f/stop printing

[brian steinberger]

I just purchased the book "way beyond monochrome," and the author is very fond of f/stop printing. I'm wondering how many here use this technique, as opposed to the tradition test strip. Also, for those who are familiar with f/stop printing, but choose the tradition way instead, I'm wondering why. I don't have a large dial timer for my enlarger, rather an audible one. Could I still convert this for f/stop printing if I decide to?

[Tom Hoskinson]

Brian, take a look at this:

http://www.rhdesigns.co.uk/darkroom/html/f-stop_printing.html

RH Designs make some nifty darkroom equipment, BTW

[Doug Howk]

I marked off f/stop intervals on a Gralab timer using glo-lite. Works great for a 1st or 2nd pass. Once I'm close, then switch to time increments for the test strips.

[Henry Ambrose]

Brian,

I'm not sure that "the traditional way" using time units really is "traditional". It seems obvious I suppose to use time units since thats what the timer gives you and stops of the aperture are already figured out for you. But as you welll know thats not how exposure works. How else would you do it other than -stops- knowing how exposure works? Who ever suggested using purely time units in the darkroom?

I've always used stops for exposure in the darkroom just like film in the camera. Its all halving and doubling - really very simple "in your head" math. Starting with a 10 second exposure, a full stop more is 20 seconds, a half stop more than 10 is half way in between 10 and 20 (you do the math). I can't see the need to buy a special timer to do that for me.

And I'm not saying anoyone is wrong for using a special stop timer - I just can't figure out why?

[Jim Noel]

I have always used a metronome and f-stop printing. Between the two all phases of printing become almost automatic.
It has never made sense to me to print using multiples of 2 or 5 or some other number. This method is too irregular and illogical for me.

[brian steinberger]

Jim,

Can you elaborate a little bit about how you use your metronome timer for f-stop printing? That's the kind of timer I have as well.

Henry's response makes alot of sense. So when you make a test strip would you use the following sequence for your test strip... 2sec, 4, 8, 16, 32? Or would you throw half stops in there as well, and make it 2,3,4,6,8,12,16,24,32... etc.?

This is starting to make sense to me and I'm sure once I am comfortable with it, dodging and burning will be much easier to predict, based on the difference of one stop in exposure.

[Henry Ambrose]

Brian,

I seldom make test strips or prints. I just make the first print based on knowing that my film, exposure and development and enlargement size are going to result in - "X seconds at X aperture". Of course this assumes you're not chasing around with a bunch of different films and developers. If I am doing some experimenting and working from SWAG I might make a test print which is small piece of paper that I hold at the subject of interest in the photo. I don't do steps - for me they are a waste of time and paper. If you need five or six different guesses at how your negative will print it might be time to reconsider your process of exposure and development. Or maybe you're shooting in some really tough conditions.

So anyway, I make the first print at 16 seconds at f8 (a standard for me). I run the print all the way through my process and look at it. Taking dry down onto account I look at the whole print to judge what needs to happen next. Usually I'm off one way or the other but the second print hits real close as I've decided its "1/4 stop light" or "1/2 stop dark" and adjusted appropriately.

I use both aperture and time to make adjustments. If the print was one half stop dark I'd most likely close the lens down a half stop leaving the time alone. I like keeping times in the 16-32 seconds range to keep dodges and burns manageable, easier to keep track of and accomplish. When your main times get too short your precision goes away for small adjustments - a 2 second burn is almost impossible for me to do the same time after time unless its a pretty gross move.

If the first print is really close I may make other adjustments like tweaking the contrast and start dodging and burning on the second but I suggest you not do that until you get the hang of this. By the third print I'm almost always "right on" the global exposure having bracketed my way there. And on that journey I've gotten a good read from the negative about how its tones relate to one another on the paper. If I've made a good negative that prints fairly straight, the hard part is over.

[Kirk Gittings]

Henry "I seldom make test strips or prints." "By the third print I'm almost always "right on" the global exposure having bracketed my way there."

What are all those prints getting to a "right on" global exposure if not test prints?

[Henry Ambrose]

Sorry Kirk and anyone else, I probably didn't write what I meant.

What I mean is that my intention is to make a good print right off the bat, first try. Which as I see it is the whole reason to use a meter and test your film and process - intention. What I am not doing is putting a piece of paper through thinking it won't be a print. So I suppose it is a test process? I do correct from that first and each subsequent print but I'm still swinging for the fence everytime. So if we are playing baseball - is a double or a triple or a base on balls a test?

I guess I should call anything thats not a finished fine print a test print but its not how I think about it. What I'm trying to do would be, in woodworking, "cut to the line" and not pare with a chisel to get the joint to fit. Not that it happens that way everytime -- but my intent is to get it right each try.

Or another way to say this might be from target shooting. I won't shoot all 10s but if I shoot each one as if it will be a 10 my score will be good and indicative of my ability to hold. Why pull the trigger if you think its gonna be a 7 out at six o'clock? So between my ears, its a 10 (or an X) everytime! (failing is very common but I keep trying).

I'm the same way making photos. I don't click the shutter if I think its not a picture. Why would I? OK, maybe I do expose some film thinking "this might be good" or "I bet I can blend the sky with this one" but thats as far as I go with it when using a big camera. Now if I'm shooting 35mm I do shoot a lot knowing that somewhere in there is the home run, but I still think "home run" everytime I push the button.

So, in my feeble little mind, as crazy as it sounds, I don't make test prints.
And I still won't even after this confession.
: >))

[Henry Ambrose]

Wow, one Red Hook ESB and I let loose with all that. The simple answer is I don't make test strips or step prints.

[paulr]

i always use time adjustments because i usually want the print to be as sharp as possible, and the lens is at its sharpest at only one aperture.

as far as thinking of time units in terms of stops (like you do when adjusting shutter speed) ... yeah, sure. but why is this an equipment issue? if you want the thing to be a stop darker, double the time. same with a metronome, a wristwatch, or a sun dial.

[Randy_5116]

I can kinda see where the f-stop print may help in control of print, but.. Has anyone used split-filter print method, and would the f-stop method work as well as timed steps at a set aperture? I have had good luck with the split-filter method, and have all but totally eliminated the dodge-burn issues. It still requires two test strips, one with a #00 filter and one with a #5, and then two exposures of the print, but it works well. I tried Henry's method of consistent time/ap and shoot for the "one-shot", but grand-dad wasted a LOT of paper before I gave up that method.

[Henry Ambrose]

One more clarification -

Like Paul I try to stay at "sharp apertures" with the enlarging lens. For the example I started with that means f8 plus or minus one half stop. So in this instance, f5.6 1/2 to 8 1/2. Thats plenty close for me and keeps my times where I want them.

[lee\c]

Randy,

I use split filter grade printing with the RHDesigns Stopclock Pro timer everytime a print. I would not do it any other way.

leec

[Andrew_4548]

Lee,

Do you do split grading on the stopclock by highlights or shadows first?

I used to split grade (with test strips and linear timings) by using a soft grade to get the subtle hightlights first and then switch to a hard grade to bring in the shadows to the required depth. This was done by keeping the same time and opening up the aperture as required...

I've now got an Analyser Pro which I think is great and it uses f-stop timing (which I'm getting used to) but according to the instructions, you expose the hard filter first and burn in with the soft as this is how it gives extended exposure time when going softer.

Any hints and tips or should I just keep slogging on? ;-)

Thanks,

[nolindan]

... wrote:

> i always use time adjustments because i usually want the print to be as
> sharp as possible, and the lens is at its sharpest at only one aperture.

Same here, ND filters can be a help -- they let my use the optimum aperture when print times would otherwise be too short for good dodge/burn control.

[Chan Tran]

The idea of the f/stop timer is a simple one. What it does is to allow you to change the time in term of stops. Changing the exposure time in term of f/stop results in the same change in density. Changing the same amount of exposure time does not. For example if you increase exposure by 1 stop then the change is the same whether the first print was made at 10 sec of 20 sec. But if you add 10 second to your exposure times you do not get the same change on the print. It's easy enough when the change is of a full stop. For example if your print time is 10 sec. and you want the next print a stop darker then it's simply 20 sec. But what if you want 1/5 of stop more not a full stop? Well you can use the math 10*2^(1/5)=11.49 sec. This is basically the first f/stop timer does for you. The newer one like the stop clock pro can do it in 1/24 stop increment or so as well as providing you with a sensor to measure your negative to help you also for selecting paper grade. You can achieve all these with a good on easel densitometer and an accurate timer and do the math on a say programmable calculator or a software program running on your computer. These f/stop timers simply provide you all of these features in a single convienient package.
The conclusion is that these timers are useful and I think is worthwhile. If you're the tinkering type you can devise the same thing for yourself.

[robc]

yes but how much simpler to use a percentage instead. Say 100% to double the time or 20% or 10%. The percentages apply equally well if you have created a print map of your work print and want to go from a 10x8 to 20x16. Infact just like fstop printing.

The advantage of using percentages is that the maths is much simpler than using fstop calculations. Infact so much simpler that you can use the the computer between your ears to do it and you don't need to spend money on expensive and unecessary equipment and you don't have to free up hands to punch in numbers.

RH designs kit is good. I have an older one but I don't use it for Fstop printing anymore because I find using percentages so much simpler.

[martin howard]

Brian,
For a long time I used the percentage method and it served me well. My times were:
8, 12, 18, 27, 40, 60
As you will notice, each test strip has exactly half a stop (50%) more exposure than the previous one and the numbers are easily learned, so too are the between numbers.

The above is very similar in principle to the f-stop printing method that Gene Nocon published. Here's a copy of the times that I use and from what I've seen, they are identical to the RH Designs f-stop timers, but where their machine does it all for you, you have to dial/punch them in yourself.

The truth is, that there is no one system that is better or worse - but whatever system you use, get to know it and be consistent.

Marty

[paulr]

I'm not sure that "the traditional way" using time units really is "traditional". It seems obvious I suppose to use time units since thats what the timer gives you and stops of the aperture are already figured out for you. But as you welll know thats not how exposure works. How else would you do it other than -stops- knowing how exposure works? Who ever suggested using purely time units in the darkroom?

Exactly ... this always struck me as someone trying to pattent common sense.

[Slade Zumhofe]

Randy,

I use split filter grade printing with the RHDesigns Stopclock Pro timer everytime a print. I would not do it any other way.

leec

I will second Lee. Both of these concepts changed my printing for the better.

Everyone that says the f/stop timers aren't needed are correct----but, it is a great instrument that lets you keep focused on the "art" of printing and not the mechanical part. We could probably all start converting foot candles to EV #'s as well but we have a meter to do that job. Sometimes equipment is just easier.

[nolindan]

Department of Shameless Self-Promotion:

I will have a display table with the Darkroom Automation F-Stop Timer and DA's just announced Precision Enlarging Meter at View Camera Magazine's Large Format Photo Conference in Rockford Il June 9-11, 2006. The vendor area is free with lots of exhibitors so if you are in the area please stop by.

References:
http://www.viewcamera.com/pdf/2006/vc_conference_2006.pdf
http://www.nolindan.com/da/fstop/

[lee\c]

it should be noted that the Darkroom Automaton F-Stop Timer is not associated with Les McLean as the article on Mr Lindan's website might suggest. Mr. McLean uses the RH Designs Stop Clock.

lee\c

[lee\c]

Lee,

Do you do split grading on the stopclock by highlights or shadows first?

I used to split grade (with test strips and linear timings) by using a soft grade to get the subtle hightlights first and then switch to a hard grade to bring in the shadows to the required depth. This was done by keeping the same time and opening up the aperture as required...

I've now got an Analyser Pro which I think is great and it uses f-stop timing (which I'm getting used to) but according to the instructions, you expose the hard filter first and burn in with the soft as this is how it gives extended exposure time when going softer.

Any hints and tips or should I just keep slogging on? ;-)

Thanks,


Sorry for not answering sooner. I didn't see this thread. I too use the soft light first. One thing I have been doing is I use Green for the soft filter and Blue for the hard filter rather than the more conventional Yellow and Magenta filters. I bought a green gel and a blue filter from the Rosco filters to match pretty close to the Green 58 and Blue 47b. I use an aristo vcl 4500 also and these allows me to use both enlargers without having to think too much about what I am doing wrt filtration. I don't know much about the Analyser Pro just the Stop Clock.

lee\c