Are print drums a more practical way to print big in a bathroom?

[Certain Exposures]

My enlarger can handle 11 x 14 prints from 35m up to 6x7. The problem is that I can't fit several 11x14 trays in my space in any configuration. However, maybe I could use a single drum. I just now thought of this, so I have to do more research later. I figured some of you might have experience with this already.

Would this be an easy way to achieve my goal?

I'd probably have to stick to RC paper for this size because washing would become a nightmare.

[Ulophot]

Years ago I processed prints up to 16x20 in the old Cibachrome drums. I would say that your idea is quite workable to 11x14. If you have a drum roller base, all the better; if not, a flat surface with enough room to roll the drum back adn forth a bit more than a full rotation. RC is definitely the way to go, though you should be aware that washing in the drum will not clean the chemistry from the back of the print well. Someone else may have a better solution, but I would suggest some kind of narrow tub or tray that you can rinse the print in, dipping side to side as in handling a Slinky spring toy, or getting an inexpensive tray large enough for your prints that you can fill, slosh, and dump, if necessary at the bathtub or kitchen sink. I had to wash my prints for many years in a plastic tub in the bathtub.

[Ironage]

Yes. I believe that would be a good solution. Even if you had the space, the only disadvantage to the drums would that you cannot see the magic of the image appearing as it develops. You can wash a print in a tray through dumping and refilling. This need not be in a sink, a countertop may do. Look at the Paterson RC wash trays which drain through a hose.

[Tin Can]

Some stack trays with space to work vertically

[maltfalc]

vertical tanks are an option too.

[Martin Aislabie]

Have you considered a NOVA vertical slot processor.

Instead of 3 horizontal trays, there are 3 (B&W) or 4 (colour) vertical slots for you to hold dev/stop/fix.

Designed specifically for those who can only print in small spaces.

You could then wash your prints either in a bath tub or shower tray - outside your darkroom if needs must.

Good luck.

Martin

[Certain Exposures]

Have you considered a NOVA vertical slot processor.

Instead of 3 horizontal trays, there are 3 (B&W) or 4 (colour) vertical slots for you to hold dev/stop/fix.

Designed specifically for those who can only print in small spaces.

You could then wash your prints either in a bath tub or shower tray - outside your darkroom if needs must.

Good luck.

Martin

Thanks, I'm waiting for the new one to come out. I see 11x14 drums for under $80 so I might take the plunge. Doing a little research on the "best" designs.

[Certain Exposures]

Some stack trays with space to work vertically

That's true...I don't have enough room for that either! :D Well, I suppose I could but I think it would be too awkward to get in and out of the room.

[Certain Exposures]

Yes. I believe that would be a good solution. Even if you had the space, the only disadvantage to the drums would that you cannot see the magic of the image appearing as it develops. You can wash a print in a tray through dumping and refilling. This need not be in a sink, a countertop may do. Look at the Paterson RC wash trays which drain through a hose.

Thanks!

[Certain Exposures]

Years ago I processed prints up to 16x20 in the old Cibachrome drums. I would say that your idea is quite workable to 11x14. If you have a drum roller base, all the better; if not, a flat surface with enough room to roll the drum back adn forth a bit more than a full rotation. RC is definitely the way to go, though you should be aware that washing in the drum will not clean the chemistry from the back of the print well. Someone else may have a better solution, but I would suggest some kind of narrow tub or tray that you can rinse the print in, dipping side to side as in handling a Slinky spring toy, or getting an inexpensive tray large enough for your prints that you can fill, slosh, and dump, if necessary at the bathtub or kitchen sink. I had to wash my prints for many years in a plastic tub in the bathtub.

Thank you! I think I'll go for this. I wash 8x10 in a try right now. I'd love to do 11 x 14 fiber but washing multiple 8x10s is a already a pain with a tray.

[gnd2]

I use a drum to print RA4 up to 16x20 in the bathroom. I wash everything (RC, fiber, BW and RA4) in a tray in the bathtub. Up to 11x14 I use an old print washing tray with continuous flow of water.

There is also a single tray method where you use one tray and fill and dump the dev, stop and fix. I haven't tried it but you might want to google it.

[Drew Wiley]

Absolutely! I used drums up to 20X24 in a small bathroom before I ever had a real darkroom space. But I could have hypothetically fit even my current 30X40 inch drum processor in there if I had to. But I was doing color prints in those drums. The problem with fiber-based black and white prints is that they can go floppy at a certain size in a drum, and potentially collapse during the processing. But I wouldn't worry about small prints like 8x10 or 11X14; and since b&w RC prints are specifically in question here, they should do fine even in large sizes in drums.

The main problem with drums when doing black and white prints is that you can't visually observe under a safelight the progress of development. You can still do test strips at a set time, and then adjust your final print time accordingly. But having the ability to see what is actually going on has real benefits.

Tray washing of RC prints is easy, and doesn't take nearly as long as fiber based prints. It helps to have an oversized tray for this, and something like a Kodak automatic tray siphon. But washing RC prints inside the drum itself can also be done with several changes of water, and IF the drum had ribs inside which allow solutions to get behind the print during rotation.

[Graham Patterson]

I have done 20x16 fibre prints in a Jobo drum by hand rolling. One benefit is that you are using almost fresh chemistry (one or two prints per shot of developer/fix) so the process time is consistent with stable temperature.

You *must* dry the drum fully between uses. Even a clean but wet drum will cause uneven development.

Since you can daylight process in drums, it gives you a chance to ventilate a small space.

[xkaes]

Drums are the way to go. Every print gets fresh chemicals -- unlike trays -- and it forces you to get your exposures correct. You also use a lot less chemicals so you save money. There are lots of systems out there, but they are all basically the same. Some more expensive than others.

You can choose the roll the drums yourself, or get an electric roller, or make one yourself with four small wheels. Or for the best in temperature control, get a water bath system.

As for washing prints, you can have a couple of quick rinses in the drum, and they hang the prints on a clothes line over the tub and use the shower sprayer to get them clean.

[Tin Can]

As I am a contrarian

I don't like ANY Drum

not JOBO

not the others

not arguing

[Drew Wiley]

Of course you don't. You prefer a tin can developing container.

[Jim Noel]

Have you tried a "Tray Stacker"? They were a space-saver for me when I had a darkroom 2ft x 6 ft with a 5x7 enlarger.

[revdoc]

A while ago I switched to single-tray processing due to a lack of space, and it worked so well I wished I'd done it years before. Here's what steered me in this direction:

https://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm

[Certain Exposures]

A while ago I switched to single-tray processing due to a lack of space, and it worked so well I wished I'd done it years before. Here's what steered me in this direction:

https://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm

Hmmmmmmm. Interesting point here, thanks. I have to think about this. It could make things a chore but I get to see the development!


I have a quick question for anyone reading. How much chemistry does it take to fill 11x14 trays on average? My guess is that 1000mL might not be enough. I use 8x10 Patterson trays.

[Certain Exposures]

As I am a contrarian

I don't like ANY Drum

not JOBO

not the others

not arguing

Why?

[Certain Exposures]

Thanks for all the replies so far everyone! I'm reading everything.

[gnd2]

Hmmmmmmm. Interesting point here, thanks. I have to think about this. It could make things a chore but I get to see the development!


I have a quick question for anyone reading. How much chemistry does it take to fill 11x14 trays on average? My guess is that 1000mL might not be enough. I use 8x10 Patterson trays.

1000mL is what I use in 11x14 trays, just right IMO.

[Certain Exposures]

1000mL is what I use in 11x14 trays, just right IMO.

Oh sweet!

[Duolab123]

I have a lot of sink space, 10 foot and 8 foot sinks. Still not long enough for the 5 or more trays to process big black and white prints from beginning to end when toning etc. I have a couple nice apx 3 gallon plastic pails. I use a single tray and dump solutions in and out of the tray. I do a quick wash in the tray, then tone etc. If I'm doing a few prints (fiber) I part the completed prints in a tray or other container of water until a thorough final wash.
Print drums work great. Just have a lot of drums, or clean drying towels or both:o I don't enjoy the clean up after with these tubes.

If doing black and white rc prints a single tray works great, follow Ilford instructions.

[xkaes]

I have a quick question for anyone reading. How much chemistry does it take to fill 11x14 trays on average? My guess is that 1000mL might not be enough. I use 8x10 Patterson trays.

Drums use 10% or less of what trays use -- PLUS each print gets fresh chemicals. Two ounces for an 8x10, four for an 11x14, eight for a 16x20, etc. Trays = money down the drain.

[LabRat]

I have printed B/W in small bathrooms with a bathtub many times with a simple trick...

Along the long dimension of tub, cut 2 or 3 pieces of 2X4 lumber that forms a shelf at least 3 trays can rest solidly on (a good idea to coat the lumber with a sealant)... On the floor of the tub can be one or two other trays for washing or print hold FB pre-final wash... The lumber shelf can be later removed and usually stored in some corner or along wall on floor...

The next bottleneck will be drying those wet prints, but several options...

Possible...

Steve K

[Duolab123]

Drums use 10% or less of what trays use -- PLUS each print gets fresh chemicals. Two ounces for an 8x10, four for an 11x14, eight for a 16x20, etc. Trays = money down the drain.

Very good points.

[LabRat]

Drums use 10% or less of what trays use -- PLUS each print gets fresh chemicals. Two ounces for an 8x10, four for an 11x14, eight for a 16x20, etc. Trays = money down the drain.

But trays will usually do 10 or a dozen prints, so works out the same-ish...

And if processing FB, wet prints will not stay in place in drum, and require just sitting still after image first forms in tray...

Steve K

[esearing]

Drums use 10% or less of what trays use -- PLUS each print gets fresh chemicals. Two ounces for an 8x10, four for an 11x14, eight for a 16x20, etc. Trays = money down the drain.

In a tray you do multiple prints in 1 or 2 liters (1L = 33ounces) and can use working strength solutions over multiple days/sessions. 1 Liter can generally be used for 40 8x10 prints, so your 2oz x 40prints requires 80ounces vs 33ounces. It. may be more convenient for an infrequent printer if just making a few prints but I would fill the tube vs using minimal chemicals for paper.

Stack or even staggered trays on risers are a good way to go. I even have used a plastic cart with 3 drawers + big bin for washing. A small card table will also hold 4 11x14 trays in a small space and you can hacksaw the legs to fit two in the tub with a slight slant toward the tub for spillage.

[Tin Can]

Exactly, I have floating tanks to reuse chems, always ready and at correct temp sitting in my sink

This 2oz wet dream works...

But chemistry must be carefully applied in a plastic machine or more plastic tubes....leaks

I do use ARKAY Poly chemistry tanks like this https://www.adorama.com/pest5g.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw_tWRBhAwEiwALxFPoRifeGmklmezdinGXwI25q3U4wnSxEAY9JMjhiz3jhrwgG3V-lDaZBoCSGMQAvD_BwE&gclid=CjwKCAjw_tWRBhAwEiwALxFPoRifeGmklmezdinGXwI25q3U4wnSxEAY9JMjhiz3jhrwgG3V-lDaZBoCSGMQAvD_BwE&utm_source=adl-gbase-p

All those tube are becoming very rare as are the 2-1/2 gallon tanks

B&H is out of stock, but I got my best deals with ADORAMA

A Plastic Paper safe IS handy!

https://www.adorama.com/l/?searchinfo=paper%20safe&sel=Item-Condition_New-Items

[xkaes]

Trays aren't so bad if you are doing 5x7 and 8x10 stuff, and don't do any special processing -- like toners. But with larger prints, trays are a royal pain in the butt -- wasting space in a cramped location, dealing with spills, working always in the dark. Ridiculous.

With tubes you basically need no space at all -- even with large prints. You get to work with the lights on. You use fresh chemicals each time. I've never had a problem with leaks. I've never had a problem with fiber-based paper -- except that it sticks to the inside of the tube and requires more care in removal from the tube. There's also less fumes -- especially in a cramped space.

It's a personal choice of course. Some photographers like to work in the dark with their hands in the chemicals so they can show their blackened fingernails to their friends. "I love the smell of acetic acid in the morning." More power to 'em.

[jnantz]

some people love drums to both process their film and prints I don't like them for either. I've had a unicolor roller and both the print drum and the other one that looks like a plunger at the end (for reels)
but I never warmed up to the leaking of chemistry ( even though I have instructions, fresh gaskets and Vaseline as instructed by unicolor when I talked to them on the phone about use ). I'd put whatever amount it was/roll or sheet and
2/3 of it would spin and leak right out of the roller tube. . not a fan of using fresh chemistry ever print or every roll of film, not a fan of developing prints blind like cooking in a pressure cooker and not seeing anything until the end. There was a guy years ago who wrote an article (GreyWolfe?) somewhere, not sure if it was here in the archives or the olde apug back in like 2004, he put a thick bread of some sort of clear calk/urethane sealant or something to seal up the leaks, I wasn't up for making such an irreversible mess out of the mess that already was. I hope the system you find doesn't require you purchase cases of diapers ( to put under the roller motor to sop up the developer &c that might leak all over your counter and floor ) and I hope your are happy with whatever system you get..
I'm too broke to be constantly buying chemistry and diapers, I guess I could deal with the developing prints blind, I develop prints blind.

you might consider constructing a bench of some sort that straddles your commode it it might be large enough for a stacking or spread out tray system, (and fasting so well you don't need to disrupt your printing session with . you know )

[Tin Can]

I started developing MINOX film in a 3 X 3 ft wood box with no vent, no water age 7, 1950's

Horrible, put me off of self processing 40 years

Took a college wet film class age 47, just as DIGI began

I bought a $1000 Digi, now long gone and a F70 to do ALL assignments (my idea) with both

The DR was huge, walk in labyrinth, all chemistry and 35mm film provided, Arista aka KODAK at that time

The print trays huge and used from both side, buckets of dry chemistry under the sinks, with barrels of it in the next room

Music, women too! 24/7 access

I usually used the DR weekends overnight when it was empty. I always cleaned up first, made new chems in 3X5 ft trays all the time

Endless running water tapped directly from Lake Michigan for wash

Then they destroyed the entire college into grass where few go

So I wanted my own!

I have made it so, twice since then

My best DR was 5 years ago. Now 1/2 size in new location

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50294151041_aa6285c24f_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/8Kyp10)11X14 Mistake Darkroom (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/8Kyp10) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

The 5 story college

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51701527837_5603f2cfc5_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/PnN8Hs)Barat College (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/PnN8Hs) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

My second to last DR

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51627112160_7b230d9fa2_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/L6e9UU)2013 2 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/L6e9UU) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51626256006_5ea401e138_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/y5299K)DSCN3572 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/y5299K) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Tin Can]

Here is my current tiny DR

7ft sink, 5 enlargers and Dip Tanks, Gas Burst, Temp control

I converted a small bedroom

I gathered and setup this stuff with very little cost

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51724420405_6f3343ec7d_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/Y3A96x)Pex Hot and Cold (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/Y3A96x) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[xkaes]

Except for my Cibrachome 4x5" drum, I've only used Colourtronic drums from 8x10' to 24x36". I've never had a problem with leaking, but I can't speak to Unicolor, Beseler, Jobo, etc. And even if I did have a leak, I use the drums in my sink -- because they fit. Even my huge drum takes up little space -- in my sink. I have trays up to 24" -- which I need to use for certain processes, like toning -- but the big ones are a PITB.

[jp]

I don't really like drums for printing.. I used to have one for color printing long ago. it leaked a tiny bit. The unicolor roller was noisy. I couldn't watch the magic, and even though I don't normally appreciate the magic of it in the darkroom, I do when I'm deprived of it. The drums are not as easy to clean as trays.

For small prints, I also like to have multiple in the pipeline... I might have one in fix or rinse while another is developing, or come from the enlarger with a test strip while one previous print needs to be moved on from developer. You can only do one chemical for one print at a time in a drum. It really slows things down needlessly for small prints. For big prints if you need time efficiency, stacking trays is something I've done.. I built a wooden stand to hold a try above a tray so I have more room for trays. If volume is not needed, one tray processing is pretty easy... Drain chemicals from tray keeping the print in the tray.

[xkaes]

I don't really like drums for printing.. I used to have one for color printing long ago. it leaked a tiny bit. The unicolor roller was noisy. I couldn't watch the magic, and even though I don't normally appreciate the magic of it in the darkroom, I do when I'm deprived of it. The drums are not as easy to clean as trays.

I gave up on "watching the magic" while developing color enlargements in a tray a long time ago. I tried it several times, but it never seemed to work for me. I still think that the problem was that I couldn't find the darn tray. So I turned on the lights and switched to tubes.

[Bill Burk]

Can you show us your tiny space? Maybe there's a dry space option you haven't considered.
I can't imagine not having enough room for at least two 11x14 trays... Dev and Fix. Then take out to the light to wash.

Had a darkroom in a bedroom with shag carpet (layed down plastic to protect the carpet and carried water in from the bathroom).

Had a darkroom in a basement I could only use at night because the crawlspace vents let in light. Carried water there to the kitchen and kept quiet with the family about the pots I used to mix developer in.

There must be an option.

Of course tubes and vertical systems can really help make it possible.

[Drew Wiley]

I suspect Tin Can actually does use drums. What else would a suspended bicycle be for, suspended over a darkroom sink, if not rotating something?

[Tin Can]

Chicago has winter, I also hoisted the bike trailer up there, the hoist is made to quickly deploy bike or kayak

I have plenty of tubes in the shed and 2 power rollers

Tried the tiny floating film tubes, sold them

[linhofbiker]

Chicago has winter, I also hoisted the bike trailer up there, the hoist is made to quickly deploy bike or kayak

I have plenty of tubes in the shed and 2 power rollers

Tried the tiny floating film tubes, sold them

Do you have any "color canoe"'s in that shed. I used to have an 8x10 and 16x20 and they make great planters because they were good quality SS.

[Tin Can]

Yes I have one Color Canoe 8X10 NOS

I wanted to see and hold one

I am big on 'Show and Tell'

I also have the Tilt a Whirl Paterson NOS

How is your Linhof Motorcycle?

My 883 now qualifies for Antique license plate

but what color?

I have 3 sets of Tins

Black, White, Yellow

I prefer mix and match

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50791557326_451997b24b_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/5W2we7)1997 XL 883 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/5W2we7) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

and Macro

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50791660522_1fd89930a3_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/58N859)883 Macro 11X14 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/58N859) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr


Do you have any "color canoe"'s in that shed. I used to have an 8x10 and 16x20 and they make great planters because they were good quality SS.

[linhofbiker]

My Linhof motorcycle was a Spanish Bultaco Sherp S moto-crosser in parts till I sold it to help finance my 1991 RR Tomcat "motor-crosser' with 4 wheels instead.
In my youth I had a 1954 Royal Enfield Bullet, which I sold to get my 1959 MGA twincam in 1965.

[Tin Can]

MGA far better looking than MGB

[linhofbiker]

MGA far better looking than MGB

Agree. Mine was a red coupe that redlined at 7000rpm. I got it up to 7000rpm on a long downhill stretch of Austrian autobahn in 1965 trying to catch a Porsche 911 Targa. The speedometer was "pegged" at 120mph. That was exciting! Traded it 18 months later for a 1959 AH Sprite because I couldn't afford to run the MGA. Sold Sprite to get married and ended up with a Renault R16 in Montreal. That was one of favorite family cars.

[Tin Can]

1969 straight out of HS we drove a $100 TR4 top down nonstop Chicago to LA beach and ran into the sea

then my lady flew in

In Tijuana I was in fear of my blonde disappearing

[Duolab123]

I had a 60 or 61, MGA, 1600 a friend of my Dad's helped us rebuild the engine, new crankshaft and fancy pistons. It was fast but, I don't think I ever had it over 70. Pretty exhilarating for a 16 year old. I recall paying $160 for it, knowing that it had almost no oil pressure, of course I drove it until I ruined the crank.

[linhofbiker]

I had a 60 or 61, MGA, 1600 a friend of my Dad's helped us rebuild the engine, new crankshaft and fancy pistons. It was fast but, I don't think I ever had it over 70. Pretty exhilarating for a 16 year old. I recall paying $160 for it, knowing that it had almost no oil pressure, of course I drove it until I ruined the crank.

That 1959 AH Sprite I had was set up for racing with a cross-flow head and I was told a "special" race ready crankshaft. I was parked and got my foot stuck on the gas pedal and that little engine roared. As I drove away somewhat embarrassed, I began hearing a strange knocking sound from the motor. Later I took the engine out and carried it up to my flat's kitchen table. When I took out the crank it was in 2 parts. It was a standard crank not the so called race ready one. Bummer.

This was 1967 and I was a computer programmer working in the City of London. I met my wife in London, she was a Southern Lady from Jacksonville FL. We were the same age, 23 at the time. We were married in Gainsville FL in early 1968 and moved to Montreal.

[Certain Exposures]

A while ago I switched to single-tray processing due to a lack of space, and it worked so well I wished I'd done it years before. Here's what steered me in this direction:

https://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm


Hmmmmmmm. Interesting point here, thanks. I have to think about this. It could make things a chore but I get to see the development!


I have a quick question for anyone reading. How much chemistry does it take to fill 11x14 trays on average? My guess is that 1000mL might not be enough. I use 8x10 Patterson trays.


I use a drum to print RA4 up to 16x20 in the bathroom. I wash everything (RC, fiber, BW and RA4) in a tray in the bathtub. Up to 11x14 I use an old print washing tray with continuous flow of water.

There is also a single tray method where you use one tray and fill and dump the dev, stop and fix. I haven't tried it but you might want to google it.


I have a lot of sink space, 10 foot and 8 foot sinks. Still not long enough for the 5 or more trays to process big black and white prints from beginning to end when toning etc. I have a couple nice apx 3 gallon plastic pails. I use a single tray and dump solutions in and out of the tray. I do a quick wash in the tray, then tone etc. If I'm doing a few prints (fiber) I part the completed prints in a tray or other container of water until a thorough final wash.
Print drums work great. Just have a lot of drums, or clean drying towels or both:o I don't enjoy the clean up after with these tubes.

If doing black and white rc prints a single tray works great, follow Ilford instructions.


Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! I decided to go with a single 12x16 tray after reading all of your comments. Some comments for any future readers:

- Most eBay sellers weren't sure if their print drums had all the necessary parts or were functional.
- I heeded the reports of extended cleanup time with drums or the possibility of spilling.
- I enjoy seeing the print as it develops for no particular reason. This was not a major deciding factor.

I'm still willing to give a drum a shot at some point. I'm okay with this tray for now. Some cons about using a single tray:

- A 12x16 Patterson tray needs at least 2000mL of chemistry to cover an 11x14 sized sheet of paper. It would require around 2200-2500mL to cover a 12x16 sized sheet.

- Dumping the chemistry back into beakers in low light was difficult until I learned how to work around it. In general, using a single tray makes the process more tedious but not so much more tedious it's unjustifiable (to me).

- According to Lina Bessonova's testing, you need a long wash or several static water baths to ensure archival results on fiber paper, even with hypo-wash. It would take all day to make a handful of fiber prints in succession with a single tray unless I cut the wash time drastically. I'll figure out how to address this later.

- I realized that the way I did test strips would have to change. I tried testing with an 8x10 sized sheet of paper, but the results didn't translate well to the 10x10 sized image. I think it's because I couldn't see enough of the image to determine how much light was necessary.

-11x14 rc paper and fiber paper are so expensive that every mistake hurts. It took four failed prints before making this rough one that I still don't appreciate all that much. I think it could look better with more work, but the cost is prohibitive. The challenge is a double-edged sword because I enjoy looking at the bigger size print enough to work harder to make nice pictures.


https://i.imgur.com/QbF2JYv.jpg

[Tin Can]

I keep a big trash can with good liner bags under my sink

and trash a lot of wet paper

until I get it right, then always make 3 to 10 right away

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh. I never use that much paper to get what I want, generally just a test strip or two, and then right to the end result. That approach works about 80% of the time. Maybe I've just got very accustomed to certain papers with my enlargers. If I'm planning on more "keeper" prints than one or two, I wait for full toning and total air drying before evaluating the results.

[Tin Can]

Admit it Drew, you are better than I!


Gosh. I never use that much paper to get what I want, generally just a test strip or two, and then right to the end result. That approach works about 80% of the time. Maybe I've just got very accustomed to certain papers with my enlargers. If I'm planning on more "keeper" prints than one or two, I wait for full toning and total air drying before evaluating the results.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh ... anyone who secretly develops their film in a round tin can, just so they can claim they don't use a drum, can't be all that bad!

[Duolab123]

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! I decided to go with a single 12x16 tray after reading all of your comments. Some comments for any future readers:

- Most eBay sellers weren't sure if their print drums had all the necessary parts or were functional.
- I heeded the reports of extended cleanup time with drums or the possibility of spilling.
- I enjoy seeing the print as it develops for no particular reason. This was not a major deciding factor.

I'm still willing to give a drum a shot at some point. I'm okay with this tray for now. Some cons about using a single tray:

- A 12x16 Patterson tray needs at least 2000mL of chemistry to cover an 11x14 sized sheet of paper. It would require around 2200-2500mL to cover a 12x16 sized sheet.

- Dumping the chemistry back into beakers in low light was difficult until I learned how to work around it. In general, using a single tray makes the process more tedious but not so much more tedious it's unjustifiable (to me).

- According to Lina Bessonova's testing, you need a long wash or several static water baths to ensure archival results on fiber paper, even with hypo-wash. It would take all day to make a handful of fiber prints in succession with a single tray unless I cut the wash time drastically. I'll figure out how to address this later.

- I realized that the way I did test strips would have to change. I tried testing with an 8x10 sized sheet of paper, but the results didn't translate well to the 10x10 sized image. I think it's because I couldn't see enough of the image to determine how much light was necessary.

-11x14 rc paper and fiber paper are so expensive that every mistake hurts. It took four failed prints before making this rough one that I still don't appreciate all that much. I think it could look better with more work, but the cost is prohibitive. The challenge is a double-edged sword because I enjoy looking at the bigger size print enough to work harder to make nice pictures.


https://i.imgur.com/QbF2JYv.jpg

I use a small archival washer with a magnet drive pump from a Noritsu color processor. Washing prints takes as constant agitation as can be achieved, moderate temperatures (60-75°F), and time for the fixer to defuse out of the gelatin. The multiple static baths work, as long as the prints are separated.

Tin Can's gas burst setup with papers in hangers would work.

Archival washers are a massive water waster used as designed, constant water flow from a tap is inadequate flow. Many times tiny air bells form on the surface of the print.

I fill my washer with tepid water, run the pump which is probably pumping 6-7 gallons per minute, drop my pre-rinsed prints into the washer and let the pump do the work. I usually run 3-4 complete cycles. Totally empty the washer, and refill with fresh water.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, your stereotype of "archival washers" sure doesn't sound like any of mine. Wrong description on every count.

[Duolab123]

I use archival washers. I just don't rely on line pressure for water flow through the unit. I fill them up with tap water. Then I pump the water over the prints until there is an equilibrium of sorts. Then open the drain valve and evacuate all the water as quickly as possible, and refill as quickly as possible (usually with a bucket) and run the sequence again.
I use a mixing valve to insure that the water is at apx. 70°F

It's much more efficacious. Running in tap water at 1 or 2 or 3 gallons a minute is too slow. I need to make a video.

There's a washer, I've seen that uses compressed air ,coming up from a plenum, like gaseous burst agitation. That's pretty cool too.

I didn't mean veer off the main topic of drums. Drums work great if you have plenty of drums and time and space to wash them up afterwards.

[wclark5179]

When I had to make a large print, I would put at least one, usually fixer, sometimes two on the floor in the darkroom. It wasn’t very often. 20x24 is the largest I made and I used trays for 16x20 and sloshed the print around! My print washer could easily accommodate 20x24 prints.