adox cms 20 ii

[jtomasella]

Anyone have any experience with this film? Steve O'Nions shot some in 35mm and the detail that film had was amazing compared to FP4+. Also what developer do you use? There aren't many listed on the Massive Dev app but two of them are readily available at B&H, D76 and Adox IV

[Michael R]

If you want any sort of useable exposure range/scale and emulsion speed you really need to use a special purpose low contrast/high speed developer. Adox/SPUR Adotech IV is the best commercially available option by a long shot. It’s expensive, but remember you’re trying to force an inherently very short scaled film into applications it was not designed for.

With Adotech you’re looking realistically at a meter setting (EI) somewhere in the 10-20 range. Closer to the low end depending on your preferences.

I wouldn’t recommend this type of film for general purpose photography - especially large format for a variety of reasons. Really, you get the best results when you use a film for its inherent characteristics instead of working against them, so I would suggest instead perhaps reserving films like CMS 20 for instances or applications when you need high contrast.

Of course you’ll get other opinions, and people have different aesthetic goals/tastes so “your mileage may vary”, as is often said.

[jtomasella]

When he shot it, Steve said it didn't handle Contrasty situations well. Basically treat it like a slide film. He also shot it at 12. I thought the results were amazing.

[Alan9940]

I've shot quite a few rolls of CMS 20 II, rated at EI 12, and developed in Adotech developer. If you use the recommended developer and nail your development time / technique (and expose at EI 12), you shouldn't get overly contrasty negs. I've followed Mr. O'Nions on YouTube for a long time, but respectfully disagree with his statement about the film revealing a lot of contrast. I've shot this film in the glaring sunlight of the desert and been very pleased with the results.

I will caution you, though, that this film DEMANDS very precise technique to get the best results, tripod mounted, mirror lock, cable release, careful focus, extra attention to DOF, bang on exposure, dead on development time/temp, etc. It's a demanding film...no question...but, one can achieve fantastic results with it! I wish it was available in 120 roll film.

[Sandro]

I also suggest to use Adotec developer.
I don’t use the tripod, but use the rule 1/2f fot the shutter time (1/250 for a 105mm lens), because with such definition camera movement and vibration is a risk.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I use it. Tried in many, many developers, including Caffenol. The best of the lot: Adotech IV. The developer recommended by Adox. They ain't kidding, either!

[AnalogAngler]

Another vote ISO 12 and the Adotech IV developer.

To expand on Alan9940's comment above - precise technique extends to the development. When I was using it I recall having tiny dark spots on the negative - light spots in the print. I had not even noticed them until viewing the enlargement. As I recall I traced this down to not having a very clean tank when devloping (communal darkroom at the time) - and finding somewhere that any impurities, especially metal ions, can cause issues with the development. I started washing/scrubbing everything before using it, made sure to use distilled water, and didn't have the problem again. (Good practice anyway...)

Also note that because of the nature of the emulsion there are some specific things for this film - like no pre-wash - that might be different from your normal routine, so make sure you read through the film and developer instructions.

[Conrad . Marvin]

Or get a bigger camera and have fun while making Great negatives to enlarge less with much more flexibility.(sorry)

[Andrew O'Neill]

I forgot to say that I shoot it at EI 12.

[paulbarden]

POTA is another alternative developer for CMS 20 II

[jtomasella]

I've shot quite a few rolls of CMS 20 II, rated at EI 12, and developed in Adotech developer. If you use the recommended developer and nail your development time / technique (and expose at EI 12), you shouldn't get overly contrasty negs. I've followed Mr. O'Nions on YouTube for a long time, but respectfully disagree with his statement about the film revealing a lot of contrast. I've shot this film in the glaring sunlight of the desert and been very pleased with the results.

I will caution you, though, that this film DEMANDS very precise technique to get the best results, tripod mounted, mirror lock, cable release, careful focus, extra attention to DOF, bang on exposure, dead on development time/temp, etc. It's a demanding film...no question...but, one can achieve fantastic results with it! I wish it was available in 120 roll film.
I thought he said it can't handle contrasty situations, hence why he shot it on a cloudy day.

[citychicago]

Has anyone had any luck processing this film in highly-diluted (1:100 or 1:200, maybe?) Rodinal? I've had luck processing Kodak Technical Pan this way. Just a thought.

[Alan9940]

I thought he said it can't handle contrasty situations, hence why he shot it on a cloudy day.

Yep, that's what he said. But, my personal experience shooting this film in some pretty harsh light and developing in Adotech leads me to disagree. YMMV, of course.

[PatrickMarq]

I have order a box of 4x5 and going out today on a bright sunny day with 35mm just to test.
Development will be done with the Adox recommended.

[jtomasella]

I have order a box of 4x5 and going out today on a bright sunny day with 35mm just to test.
Development will be done with the Adox recommended.
Post the photos please, I'd like to see them.

[Michael R]

Has anyone had any luck processing this film in highly-diluted (1:100 or 1:200, maybe?) Rodinal? I've had luck processing Kodak Technical Pan this way. Just a thought.

You’ll get high contrast and low speed. Technical Pan was quite a bit easier to adapt than films like CMS 20.

[r.e.]

B&H has this film in 4x5, saying that it's a "New Release". At US$4.36 a sheet, it's double the price of Ilford stocks. What's the argument for it?

B&H, CMS 20 ii

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[Michael R]

Nothing, really. It’s a high resolution copy/document film.


B&H has this film in 4x5, saying that it's a "New Release". At US$4.36 a sheet, it's double the price of Ilford stocks. What's the argument for it?

B&H, CMS 20 ii

225061

[jtomasella]

B&H has this film in 4x5, saying that it's a "New Release". At US$4.36 a sheet, it's double the price of Ilford stocks. What's the argument for it?

B&H, CMS 20 ii

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The detail and no grain. Steve O'nions did a video a week or so ago and showed a side by side with FP4.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I just received over Christmas a box of 13x18cm CMS20 and I'm look forward to experimenting with it.

[Michael R]

The history of trying to contort special purpose scientific and/or document/line/copy films into general purpose applications really started with people getting the misguided idea they could get a “large format look” out of small formats with Kodak Technical Pan. It was all based on the simplistic/incorrect assumption that a finer grained, higher resolution emulsion bridges that gap.

Technical Pan could sort of be muscled into reasonable tone reproduction, but the general idea eventually expanded to attempts to adapt more recalcitrant films from Agfa, Fuji, etc. Marketing helped, of course: ie pushing the notion more potential line pairs/mm is the answer.

As for LF film, realistically if you think you need finer grain than TMX, or Delta 100 (or even more conventional grained medium speed films like FP4), in my opinion there’s a perceptual problem. This goes doubly where resolution is concerned (especially since you cannot hope to exploit the potential resolution of emulsions such as CMS20 anyway). And you are sacrificing a lot - tone reproduction quality, exposure scale/range, emulsion speed.



The detail and no grain. Steve O'nions did a video a week or so ago and showed a side by side with FP4.

[r.e.]

The detail and no grain. Steve O'nions did a video a week or so ago and showed a side by side with FP4.

Thanks, I just watched Steve O'Nions's videos on CMS 20 II. He's made three over the last few months. He's mostly interested in the film's potential with full frame 35mm cameras, although he says that he'd like to try 120. He thinks that there's no 120 because of a manufacturing machinery breakdown. He shoots 4x5, but hasn't tried the 4x5 version, which may not have been available when he shot these videos. B&H says that 4x5 CMS 20 II is a "New Release". By the way, the comparison that O'Nions did was with 35mm Ilford Pan F Plus 50, not FP4+.

O'Nions's main points:


CMS 20 II is the sharpest, lowest grain 35mm film that he's ever used;
In one of his videos, O'Nions likens it to microfilm and says that it should be treated as if it's a black and white reversal film. Subjects should have a tonal range of not more than 4-5 stops; otherwise Pan F Plus 50 is a better choice;
The film should be exposed at ISO 12 or even 6, which means that the subject should be stationary;
The film is "very tricky to develop consistently without getting stains across at least a few frames of a roll"; in his second video on the film, O'Nions says that CMS 20 II is also prone to scratches.


In the video that you refer to, he used a Panasonic LUMIX G9 camera and a macro lens to digitise the negatives. I'm not sure why, because he says in another video that he gets better scans of CMS 20 II with his Minolta 5400. He also says that one should use a high-end scanner (he gives a drum scanner and Hasselblad's Flextight as examples) for optimal digitisation.

They're interesting videos, but I got a little skeptical when O'Nions said that a 35mm CMS 20 II negative could be used to make a great print the size of a wall.

I look forward to a post about large format CMS 20 II when someone has had a chance to try it. Maybe from @PatrickMarq (post #14), who says that he has 4x5 on order, or @Daniel Unkefer (post #20) who has the film in 5x7 (13cmx18cm).

[jtomasella]

The reason I was interested in the film was due to maybe having the opportunity to have one of my photos made for a 20x15 wall in a conference room. I figured any help in grain reduction and sharpness at that size would help. Currently I shoot Fomapan 100 and Delta 100 and I have no complaints with my darkroom prints.

[Michael R]

Then perhaps worth trying it. Not much to lose by experimenting. It will certainly be finer grained then any general purpose film at such huge magnifications.

Not trying to discourage anyone here. I just wanted to give some context/background regarding the use of these types of emulsions.


The reason I was interested in the film was due to maybe having the opportunity to have one of my photos made for a 20x15 wall in a conference room. I figured any help in grain reduction and sharpness at that size would help. Currently I shoot Fomapan 100 and Delta 100 and I have no complaints with my darkroom prints.

[r.e.]

The reason I was interested in the film was due to maybe having the opportunity to have one of my photos made for a 20x15 wall in a conference room. I figured any help in grain reduction and sharpness at that size would help. Currently I shoot Fomapan 100 and Delta 100 and I have no complaints with my darkroom prints.

Are you thinking of CMS 20 II in 35mm or 4x5? If you only want half a box of the latter, I'm the next state over and would take the other half, just to try it out.

[Drew Wiley]

Ditto to what Michael said

[jtomasella]

Are you thinking of CMS 20 II in 35mm or 4x5? If you only want half a box of the latter, I'm the next state over and would take the other half, just to try it out.
4x5

[r.e.]

David Hancock has made a detailed video about both 4x5 and 35mm CMS 20 II. When B&H calls the 4x5 a "New Release", maybe it means new to B&H. Hancock made his video last August. Steve O'Nions shoots 4x5, but doesn't mention 4x5 in any of the three videos that he's made about this film.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGDJyFTJft8

[Michael R]

The version II of CMS 20 dates to 2018 if I remember correctly.


David Hancock has made a detailed video about both 4x5 and 35mm CMS 20 II. When B&H calls the 4x5 a "New Release", maybe it means new to B&H. Hancock made his video last August. Steve O'Nions shoots 4x5, but doesn't mention 4x5 in any of the three videos that he's made about this film.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGDJyFTJft8

[Sal Santamaura]

David Hancock has made a detailed video about both 4x5 and 35mm CMS 20 II...That video totally suppresses all sharpness, one of the acclaimed characteristics of CMS 20 II. Also, most of the images, both 35mm and 4x5, not only exhibit far too high contrast, they have obvious development unevenness artifacts. Perhaps CMS 20 II can be controlled, but the video offers no evidence. Perhaps EI 6 might help things. :)

Note: I recently purchased the FOTOIMPEX bundle of 35mm CMS 20 II and Adotech IV, but haven't shot any yet. When I do, it'll be at EI 6.

[r.e.]

Perhaps EI 6 might help things. :)

Note: I recently purchased the FOTOIMPEX bundle of 35mm CMS 20 II and Adotech IV, but haven't shot any yet. When I do, it'll be at EI 6.

Steve Onions talks about EI6. See post #22. I haven't watched Hancock's video yet, just skipped through it to see what he covered.

[Wheathins]

I haven't tried it, but suggest rpx 25. Ive used it in 35mm and it's awesome! Very fine and usable 9 stop tonal range at 25 EI. Its also much cheaper


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[PatrickMarq]

Post the photos please, I'd like to see them.

Still waiting for the Adotech V to arrive, but I’ll post some games good and bad afterwards.

[PatrickMarq]

I look forward to a post about large format CMS 20 II when someone has had a chance to try it. Maybe from @PatrickMarq (post #14), who says that he has 4x5 on order, or @Daniel Unkefer (post #20) who has the film in 5x7 (13cmx18cm).

I’m afraid I’m still waiting for the 4x5 and the Adox V developer.

[otto.f]

B&H has this film in 4x5, saying that it's a "New Release". At US$4.36 a sheet, it's double the price of Ilford stocks. What's the argument for it?

B&H, CMS 20 ii

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Few customers that buy it

[otto.f]

Or get a bigger camera and have fun while making Great negatives to enlarge less with much more flexibility.(sorry)

This is not about sharpness and grain alone, but pretty much about tonal differentiation too. And this is a great plus for landscape and offers a nice alternative for FP4+ which I really like for landscape but has sometimes not so much differentiation in darker colors of landscape.

[revdoc]

I haven't tried it, but suggest rpx 25. Ive used it in 35mm and it's awesome! Very fine and usable 9 stop tonal range at 25 EI. Its also much cheper

It's Aviphot 80, so it also has IR capability.

Retro 80S and HR50 are the same film.

[tykos]

He thinks that there's no 120 because of a manufacturing machinery breakdown.

Adox themselves stated that a few times. They have a 120 spooling machine, but it's broken. Obviously the manufacturer is no longer in business and they have been trying to repair that machine for some years now, because they don't have that many technicians and they are busy keeping the other machines working.
They would obviously be very happy to resume 120 production, that would be a huge market.

[PatrickMarq]

My 35mm roll is developed, first impression is that I have lost detail in the schadows.
I have developed according to Massive Dev chart 11 min, going to use 9min next time.
All taken with Nikon 80S with Aperture preference.

Here is a quick iPhone image. Will scan the image tomorrow, and post them here.

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225650

[Andrew O'Neill]

POTA is another alternative developer for CMS 20 II

I agree. I was quite happy with the results... and it's MUCH cheaper to mix up than buying Adotech IV. That wee bottle doesn't last very long!