View Full Version : replacement for tetenal neofinBlue
replacement for tetenal neofinBlue
I would like to hear any info as to a supplement or a replacement for tetenal neofinBlue. I did some study and review on it…
one idea that can to mind after doing a read out of the chemical precautions list and what is in the developer what is 4-Methylaminophenol sulphite
it is a developer is it metol + phenol
???DTPA Na 5 what is that ???
an idea to use Potasiun iodide [instead of bromide] as a restrainer ——-and salt[table].
so would make the action of developng the Ag.=recurculation actin on the film.!??
Any ideas ????????????
Michael R
6-Apr-2022, 08:19
Why not buy Neofin Blue from Tetenal? https://tetenal.com/en/homepage/consumer-shop/black-white-chemistry/100127/neofin-blue
4-Methylaminophenol sulphate is metol
DTPA Na5 is the pentasodium salt of DTPA, which is a metal sequestering agent
Generally bromide should be used as a restrainer in most developers with contemporary films. Table salt is too weak to be of much use as a restrainer.
Why not buy Neofin Blue from Tetenal? https://tetenal.com/en/homepage/consumer-shop/black-white-chemistry/100127/neofin-blue
4-Methylaminophenol sulphate is metol
DTPA Na5 is the pentasodium salt of DTPA, which is a metal sequestering agent
Generally bromide should be used as a restrainer in most developers with contemporary films. Table salt is too weak to be of much use as a restrainer.
replacement for tetenal neofinBlue
thanks for the reply!!
It is not readily on stock - it is a bit too expensive.
And I do use it beyond what it was made for.
The whole point is that basically Neofin blue is a clean and sharp developer SO I am looking for this qualities. As it is a in form only as a one shot developer. I would like to modify this!! to a working solution of 1_lt. wth continuous shelf life.
Where I would replenish it.
the test was done for 200_asa fomopan 9x12cm.
exposed at 800asa
so I can photograph hand held the camera 1/125-1/250 __f/16
So tetenal Neofin blue, at 26c 7min agitation non-stop
the high temp is a normal room temp Athens Gr. from end April -till Oct.
this is why the modifications.
your info as to DTPA Na5 is the pentasodium salt of DTPA.....was most helpful - my I submit some more Qustions ????
Bernice Loui
6-Apr-2022, 11:48
Or mix your own, Beutler High Acutance developer. Been using this developer formula for decades.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/fdnb.htm
Bernice
Michael R
6-Apr-2022, 12:57
replacement for tetenal neofinBlue
thanks for the reply!!
It is not readily on stock - it is a bit too expensive.
And I do use it beyond what it was made for.
The whole point is that basically Neofin blue is a clean and sharp developer SO I am looking for this qualities. As it is a in form only as a one shot developer. I would like to modify this!! to a working solution of 1_lt. wth continuous shelf life.
Where I would replenish it.
the test was done for 200_asa fomopan 9x12cm.
exposed at 800asa
so I can photograph hand held the camera 1/125-1/250 __f/16
So tetenal Neofin blue, at 26c 7min agitation non-stop
the high temp is a normal room temp Athens Gr. from end April -till Oct.
this is why the modifications.
your info as to DTPA Na5 is the pentasodium salt of DTPA.....was most helpful - my I submit some more Qustions ????
Ask any questions you want. I can't guarantee anyone on the forum will have the right answer but people will try to help. Ultimately you will probably have to do some experimentation since most of the old acutance developers were formulated when film emulsions were quite different, particularly with respect to mechanisms for increasing sharpness.
There are several formulas you could use as starting points, but before trying to create a version of Neofin Blau, I would first suggest trying Rodinal. My recollection of the old Neofin Blau is that the results were similar to what you get with Rodinal.
Or mix your own, Beutler High Acutance developer. Been using this developer formula for decades.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/fdnb.htm
Bernice
replacement for tetenal neofinBlue_r3
Beutler High Acutance developer
had a look at the link this Beutler High Acutance developer shows it was a two solution type.
Had had worked with something like this.
I was doing black&white work street photos years[35] ago, used something like this__ it as a two bath developer where temp could be 18c to 24c __you would prewash film 21c 1-min then into solution A 1-min immersion then into B solution 1-min immersion _stop_rapid fix __quick wash dry with hair blow dryer then print 13x18 cm. prints total time 20. min with 10 prints strait out.to the newspaper….
BUT you could not push the films 100asa only at 100asa
thank you for the info
I will look into this with a new eye.
joho
ADOX FX-39 is said to be based on NEOFIN RED: https://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-film-developer/adox-fx-39/
Tom Monego
8-Apr-2022, 10:06
I started to use the Beutler formula when I came across several vials of Neofin Blue and really liked it. A very simple mix, I have always used it 1:1:8, since I have started using film again I reaquainted myself with the formula. Like the results, I may have to try the FX-39.
ruilourosa
8-Apr-2022, 12:33
Dtpa may well be the secret... As is on hc110 and ddx... Wonder where i could buy some cheaply... In europeu..
Michael R
8-Apr-2022, 13:02
DTPA is not the secret to anything. It’s a metal chelating agent for impurities. All commercially prepared developers contain at least one of these sequestering agents. The benefit of DTPA in particular vs other agents such as sodium hexametaphosphate (calgon), EDTA etc. is that DTPA has a stronger affinity for iron and copper, which is why it is virtually always used in developers containing ascorbates such as XTOL and Adox XT3 (these metals can catalyze a fast oxidation of ascorbates). It is in plenty of other non-ascorbate photographic chemicals though.
DTPA is more difficult and expensive for individuals to obtain compared with say EDTA.
Dtpa may well be the secret... As is on hc110 and ddx... Wonder where i could buy some cheaply... In europeu..
ruilourosa
8-Apr-2022, 23:48
Last version of tfdc mentions its use in hc110 and ddx and works as a sequestering agent, yes, that being no secret, bit it seems that it has a convenient effect in avoiding silver replating again in the emulsion avoiding phisical development.
The level that this mechanism is important on a non solvent high acutance developer maybe marginal...
ruilourosa
9-Apr-2022, 01:37
well... in hc-110 was pvp, i do not know now... but the effect is supposed to be the same!
ADOX FX-39 is said to be based on NEOFIN RED: https://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-film-developer/adox-fx-39/
so what is the difference between neofin Red and Blue in termes of chemistry ??? any info ????
Last version of tfdc mentions its use in hc110 and ddx and works as a sequestering agent, yes, that being no secret, bit it seems that it has a convenient effect in avoiding silver replating again in the emulsion avoiding phisical development.
The level that this mechanism is important on a non solvent high acutance developer maybe marginal...
If I was seeking to make a [type] of phiyscal developer for film would this be practical ...?? by adding P.Ioded and table salt -or magnisium salt ??
so what is the difference between neofin Red and Blue in termes of chemistry ??? any info ????
I trired lookig up ADOX FX-39 as to its make up but did not find any formulas.
Michael R
10-Apr-2022, 11:18
FX-39 is an MQ-carbonate developer, likely an “evolution” of the PQ FX-37.
Bernice Loui
10-Apr-2022, 13:11
Box of Neofin Blau circa 1974 from Adolf Gasser (SFO) $3.49.
226422
What's inside.
226423
If there is any interest. curiosity, the film development/info sheet can be scanned then posted.
Bernice
so what is the difference between neofin Red and Blue in termes of chemistry ??? any info ????
The RED has been discontinued years ago. It was formulated for faster films (above ISO 200).
Box of Neofin Blau circa 1974 from Adolf Gasser (SFO) $3.49.
226422
What's inside.
226423
If there is any interest. curiosity, the film development/info sheet can be scanned then posted.
Bernice
if you have the time it would be appreciated...
ruilourosa
11-Apr-2022, 00:51
If I was seeking to make a [type] of phiyscal developer for film would this be practical ...?? by adding P.Ioded and table salt -or magnisium salt ??
Fx1 has this homeopatic amount of iodide that Crawley said to be paramount to the acutance mechanism...
Never heard of magnesium but if you add sodium cloride to some developers you increase fine grain effect.... Microdol seems to work that way. I cannot confirm that this could work on all developers. But i would try .... Maybe rodinal or fx2...
One of the 2 neofins was catechol based the other was close to beutler metol formula
Fx1 has this homeopatic amount of iodide that Crawley said to be paramount to the acutance mechanism...
Never heard of magnesium but if you add sodium cloride to some developers you increase fine grain effect.... Microdol seems to work that way. I cannot confirm that this could work on all developers. But i would try .... Maybe rodinal or fx2...
One of the 2 neofins was catechol based the other was close to beutler metol formula
thanks for the reply!
about caterhol that would have been "Red" neofin ?
for the magnisium salts it is an idea --chloride [warm tone] with magnisium [metel] to tone the negetive in development just an idea !??
simple Epsom salt ....
interneg
11-Apr-2022, 04:15
Fx1 has this homeopatic amount of iodide that Crawley said to be paramount to the acutance mechanism...
You have to start from the position that Crawley at the time he formulated FX-1 seems to have only been partially aware of the growing body of knowledge about iodide placement within emulsions - and that FX-1 was created around the time when a lot of emulsions still had fairly 'buried' iodide. Today, it is known that higher solvency can produce higher sharpness because it can access iodide specifically placed for that purpose (and other development inhibition effects). Most of the assumptions about developers that have been repeated ad nauseam for the last 80 years seem to be based on emulsion technology that became steadily obsolete with technology changes between 1955-1965 - they'll still develop film today, but they aren't as optimal for wide ranging use. A modern high definition developer would be more likely to be based around Dimezone-S & any of HQ/ HQMS/ Ascorbate (in a specific ratio range with the Phenidone - and 'superadditivity' is much less clear-cut than people assume) with some degree of optimised solvency (not zero solvency) & with a carbonate buffer - in other words, it's not about special ingredients, but the use of the ingredients.
if you add sodium cloride to some developers you increase fine grain effect.... Microdol seems to work that way. I cannot confirm that this could work on all developers. But i would try .... Maybe rodinal or fx2...
NaCl (20g/l?) is added to increase the silver solvency of Microdol/ Microdol-X (the '-X' is an anti-dichroic stain agent - specifically Chlororesorcinol)/ Perceptol beyond the 100g/l of sodium sulphite they contain. Any of these developers will do a better job at the metol exhaustion/ solvency access to development inhibiting iodide to improve sharpness effects than wasting effort with either Rodinal or FX-2. Beutler is sharp, but there has been extensive research done since then - and PQ developers can be made to better balance granularity: sharpness. Certain PQ developers (Ilfosol 3?) may be worth experimenting with NaCl addition - but I would reckon that Ilford already has experimented very extensively with various silver solvents when formulating both DD-X and Ilfosol-3 & with feedback from high precision MTF sharpness/ RMS granularity measurements, rather than guesstimates based off 1950s formulae (at best).
FX-39 is an MQ-carbonate developer, likely an “evolution” of the PQ FX-37.
Which tends to suggest that (at the point in time he formulated FX-39) Crawley was not terribly aware of the effects on sharpness of adding HQ to Metol only developers - nor that PQ developers can be balanced to be sharper than Metol only.
ruilourosa
11-Apr-2022, 05:06
Crawley had the curious habit of having 2 kind of sharpnesses... One closer to acutance the other closer to resolution.
Fx 1 keeps giving me the utmost sharpness effects acros to fomapan... Shity tonality though...
Negative tone can be important as seen with tanning devs... And although microdol, perceptol and fx5 tend to have a brownish cast (provinha the amount of physical development), its not the tone that matters the most...
Atomal, metolal and others also give a brownish cast but i do not see a benificial effect on its own...
You have to start from the position that Crawley at the time he formulated FX-1 seems to have only been partially aware of the growing body of knowledge about iodide placement within emulsions - and that FX-1 was created around the time when a lot of emulsions still had fairly 'buried' iodide. Today, it is known that higher solvency can produce higher sharpness because it can access iodide specifically placed for that purpose (and other development inhibition effects). Most of the assumptions about developers that have been repeated ad nauseam for the last 80 years seem to be based on emulsion technology that became steadily obsolete with technology changes between 1955-1965 - they'll still develop film today, but they aren't as optimal for wide ranging use. A modern high definition developer would be more likely to be based around Dimezone-S & any of HQ/ HQMS/ Ascorbate (in a specific ratio range with the Phenidone - and 'superadditivity' is much less clear-cut than people assume) with some degree of optimised solvency (not zero solvency) & with a carbonate buffer - in other words, it's not about special ingredients, but the use of the ingredients.
NaCl (20g/l?) is added to increase the silver solvency of Microdol/ Microdol-X (the '-X' is an anti-dichroic stain agent - specifically Chlororesorcinol)/ Perceptol beyond the 100g/l of sodium sulphite they contain. Any of these developers will do a better job at the metol exhaustion/ solvency access to development inhibiting iodide to improve sharpness effects than wasting effort with either Rodinal or FX-2. Beutler is sharp, but there has been extensive research done since then - and PQ developers can be made to better balance granularity: sharpness. Certain PQ developers (Ilfosol 3?) may be worth experimenting with NaCl addition - but I would reckon that Ilford already has experimented very extensively with various silver solvents when formulating both DD-X and Ilfosol-3 & with feedback from high precision MTF sharpness/ RMS granularity measurements, rather than guesstimates based off 1950s formulae (at best).
Which tends to suggest that (at the point in time he formulated FX-39) Crawley was not terribly aware of the effects on sharpness of adding HQ to Metol only developers - nor that PQ developers can be balanced to be sharper than Metol only.
The input with the info for this subject I have more understanding how intricate the chemistry is...
interneg
12-Apr-2022, 11:58
Crawley had the curious habit of having 2 kind of sharpnesses... One closer to acutance the other closer to resolution.
When did he state this? The problem is that people pronounce 'Crawley states...' without realising that he was writing for the better part of 50 years & his views seem to have changed (though not always keeping pace with the science) quite a bit over that time. The 'Image Content' analysis method that the industry seems to have adopted from the 1970s aims to relate MTF sharpness to RMS Granularity to visual perceptions of prints made from emulsions developed in the candidate developers in a scientifically meaningful way - i.e. if your MTF goes up massively, does that impact on granularity (for various reasons) and does that make the resultant print both sharper but less tonally attractive to the viewer (under double blind test conditions)?
Fx 1 keeps giving me the utmost sharpness effects acros to fomapan... Shity tonality though...
What may be happening is that FX-1 is essentially developing some of the emulsion a lot, rather than all of the emulsion a bit (i.e. it has issues accessing development centres) - this problem is known (& leads to some quite nasty tonality & extreme sharpness) with Phenidone only developers, but hasn't been noted with Metol only developers, though I'd need to check how low a metol concentration has been tested.
Negative tone can be important as seen with tanning devs... And although microdol, perceptol and fx5 tend to have a brownish cast (provinha the amount of physical development), its not the tone that matters the most...
Atomal, metolal and others also give a brownish cast but i do not see a benificial effect on its own...
'Staining' developers seem to produce a dye from the oxidation of a dihydroxybenzene or trihydroxybenzene in the absence (or near absence) of sulphite, rather than what is observed from the effects of the more severely solvent developers. There seem to have been real questions in the 1940s/ 50s in the industry over the longevity of those dye images - which you'd think would give people pause for thought as to why staining developers weren't pursued further, but other dye imaging systems were (i.e. chromogenic B&W - which can really deliver meaningful compensation via specific coupler behaviours, rather than the marketing bluff of someone trying to poison people with pyrogallol).
ruilourosa
13-Apr-2022, 00:30
My understanding comes from reading the bjp anuals, since 1960... Anchell and troop also refer this 2 kinds of sharpness, um MTF therms low frequency and high frequency.
Regarding fx1 i really do not care, when i use it, my aim is not tonality, i use for developing my canon Demi, Olympus ft and chaika negs, all half frame. Mostly for grain effects and non figurative work.
I have tryed most pyro or catechol developers and although i find some differences regarding highlight rendering, some grain softening on some tones, acutance effects and some added surprises in printing (some good), i really do not find any magic bullet, just different negatives... But they are different!!! And i have negatives from the 80's that still have the green pyro stain...
Regarding poisoning... You are right... But be careful with that hidroquinone and that paraphenilenediamine....
I usually develop most things in a divided mq or pq dev with a carbonate second Bath... Some times fx1 sometimes ds10x, sometimes id62 (the print developer), sometimes 510pyro or dixatol...
I want to use fx-16 but no pinacriptol and glycin went bad.. any alternatives? Anyone?
Bernice Loui
13-Apr-2022, 13:47
Neofin Blau 1974 info sheet set# 1.
226517
226518
226519
226520
Bernice
Bernice Loui
13-Apr-2022, 13:49
Neofin Blau 1974 info sheet set# 2.
226521
226522
226523
226524
Done,
Bernice
Neofin Blau 1974 info sheet set# 2.
226521
226522
226523
226524
Done,
Bernice
thanks for the info-sheet -abit diffeceult to read but ok
How can I post a photograph [negetive ] test from 9x12.5 worked in modified neofinblue ???
I am back with some interesting results. the study went into a creative mood. A modified Buetler with some NeoFinBlau solution was made which first gave a bit flat negatives- ... changed the ratio M-HQ was still soft added Sod-Hydroxide Eh!.. bit better... added then to developer some FX-39II and started to get the results I was looking for--BUT !!!! the real eye opener was with the arahati'liki syndrome !!!
this experiment was of the charts [for me at least]. At developing times into 30 min [temp 24-to-30 c] the sharpness !!!! this is at first look.
arahati'liki means to lay down rest and not move-
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