Using mesh with BTZS tubes

[h2oman]

I see that there is a set of tubes for sale here, so I thought I'd post a few comments about them, based on my experience. Take into consideration that I have developed several orders of magnitude fewer sheets of film than many members here that develop via other methods.

I had never developed any film in my life before I started developing B&W sheet film about 13 or 14 years ago. I initially chose to use BTZS tubes because of the small amount of developer used (2 ounces per tube/sheet). I don't recall now how or why this transpired, but a generous forum member, Joel Edmondson, sent me some sheets of medical mesh for use with the tubes. (Thanks again, Joel!) Inserted into the tube prior to inserting the film, they prevent film sheets from sticking to the inside of the tube when removing after developing.

Because I don't shoot huge amounts of film, using the tubes has worked out just fine for me. I always get even development unless I do something stupid (like emulsion side out), and the mesh works as advertised. I process whenever I have six sheets ready, and I often have a mix of normal, plus, and minus development, which is easy to deal with, using the tubes. My process goes like this, after getting the film in the tubes with developer in the caps: Spin as directed, with a safelight on. When the development time is up, I transfer the opened tubes to a tray of stop bath, with the safelight still on. I then fix and wash using hangers.

Not long ago my sheets of mesh were getting pretty ratty, so I thought I'd just develop some film without it. I had a tough time getting some of the film unstuck from the walls of the tubes. I hadn't seen any recent posts by Joel, plus I didn't want to bother him. I asked a doctor friend about it, and he said it was expensive stuff. Well, I looked on Amazon and found some that was food grade, in a quantity that will last the rest of my life: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081S9BNWP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It looks exactly like what I was using before.

Hopefully all this is of some use to somebody out there!

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Thanks for the suggestion. Can you tell me how you use the mesh? Do you wrap the film in a sheet of mesh approximately the same size as the film as you curl it to slide it into the tube?

[Fermat]

Hi
The product mention has 400micron.
Is that grade mandatory or can be any other grade?
Interested in how you handle the loading in the tube.
Thanks.

Mario

[h2oman]

When ordering the mesh from Amazon, I was a bit confused as to what mesh size I needed. I took a guess, and the 400 micron looks just like the stuff Joel had sent me initially. I would guess that other mesh sizes might work just as well. One just needs something to break the cohesion between the film and the wall of the tube.

I cut the mesh into sheets whose long edges are the depth of the tube, and the width is the inner circumference of the tube (so that the mesh goes around the inside of the tube once). Then, when inserted into the tube, it pretty much covers the entire inner surface, with a split down the inside of the tube where the cut edges meet. I insert the mesh first, then put the film in afterward, with the split where the edges of the rolled film meet on the opposite side of the tube where the edges of the mesh meet.

Eventually, the edges of the mesh will become a bit frayed. I just trim them when that happens. Once or twice, when I haven't done that, a long strand of the nylon has caused a hair-like blemish on the developed negative. Otherwise, I have no problems and, like I said before, the film is much easier to get out of the tube! I'll try to get a few photos added to this post in a little, to make it clearer.

[Oren Grad]

Thanks for sharing this. Seems to me there's another potential application here that might be worth testing by ULF users. For a while Jobo offered special custom inserts for developing ULF sheets in the large Expert print drums - 3062, 3063. Some of us are using those drums without the inserts, but there are film/developer combinations that give uneven results because of the ribs in the wall of the drum. Perhaps using a mesh like this would help.

[Andrea Gazzoni]

that's the same I was doing when developing prints in tubes, any size up to 16x20. basic plastic "garden" type green mesh inside the drums keeps the paper from sticking to the drum wall. nice even results with both rc and fiber paper.

[h2oman]

Here are some pics. Tube, with cut piece of mesh. I will trim the stray strand, but that is likely not enough to be a problem.

224896

Mesh partially inserted - when pushed all the way in, the edge of the mesh will be flush with the lip of the tube.

224897

Here I am trying to show how the split in the mesh and the split in the film are opposite each other.

224898

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

... Perhaps using a mesh like this would help.

This was my thought, I have struggled to find a rotary or BTZS tube option that works for 11x14. I will try this! Thanks Greg.

jason

[AJ Edmondson]

Not to "horn-in" on Greggs' post but I have been using the mesh inserts since the arrival of the tubes on the scene. Upon receipt of the tubes I was immediately frustrated by the degree to which the film "bonded" with the tube wall and the amount of damage I was doing to the emulsion extracting the film. I was employed in engineering by a major medical device manufacturer and tried the mesh with positive results. I sent samples to several folks over the years and everyone who tried it was pleased results. After a rinse, you can air-dry just by waving the mesh around and then blotting with a paper towel!
Joel

[h2oman]

I figured you'd spot this, Joel!

I just hang the mesh sheets and negatives from a clothesline, for both to dry.

[Alan9940]

Just curious...are we talking 4x5 tubes? I've used the older gray 8x10 tubes for many years and never had any issues with the film sticking to the tube or with any damage to the film.

[h2oman]

Yes, 4x5, and I made no claim about damage to film when mesh is not used.

I suspect there are plenty out there with your experience, as I don't recall ever seeing complaints of sticking. If it's working for you as is, stick with it! (Pun NOT intended - noticed later!) Based on some of what I've seen on this forum, we all develop our own little idiosyncracies in our methods.

[bmikiten]

Interesting thread. When Phil and I were developing the original Film Tubes we tried a whole series of mesh materials including screen, a second sheet of polyester film and a few other ideas. In the end, we found that giving the tube a gentle rap on the counter in the final bath would dislodge it and make removing it pretty simple. You do have to pull one edge up especially with TMAX films due to the backing.

Do you have any issues with the anti-halation coating coming off? I suspect this material is a bit thinner and I may try it myself!

Brian

[sanking]

I never had any problem with the back of the film sticking to the tube, but in my procedure I would typically do a pre-soak in water of the film in the tubes, and when I started it I would remove the cap and lift the film just a bit as it was placed in water so that it would wet out on the back, after which I would fill it and screw the cap back on.

With some films I did have a problem with the tubes in that the pink color of the base would not be cleared and I often had to return it to a tray with a bit of sodium sulfite to clear the dye.

This reminds me that way back in the early 1970s when I first began printing I purchased a long tube with a mesh that allowed me to develop very large prints, 24" X 36" as I recall. to use one would simply roll the print up in the mesh and pour in the developer, stop and fixer, and agitate continuously for the required time.

Sandy

[h2oman]

As an aside, when first processing my own B&W film, I went to a workshop, and one of the leaders asked what film and developer I used, and how I processed my film. He then proceeded to tell me I should use film A and developer B, and that I should get a Jobo drum, because surely I must get uneven development with the BTZS tubes. Of course he had never tried them himself...