What's the most compact 4x5 enlarger in terms of vertical height?

[Certain Exposures]

I've been trying to work out how to enlarge 4x5 negatives in my space. The ceiling is too low for the enlargers I've researched. I have a maximum available height of 50" from the baseboard and 20" from the back of the enlarger to the front where I would stand. I wouldn't print larger than 16 x 20. Mostly 8x10 and some 11 x 14.

Do you think moving is my only solution?

[Sal Santamaura]

Are you up for a refurb project? If so, perhaps this is for you:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/284698511002?ViewItem=&item=284698511002

I've no connection to the seller.

[ruilourosa]

Diy through intrepid enlarger head???

[Bob Salomon]

No, a wide angle enlarging lens is your answer. The 120mm Rodagon WA will give you a much larger print at the same head height as a normal 45 lens. Without sacrificing optical quality.

[Doremus Scudder]

It will likely be a tight squeeze, but I think it's doable with a 135mm wide-angle enlarging lens (or shorter, like the 120mm Bob mentions). I just measured my Beseler 45MX with a 135mm Nikkor enlarging lens and the head set up for the last 16x20 print I made. The top of the color head was 46 inches from the top of the baseboard. Mind you, my color head is a 5x7 Chromega head adapted to the Beseler chassis, so maybe a bit lower than the Beseler color head would be (not sure here), but still, that's less than the 50 inches you have available. The distance from baseboard to the top of the frame on both my Beselers is 43 inches. Note I'm measuring from the top of the baseboard, so if you consider the thickness of the baseboard, you need to add two inches to that. Still doable.

Plus, you can always find a way set up your enlarger lower than countertop height. Simply cutting away the countertop to inset your enlarger a bit so the baseboard is flush with the countertop will get you that two inches back. Or, like many, you can build a lower table for your enlarger that allows it to sit significantly lower than the countertop and you can work from a seated position using a stool or chair.

Have fun figuring it out.

Doremus

[Oren Grad]

I can double-check mine when I go downstairs later, but I think the LPL 4500 II / 7451 should fit your space. The later XLG version won't - both column and baseboard are larger. Specs here:

http://www.khbphotografix.com/LPL/LPL7451.htm

EDIT: Just measured my 4500 II. Height will just fit within your 50" limit, but taking into account the baseboard as well as a slight projection to the rear by the head, it needs somewhere around 25-26 inches front to back. If you turn the enlarger sideways on the workbench, you would need 24 inches front to back. If you can't find anything else that will fit, you could have a smaller baseboard made for the 4500 II.

[Certain Exposures]

I should clarify something. Right now I'm using a Beseler Printmaker 67 and it doesn't have an option (that I know of) to house a 4x5 sized negative. I'll need to get a whole new enlarger that can fit in the space at the dimensions I mentioned. I'm about to step away from the computer so I will read your replies once I return. Thanks everyone!

[Bernice Loui]

Consider altering the way any enlarger is mounted. For a table top enlarger, much of the enlarger height is taken up by the table it sits on. Remove the table mount, place the base board near the floor will lower the overall height of the enlarger and allow more distance between base board to enlarger head which is central to enlargement/magnification ratio.

This applies to any table top enlarger.

Wide angle enlarging lenses will reduce enlarger head to base board distance for a given magnification/enlargement trading off light fall off. The light fall off problem can be worked on and aided by apply a light source compensation opposite to the light fall off of the lens (ala LF wide angle lens center filter).

Sort of enlargers which are essentially a view camera with a light source might appear to be a compact solution until the realities of what is required to properly set up the enlarger will and can prove to be a ride each time.


Bernice

[xkaes]

You've got a few options to consider -- some mentioned below. I'll add a couple more. You can use these singly or together and get what you need.

Height of the enlarger itself. This is determined by two things -- the height of the enlarger head and the height of the column(es).

B&W condenser heads are usually much taller than color heads -- so even if you don't do color, you might consider a color head.

The columns can be one or two. These come in various heights. Shop around for shorter columns. My CB7 has much taller columns than my MXII, for example.

One option, depending on the column(s) and your situation is to shorten the column(s) yourself -- but consider that as a last resort.

Lowering the baseboard is perhaps the easiest approach, but that has its drawbacks.

A wide-angle lens might be all that's needed, but that depends on if you have enough space for the column(es) and head.

In short, measure your space from where you want the baseboard to the ceiling. Then look for enlargers WITH the HEAD attached that will fit-- you might have better luck with used gear.

My ceiling is too low for my enlarger heads to go all the way up the column, so I take off the baseboard (which is at waist height) and make BIG prints on the floor. My enlargers are basically on tables with holes underneath them.

[Pieter]

A horizontal enlarger, or one with a tilting head.

[Tin Can]

Some Beseler offer 90 degree tilt for wall projection

[Bob Salomon]

You've got a few options to consider -- some mentioned below. I'll add a couple more. You can use these singly or together and get what you need.

Height of the enlarger itself. This is determined by two things -- the height of the enlarger head and the height of the column(es).

B&W condenser heads are usually much taller than color heads -- so even if you don't do color, you might consider a color head.

The columns can be one or two. These come in various heights. Shop around for shorter columns. My CB7 has much taller columns than my MXII, for example.

One option, depending on the column(s) and your situation is to shorten the column(s) yourself -- but consider that as a last resort.

Lowering the baseboard is perhaps the easiest approach, but that has its drawbacks.

A wide-angle lens might be all that's needed, but that depends on if you have enough space for the column(es) and head.

In short, measure your space from where you want the baseboard to the ceiling. Then look for enlargers WITH the HEAD attached that will fit-- you might have better luck with used gear.

My ceiling is too low for my enlarger heads to go all the way up the column, so I take off the baseboard (which is at waist height) and make BIG prints on the floor. My enlargers are basically on tables with holes underneath them.
Or, wall mount the column at a convenient height and then fabricate a table for the easel.

[xkaes]

Some Beseler offer 90 degree tilt for wall projection

I suspect that this is not an option in this case.

I do use horizontal projection with my MXII, but my CB7 does not allow that. To solve that minor problem I attach a Spiratone SQUINTAR (a 90 degree, rotating, front-surface mirror) to the front of the enlarging lens. It was sold under various names and usually has a Series VII thread on the back. Works great, but probably also irrelevant for the OP.

[ic-racer]

A room that won't allow even a D5XL column would be too small to walk into. Are you processing on your knees or on the 7.5th floor :D


225600
225601

[Dugan]

How about a Crown Graphic with a Graflarger attachment?

[xkaes]

[QUOTE=ic-racer;1636460]A room that won't allow even a D5XL column would be too small to walk into. Are you processing on your knees or on the 7.5th floor :D

I know, but for some reason, some people don't like to make prints on their knees. Been there. Done that.

[ic-racer]

I know, but for some reason, some people don't like to make prints on their knees. Been there. Done that.

But the OP is asking for a SHORTER column; processing on one's stomach?? :)

[xkaes]

That's why Home Depot sells hacksaws.

[jnantz]

How about a Crown Graphic with a Graflarger attachment?
couldn't agree more! I suggested the same sort of thing in the "contact print" thread ..
these days there are LED light source panels bright and even enough they can replace the old style graflarger back
and the light source won't get hot enough to damage the lens.

[nolindan]

From The Vision of Milty Boil by Howard Fast. Excerpt via StackExchange.

The eponymous Milty Boil is a developer who manages to get the minimum ceiling height reduced:


And Milty made friends and built influence. By 1975, at the age of thirty-five, he was considered the most influential man in New York City. His influence was such that he was able to have a number of significant changes made in the building code—among them the lowering of the minimum height of the ceilings to seven feet. With this achieved, he built the first one-hundred-story apartment house in New York. In 1980, riding the crest of the wave created by the population explosion, Milty Boil managed to have the city council pass an ordinance permitting ceilings of six feet in all apartment buildings over fifty stories high.


The story ends:


But where is there a great man who has not suffered the barbs of envy and hatred? Slander is the burden the great must carry, and Milton Boil carried it as silently and patiently as any man. On the modest headstone that graces his final resting place, an epitaph written by Milty himself is carved: “He found them tall and left them small.” To which our generation, standing erect and proud under our three-foot ceilings, can only add a grateful amen.

[ic-racer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2js9Z6rtENA

[xkaes]

Another approach is just to buy an enlarger WITHOUT a chassis/column. These show up on EBAY all the time, and cost a lot less.

Then make a chassis/column to fit. There's a current discussion covering this approach on this FORUM:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164217-DIY-8x10-(or-larger)-Enlarger-Chassis

[Certain Exposures]

Hello everyone! Thanks for your suggestions so far. Here's what my space looks like. I had trouble inserting an image the way I wanted to at first:

https://i.imgur.com/Oex5dyx.jpg


I'll respond to a few comments in a moment.

[Certain Exposures]

It will likely be a tight squeeze, but I think it's doable with a 135mm wide-angle enlarging lens (or shorter, like the 120mm Bob mentions). I just measured my Beseler 45MX with a 135mm Nikkor enlarging lens and the head set up for the last 16x20 print I made. The top of the color head was 46 inches from the top of the baseboard.
Doremus

Thanks, I'll look into this enlarger and enlarging lens more later! I have costs to consider but narrowing down which models work is my first challenge.




EDIT: Just measured my 4500 II. Height will just fit within your 50" limit, but taking into account the baseboard as well as a slight projection to the rear by the head, it needs somewhere around 25-26 inches front to back. If you turn the enlarger sideways on the workbench, you would need 24 inches front to back. If you can't find anything else that will fit, you could have a smaller baseboard made for the 4500 II.

Thanks, I'll add this enlarger to my list of ones to research. I'm not sure how important those last 4 inches would be for balance. Probably not crucial.


Consider altering the way any enlarger is mounted....
Sort of enlargers which are essentially a view camera with a light source might appear to be a compact solution until the realities of what is required to properly set up the enlarger will and can prove to be a ride each time.
Bernice

Yes, that's my fear. I'd rather get a standard enlarger.




In short, measure your space from where you want the baseboard to the ceiling. Then look for enlargers WITH the HEAD attached that will fit-- you might have better luck with used gear.


Thanks, that's the goal! I just need to know what the max needed height for a 16 x 20 enlargement of a 4x5 negative on any given enlarger would be (assuming the column fits in the 52" space).


How about a Crown Graphic with a Graflarger attachment?

Thanks, I ordered 2 in the past but they both arrived broken. I've opted for a standard enlarger since then for the reason outlined in Bernice's comment.

[Greg Y]

I just measured my Beseler 45MXT & it would work..... but i use the Zone VI VC head..... You'd save even more height by using a simple cold light head. But you might be squeezed for room for your space to stand as the baseboard of the MXT is approx 30." I think the MXT with a wide angle enlarging lens would be the ticket for printing 16"x20"The head size comparison makes a lot of difference in overall possibility[

ATTACH=CONFIG]225638[/ATTACH]

[xkaes]

Someone should have a formula for computing the distance from the baseboard to the negative stage for a 16x20" print of a 4x5" negative -- with the focal length of the lens as a variable.
I'm sure you won't be able to get the head to the top of the column, but a wide-angle lens might solve that problem.

[jnantz]

Thanks, I ordered 2 in the past but they both arrived broken. I've opted for a standard enlarger since then for the reason outlined in Bernice's comment.

Sorry to read you got burned, if you still have them, it looks like "aristo grid" is still in business (in the UK at least) you might email them and see if they are still able to retube them and adjust the leaky transformer or know who does that these days, they used to do that sort of thing ... (probably any neon shop can do it, it's just a neon tube that's inside the head)
when I got mine it worked extremely well ( as-is / when purchased) and with a copy stand and very little effort on my part, it rivaled the omega that I currently use. I had plans on driving across the states photographing roadside architecture and living in motels, printing and processing the film but sadly life hit me like stepping on a rake and my plans changed and I sold it.

good luck!

[Tin Can]

https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-enlarger-kit-full

[xkaes]

That's really NEAT -- especially if you have an Interpid camera. I suppose, with a little ingenuity, it could be attached to just about any 4x5. Intrepid should consider offering adapters to increase sales -- maybe they do?!?!?

[Certain Exposures]

https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-enlarger-kit-full

Intrepid's first version of this 4x5 enlarger kit came out in May 2019. The Kickstarter had a modest goal of 15,000 euros and raised 103,982 euros. Impressive.

Yet, three years later, there's not a single comprehensive review that I can find on the internet of this kit's pros and cons after long-term use by any of the 444 original backers or people that purchased it afterward. The 4x5 enlarger kit has an incredible lead time of 10 - 12 weeks.

That's mind-boggling to me. Do you think I'm unreasonable for not being willing to spend the money and wait that long without any decent reviews out there? Also, Bernice's point still rings in my ears. I can't imagine that there isn't an issue with finickiness.

A good review would inspire my confidence, but there aren't any out there after years. I don't understand why this is the case.

[Certain Exposures]

Sorry to read you got burned, if you still have them, it looks like "aristo grid" is still in business (in the UK at least) you might email them and see if they are still able to retube them and adjust the leaky transformer or know who does that these days, they used to do that sort of thing ... (probably any neon shop can do it, it's just a neon tube that's inside the head)
when I got mine it worked extremely well ( as-is / when purchased) and with a copy stand and very little effort on my part, it rivaled the omega that I currently use. I had plans on driving across the states photographing roadside architecture and living in motels, printing and processing the film but sadly life hit me like stepping on a rake and my plans changed and I sold it.

good luck!

Thanks for that breakdown. I have a few quick questions:

- What copy stand did you use?

- Do you recall how high you needed to mount the camera to make an 11 x 14 or 16 x 20 enlargement?

- Did you use an enlarger lens or your standard 150mm photo lens?

- What did you do to minimize shaking? Was the copy stand enough?

I have many questions about setups like these because the convenience would do me wonders, but I am skeptical about the user experience.

[Tin Can]

Are you studying Glennview camera (http://www.glennview.com/index.htm), he is the man to study


Thanks for that breakdown. I have a few quick questions:

- What copy stand did you use?

- Do you recall how high you needed to mount the camera to make an 11 x 14 or 16 x 20 enlargement?

- Did you use an enlarger lens or your standard 150mm photo lens?

- What did you do to minimize shaking? Was the copy stand enough?

I have many questions about setups like these because the convenience would do me wonders, but I am skeptical about the user experience.

[jnantz]

It was a copy stand that U-Line used to sell. I don't think they sell it anymore, not sure I haven't purchased anything from them in a long long time. The baseplate is heavy and column is sturdy and the "head" / connection is pretty beefy. I really didn't have to worry about shake it was sitting on something anchored/heavy wasn't going anywhere. I used my taking lens, / a computar symetrigon and a wollensak 135. Sorry but I have no memory of how high the head / camera was or maximum print size was, I wasn't printing 11x14+ but 5x7/8x10, this was more than 20 years ago, and it worked fine. I used it a handful of times so I'd be prepared for the trip but as I mentioned life kind of kicked in. I sold the graflarger, and the copy stand is on a shelf. You can be skeptical of my experience, that's fine with me. Im more of a wing it kind of person, I don't spend my time or money with top of the line and chasing magic bullets, I figure if it works, and works for me, it's good enough, and my good enough might be a "waste of time" for someone else.

In all honesty the intrepid enlarger TinCan linked to might be a better alternative. it's an all in 1 kit, and the whole thing probably costs as much as a sturdy copy stand would cost. and ... it's new so you won't have to wrangle with retrofitting a LED light source and wrestling with potently old-gear seeing it's made to be an enlarger, and they have customer service if anything goes wrong. AND as a bonus you can probably remove the light source and use it to make contact prints, besides I'd feel kind of badly if you took my advice, got a heavy duty copy stand, and had trouble retrofitting the LED panel and then after it was all said and done, it didn't work for you, so ... if it was me I'd ignore my suggestion altogether and get the intrepid, unless you have your heart set on a behemoth enlarger from yesteryear. I agree with TinCan, Glennview is good stuff!

[xkaes]

My bare-bones Testrite copy stand is certainly sturdy enough to hold the weight of my Beseler MXII enlarger. It's 3 feet tall and could make 16x20 prints on the baseboard, but adapting an enlarger to the copy stand would be a chore. It can handle a 4x5 camera easily, and with a lightsource on the film plane, such as the Intrepid back, it could work.

[interneg]

Thanks for that breakdown. I have a few quick questions:

- What copy stand did you use?

- Do you recall how high you needed to mount the camera to make an 11 x 14 or 16 x 20 enlargement?

- Did you use an enlarger lens or your standard 150mm photo lens?

- What did you do to minimize shaking? Was the copy stand enough?

I have many questions about setups like these because the convenience would do me wonders, but I am skeptical about the user experience.

A Linhof copy stand would be a good bet - they were designed to handle a 4x5 Technika + the cold cathode or condenser enlarger light source/ back adapters Linhof offered. It's about 40"/ 1m tall, all told - and pretty solid, if the column/ baseboard joint is tightened up properly. Using an LED panel or similar will help overall height. At some point I'm going to get round to tapping a thread for the 3/8 mount into the bellows/ focusing stage recovered from a scrapped LPL 7451 & see if it can be made into a straightforward enlarger, with a basic LED panel or similar as a light source (despite all the biliousness about LED, they're no worse than the various cold-cathode light sources that were used over the years). It's definitely not a priority, I've got several De Vere machines for day-to-day use - which are not ideal for very temporary darkroom setups, even if very hard to knock out of alignment. A further option if you want to spend a bit (more than a bit) might be to explore the possibility of getting a Kienzle C120 made with a shorter column.

A 135mm enlarging lens would want about 900mm height for 4x (allowing for enlarging easel & some wiggle room to adjust the image a bit) and the 120WA mentioned upthread would want about 800mm (again with the allowances mentioned). By way of comparison, a 150 would want nearer to 1000mm for similar sizing of prints etc. I'd suggest going for the 120 if you think you'll be mainly doing 16x20's and the 135 if you're mainly doing 11x14's.

[Tin Can]

I tried many copy stands

Rejected almost all

All you need is a 90 degree thingamajig

Nobody has mentioned checking ANY enlarger and copy stand with sticks, an optical pattern or a Laser with mirror

Expensive RARE gear is not better

Most are not shiny either