the same time. Then I noticed icicles hanging from the sandstone wall seep, still completely cold in the shade, which were an easier water source for resupplying my canteen. One learns to sip just a little water at a time, or else take it in quantity with food like a soup, so as not to upset one's stomach with all the dissolved mineral content.

But what was reeeeally crazy about the hardness of the water seeping off the cliffs was the presence of sodium or saline silicates, which will INSTANTLY and PERMANENTLY bond to anything glass, including a lens. Even a single drop will do it. That was in fact the demise of one of my lenses, at least for personal use. I did manage to sell it off "as is".

[Michael R]

That sounds like the old fashioned way. My understanding is now people just buy those fancy overland vehicles with 10,000 gallons of fresh water.


When desert backpacking, you're supposed to have along an extra gallon of water per person per day. Double that if you need to get back out the same way if a wished-for spring turns out to be dry. So that makes any Evian expense pretty significant. I remember one trip deep in those canyons where the day-night temp swing in Nov could be nearly 80 degrees. Standing out in the hot noonday sun getting thirsty, I was literally jumping on thick stream ice trying to crack through it, wearing an 85 lb pack at the same time. Then I noticed icicles hanging from the sandstone wall seep, still completely cold in the shade, which were an easier water source for resupplying my canteen. One learns to sip just a little water at a time, or else take it in quantity with food like a soup, so as not to upset one's stomach with all the dissolved mineral content.

But what was reeeeally crazy about the hardness of the water seeping off the cliffs was the presence of sodium or saline silicates, which will INSTANTLY and PERMANENTLY bond to anything glass, including a lens. Even a single drop will do it. That was in fact the demise of one of my lenses, at least for personal use. I did manage to sell it off "as is".

[Duolab123]

I love my RO setups. I have same setup upstairs and another downstairs in my darkroom. The one in the darkroom has a bigger tank. I still fill gallon bottles, let the air come out of the water.
It's so nice to have plenty of water. In an emergency these tanks are great for extra water.