How do I get a warmer tone when developing BW film?

[pkr1979]

Hi all,

Ive been experimenting quite a bit with black and white reversal film developing, and Im getting pretty close to the look I want.

What Id like to adjust now is the tone, Id like a little bit warmer image. How may I achieve that?

Ive been developing TMY2 (at 200 ISO) for 12 minutes at 20 degrees using the Orwo 842 recipe (http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/rev_filmotec.htm) with metol instead of phenidone. Note that Ive used this recipe for both first and second developer (6 minutes for the second developer) as Im avoiding both thiocyanate and thiosulfate in the first developer (never had any luck with that).

Cheers
Peter

[Michael Wellman]

I've been wanting to start doing some reversal images and appreciate the recipe link. I am intrigued by the idea that you can get a warmer tone with a film? I had no idea. Definitely will be following this thread. thanks

[nolindan]

The second developer can be most anything. Very fine grain developers give 'warmer' results. So you could try Microdol-X (or whatever the Ilford equivalent is).

I imagine you can also use a sulfide developer for a sepia color.

[xkaes]

I imagine you can also use a sulfide developer for a sepia color.

Along this line, you could try a TON of various toners that are typically used for prints -- sepia, brown, copper, gold (which is actually brown), etc. -- POST processing. If used in a dilute form or for a short period of time, you can control the amount of toning.

[pkr1979]

Im considering toners. But, if Im not mistaken, increasing the amount of potassium bromide will warm paper, maybe this works for film too. Ive also considered longer exposures to shorten the developer time as this is also supposed to warm up the image. But Ive never tried so I dont know if it actually works. If I can avoid an extra step I'll do that, if not Ill use a toner.

[xkaes]

Much depends on what you mean by "warm" and how "warm" you want to get. Changing most developers won't change the color of the negative much. There are some "tanning" developers that work differently, and produce slightly brownish negatives, but if you want negatives that actually look brownish, I'd start with normal development, and then use a toner -- after processing, just like with a print. There are a ton to choose from -- and lots that you can mix from scratch.

Do you mix your own stuff or use off the shelf?

Have you toned prints before?

[Bernice Loui]

Warm tone silver gelatin prints?

Staining developers like Pyro based often alters the appearance of the developed film (color of the film density areas will be different), are not warm tone film developers. Pryo developers can aid in contrast (dynamic) range compression to allow making prints with remarkable contrast range not always possible with normal or standard developers.

As for warm tone prints, there are warm tone silver gelatin papers and warm tone paper developers like Ansco 130 that promote the visual appearance of a warmer tone print.

There are post process print toning processes that can also aid to achieving a warmer print appearance.

Key is to know what your print goals are and what is possible, then make a trade-off_compromise choice of what is ideal -vs- what is possible.


Bernice

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

I used Berg Blue Toner (apparently no longer made (https://www.freestylephoto.biz/232032-Berg-Toner-Blue)) with home processed reversal 16mm cine film in an attempt to emulate early cine hand painted and toned film. It worked well (I think we used Orwo UN54), so imagine that a similar warm tone toner would work.

[pkr1979]

I mean slightly warmer ;-) I mix my own stuff using a Orwo recipe where Ive replaced the phenidone with metol. I have also mixed up some Pyrocat M for developing negatives, but Im not so sure I'll use this a second developer as its 'too' warm for reversal. I assume though if I use a toner I can to this pretty subtle if diluted enough.

I have never toned prints, and toning these positives would be the first time toning anything.

[nmp]

Check this thread out:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/toning-b-w-slides-with-kala-namak.189593/

[maltfalc]

you could always toss a tea bag in your rinse water.

[xkaes]

I assume though if I use a toner I can to this pretty subtle if diluted enough.

With most toners, you put the film or paper in the toner for any amount of time at any dilution. The shorter the time and the more dilute the less tone. The good thing is that you can do it with the lights on and stop it when it's the tone you want.

And since you mix your own, there are tons to choose from. You can find them on the web or in books like "Photographic Facts and Formulas", Morgan & Morgan "Photo Lab Index", "The Photographer's Toning Book", and "Beyond Monochrome".

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

You can perhaps consider taking the route of dichromate intensification to get warm-tone slides. Haist** says: "When a silver image is intensified by using potassium dichromate-hydrochloric acid followed by redevelopment in D-72 developer diluted 1 : 3, a warmer-toned image results." You could also try using a Copper sulphate - Sodium chloride rehalogenating bleach instead of the dichromate intensifier in the above process. I have not tried this myself, but I guess results would depend a lot on the film itself. If you do try this approach, do share your results.

** Grant Haist, MODERN PHOTOGRAPHIC PROCESSING, Vol. 2.

[pkr1979]

Thanks guys. When is toning done in the process? After fix and before stab? It would be interesting to test the same scene with various degrees of toning.

I also got some hydrochloric acid as well and could mix up that kind of bleach. I also got D-72. Maybe diluting D-72 1:3 will make a warmer image then the Orwo second developer without the need to replace the dichromate-sulphuric acid bleach. How much is the second developer time extended when using a 1:3 dilution instead of a 1:2 dilution?

Another thing about mixing up a hydrochloric bleach... wouldn't the presence of chloride disturb the developing process?

EDIT:
PS Does a more diluted developer make warmer images? If so, if the Orwo second developer is diluted 1:1 instead of used full strength wouldnt this make a warmer image? If one in addition shortened the FD time (exposing at lower ISO), wouldn't you expect to see a difference?

[esearing]

I have been down this path. There is no paper developer that will give you a brownish tone rather than neutral gray even if described as a warmtone developer. Ethol LPD 1:4 will give a duller gray when compared to Ansco 130.

As others have stated you will need to use a toner after you have fixed your print to shift color. Partial or Full Bleach + redevelop in Pyrocat HD (or variants) will warm things up a bit and can even lean a bit toward olive. Thiourea can shift tones from golden sepia to chocolate depending on mix of Thiourea to Sodium Hydroxide and the extent to what is bleached. Poly/brown toners and Nelsons Gold Toner will get you somewhere in between but you have to learn when to pull the print. Selenium will make most Ilford papers lean toward aubergine or plum. Staining prints in Tea or coffee will shift the whites to warmer tones.

Paper will make a difference in the tone you get. Prints with lots of dark and light tones will tone differently than images with fewer tones.

If going the bleach/redevelopment route I would suggest a simple bleach of 20g Potassium Ferricyanide + 10g Potassium bromide + water to make 1Liter. This can even be diluted further if you want slower acting for partial bleaching of highlights only.

[nolindan]

I have been down this path. There is no paper developer that will give you a brownish tone rather than neutral gray ... Paper will make a difference in the tone you get.

Ditto.

In my experience warm-tone developers only make a difference when used with warm tone papers and an optional Se toner. The combination of warm tone paper, warm tone developer and Se toner is a bit over the top for me.

[xkaes]

Forget about using a different developer or adjusting the ISO/dilution. It won't make a difference.
And don't go down the bleach & redevelop road. It's not necessary.
Just develop your film the way you like it -- completely -- and then try some POST-PROCESSING toners. There are a ton to choose from that create "brown" tones. You change the intensity of the brown by controlling the dilution and time.
Just do a search for BROWN TONERS.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/16712-REG/Edwal_EDCT4BR_4_oz_Brown_Toner.html

Key Features

Converts Silver of B&W Prints & Film
Tones Prints in 4-10 Minutes
Works at 65 to 110°F
Single-Solution Toner

This 4 oz bottle of Edwal Toner for Black and White Prints is a single-solution toner that converts the silver image in black & white prints and film to a brown color.

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Thanks guys. When is toning done in the process? After fix and before stab? It would be interesting to test the same scene with various degrees of toning.



Toning, in the case of slides, can be done in two different ways - 1) by using a toner itself as the second developer. For example, you could make a sepia toner by dissolving a gram or two of Thiourea and a few grams of Sodium carbonate in a liter of water and use this in place of your Orwo second developer. The sepia toner converts silver halide into silver sulfide giving a brown tone. 2) by using a rehalogenating bleach and toner on the slides you got from your normal process. Here, the rehalogenating bleach converts the silver in the slides to silver halide. When you use a sepia toner subsequently, the halide is converted to sulfide as before. The sulfide gives the slide its brownish tone.

The advantage of the second method over the first is it gives you more control on toning. For example, you could partially bleach and tone to produce warm highlights. You could also use more than one toner.

Now, in both methods above, you can replace the sepia toner by a Catechol based staining developer. I prefer this at times over the sepia toner as it produces warm tone but fine grain slides whereas sepia toned slides usually have harsher grain.

Haist suggests a different alternative to the above approaches. His idea is to use a chloride based rehalogenating bleach (such as dichromate-HCl intensifier) to convert the silver in the slides to silver chloride. And then develop the silver chloride image using D-72 (dilution 1:3). This produces finer silver particles giving a hint of warm tone. This could be what you are actually seeking. However, only experimentation can tell if this method gives the results you want.

Before you try any toning, I suggest you read up about toning in general. Tim Rudman's books have a lot of techniques and insights for you to learn. Haist is also a very useful technical reference.

[xkaes]

Before you try any toning, I suggest you read up about toning in general. Tim Rudman's books have a lot of techniques and insights for you to learn. Haist is also a very useful technical reference.


Tim Rudman's book "The Photographer's Toning Book", is the one I mentioned before. It's the best book I've seen on toning, but may be more than you need -- unless you really want to get into toning. He has one chapter on brown/sepia/copper toning -- there are lots of options -- and another chapter on film toning, but that focuses on toning for protection/permanence rather than "coloring".

Much depends on how simple you want to make this. Just like normal film developing, you can make it complicated -- or use the KISS principle.

[pkr1979]

The KISS principle is not a bad idea. Its easy to get lost in all this experimenting.

[esearing]

And don't go down the bleach & redevelop road. It's not necessary.

Tim Rudman, who's book is often quoted, uses a Sepia + bleach/redevelopment in Thiourea process for his Iceland photos. He also likes Lith printing which is a far more complicated process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em4LxWxy_Is. - around 7:00 minute mark

[joho]

Seeing this theme for warm tone, You could look to certian developers form the agfa bovira papers.The developers had a modified chemical profile to make the them papers warmer in tone.
I think the tones where due to -sulfite to -carbonate ratio just an idea ???
I have some notes on this BUT !!! I do not know for bw film neg to pos. ???

[joho]

Seeing this theme for warm tone, You could look to certian developers form the agfa bovira papers.The developers had a modified chemical profile to make the them papers warmer in tone.
I think the tones where due to -sulfite to -carbonate ratio just an idea ???
I have some notes on this BUT !!! I do not know for bw film neg to pos. ???

[pkr1979]

Did anyone compare the Adox and Kodak selenium toners? Whats the difference, for film in particular?