Question about 130 paper Developer

[brian steinberger]

I just purchased some 130 paper developer from photo formulary. i'm wondering what it is that so many people rave about? how does this compare to the standard: dektol? i'm printing on forte NB fibre base paper. also, what are the standard dilutions with this developer? tonight i treated it like dektol and dilted it 1:2 for two minutes, and got really nice results, but i can't see a difference between it and dektol.

[paulr]

my closest experience is with fortezo (warm tone). compared with dektol, the 130 gives richer shadows and nicer separation in the midtones overall. it will also give a diferent color, but if you're toning that's much less important. the differences aren't huge, but very noticeable.

some papers respond much less to changes in developer than others. in general, cold tone papers are less responsive than warm tone ones. so it's not beyond reason that the differences on the NB paper would be very subtle.

standard dilution for 130 is 1:1, but using it anywhere from straight to 1:2 is common. not sure about weaker dilutions. the differences between dilutions are the same as with dektol ... you'll get a more high key, compensating curve look with weaker dilutions.

[Ken Lee]

I confess to having thought that the differences were great. I was wrong. There is a slight difference in color, but that's about all I saw. This may be related to the freshness (or lack thereof) of the Glycin in the 130.

On the other hand, 130 has a very long life, even in its working dilution. If you want to leave some around in the tray for a few days, and then use it some more, it's still fine - which is a nice surprise.

But upon a second close comparison of the print quality, I was underwhelmed.

[Henry Ambrose]

Paul and Ken answered well, I second most of it.

The differences aren't apparent with cold papers as with warm paper. What I see different with Ilford papers is the total lack of "the greenness" that I get with Dektol. Ilford MG comes out totally neutral to my eye. Bergger VCCB in 130 is just magic to me with "fluffy, glowy" whites and great shadow detail. This is my preference rather than any thing scientifically better. Its my favorite combination ever.

The other thing is the keeping quality - I use 130 by storing the used working developer in bottles and adding fresh stock solution to replenish the amount carried out. I can use the same developer for many printing sessions this way. It lasts literally months when sealed against air. I like this low waste situation.

About the only downside is that 130 needs to be at least 70 degrees to work properly. Prints from cold 130 look really funky compared to prints processed at 70-74 degrees F.

But whatever others may think, if you're happy with Dektol then thats the developer for you.

[Kevin M Bourque]

What they said. I noticed a slightly cooler image, but no huge change from Dektol.

[Bill_1856]

I find that 130 actually requires a little longer than the usual recommendations to do it's job. Instead of increasing contrast, the blacks gets much blacker (DMax) and more shadow detail appears, while the highlights don't get bumped. Incidentally, I think that Dektol is a superb product, and any improvement that any developer will show is gonna be subtle -- even Amidol.

[Colin Graham]

When I firt went to 130 from dektol I was gonna keep a tray of each side by side for the first few sessions just to compare. But the first print in the 130 looked so much more glowing and cleaner than the dektol print that I didnt bother. Course this is scratch mixed 130, dont know how it compares with the formulary ready mix.

[Scott Davis]

Colin- the Formulary kit is chems in powder, separate packages, so other than potential longer-term storage before mixing, there should be no difference between your home-brew and theirs. It is not available in pre-mixed liquid form that I know of.

The reason I switched to the 130 developer from Dektol was that wierd greenish tone I was getting on my Bergger VCCB. The 130 got rid of that and gave a very nice neutral-to-warm with the Bergger. I have since started using the new Ilford Warmtone and Cooltone developers, which come in a premixed liquid. The really nice thing about the new Ilford paper developers is that you can vary the time in each developer for a given print to alter the warm/cool balance. If you have a membership on APUG, you can see examples of the difference between Ansco 130, Ilford Warmtone, Ilford Cooltone, and split Warm/Cooltone in my gallery (TheFlyingCamera).

[paulr]

"About the only downside is that 130 needs to be at least 70 degrees to work properly. Prints from cold 130 look really funky compared to prints processed at 70-74 degrees F."

i did a bunch of research on this, since i used 130 and 120 for years in a darkroom with barely medieval climate control. i found i could get completely consistent results with both developers from 56 to well over 80 degrees. the issue is calculating the temperature/time factor for each developer. i was worried that each developing agent would respond differently to changes in temperature, making consistency impossible, but this didn't seem to be the case--except that below 55 or 56 degrees hydroquinone becomes inactive, and the 130 essentially stops working at all.

matching time to temperature is especially important if you're using certain toners. development differences that are invisible in an untoned print canbecome obvious in a toned print.

you can download my chart for ansco 130 at www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/ansco130temp-time.pdf and for ansco 120 at www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/ansco120temp-time.pdf

[Ken Lee]

"But the first print in the 130 looked so much more glowing and cleaner than the dektol print that I didnt bother. Course this is scratch mixed 130, dont know how it compares with the formulary ready mix."



These things can be rather subjective. I had the same experience - perhaps because I wanted to see a vast improvement, due to enthusiasm, or because of the lighting, or because the print hadn't had a chance to dry down... who knows.



Perhaps someone with a densitometer can measure the dMax with Dektol versus Ansco 130. Perhaps someone already has, and can share it with us ?

[paulr]

i'm not convinced you'd see a dmax difference, but it seems to me the 130 gives you more texture and detail in the deep shadows ... so you can use more of that dmax. at least on the papers that respond well to it.

on fortezo i had a harder time telling the difference between amidol and 130 than between 130 and dektol. the amidol only got mixed when i had a real problem neg ... like an old one that was underexposed and needed all the separation that i could possibly squeeze out of the shadows. otherwise it made no difference.

[Henry Ambrose]

Thanks Paul, I'll have a look at your charts. I'm going from my general impression that if I start with 65 degree 130 developer I know I have to heat it up a bit to make it work right. Maybe extra time will do the same. For that matter maybe it can be hotter and not take as long as I give it now.

So what Bill wrote about time might be important. My Bergger VCCB gets three full minutes in 130 - don't take the bread out of the oven until its done! And his description of the look sounds like what I get but coming from the other direction. As this conversation progresses I'll say the prints are more "open" in addition to what I wrote before.

Brian, how long and at what temperature are you developing your prints in 130? Could that be part of the reason you're not seeing what you want? And I guess I'll ask that of others - how long are y'all soaking 'em and at what temp?

[brian steinberger]

I'm diluting the 130 1:2 and developing Forte NB fiber VC at 2 minutes. I worked today on some more and I'm getting good results, though there is a slight green-blue hue which easily neutralizes once selenium toned at 1:19 for 4 minutes at 70 degrees. Is 1:1 the normal dilution for 130? I've been using 1:2.

[Larry Gebhardt]

I think the glycin stains the paper slightly, especially if it is old. This looks nice to my eye in the highlights, and is, I think, the source of the "glow" people report.

[jnantz]

i think the best thing about ansco 130 is its keeping qualities.

i don't get in the darkroom as much as i used to, and it is nice to know that i don't have to mix new developer up because i haven't used it in a long time. i'm using some now that is about a year old and it prints as well as it did when i first mixed it.
i also like it because i've been using it to process all my film ( 8x10 - 35mm ) and paper negatives.

even though i have some xtol, and d72, that i keep just in case, the 130 is pretty much the only developer i use.

[Colin Graham]

I use it 1:1 at 70 degrees for at least three minutes as well w/ Forte FB. Two minutes never seems long enough to bring out the highlights or round out the blacks... I also like using the dry ingredients because it's easy to tweak 130 for a cooler or warmer tone depending on the image.

[Bill_1856]

Jnanian, I never thought about using it for film. Could you elaborate, please.

[paulr]

I used to use it for 3 to 4 minutes at 68 degrees on fortezo, but after some observation and testing rolled it back to 2 minutes (or, more typically, a total of 2 minutes, divided one way or another between ansco 120 and 130). what I found with the longer developing times is that prints didn't look any different coming out of the developer than with the shorter times ... but they didn't tone as well for me.

this is a phenomenon i'd never heard anyone mention. identical looking prints would react differently to both selenium and nelson gold toner. to get the slightly warm browns i wante, i needed a relatively short developing time. longer times led to very red browns.

of course, when i say 2 minutes, i'm talking about at 68 degrees ... i'd adjust the actual time according the temperature of the solutions in my drafty darkroom.

and also, fortezo reacts really fast to everything ... i have to dilute all toners beyond whats recommended, otherwise they take off too fast to be controllable.

[Merg Ross]

I have been using 130 with Ilford MG, 1:1 at 68-70 degrees F. Development time in the two to three minute range. I control color with the addition of a 10 percent bromide or benzotriazole solution. Toner, 1:64 at 75 degrees F.

[jnantz]

hi bill

for processing film i kind of stumbled upon it by mistake. i used to believe that ansco 130 was
the same thing as gaf universal developer, and processed my film accordingly. now i know it is not the same
as the gaf developer, but use it just the same ...

for sheet film, i work in trays and shuffle the film constantly.
i usually do a water bath @ 73ºish for about 2 mins, then
ansco 130 1:5 73º for about 8 mins ( i dbi so i don't know exactly what it is :) )
i water bath again for 1 min then fix.

i use it with roll film ( tmax400, fomapan, agfa400)
1:10 ( maybe a little more water - 1/11?)
water bath @ 73º, then the developer let stand for 15 mins,
3 inversions then 10 more mins dump -- i water bath again then fix.

i've been using it on sheet film (tmax 100+400, tri-x ) for about 5 years without any problems.
and i started again with the roll film about 3 months ago (120 and 35mm).

after getting nice, negatives with 130, and then going back to xtol, the xtol netagives look kind of weak .

oh, i've enlarged with cold light, condensors, and done contact prints (not to mention negative scans).

when i use it for paper negatives, i usually mix in a little spent ( brown like coca cola ) to reduce the contrast a little bit.
kind of like when you leave spent developer ( 777, dk50 or ??? ) in a deep tank to "mellow the new stuff"

good luck!
john

[Merg Ross]

I agree, Glycin based developers are good for film. The old Ansco 72 is easy to mix: Water, Sulfite, Carbonate and Glycin. I have never tried 130 for film but John may be on to something.

[Henry Ambrose]

John and I wrote back and forth about using 130 on film a few years ago.

I think I got the idea for 130 on film from looking at some formulas for film developers and noticed that it was really similar in the ingredients list to some 130 I'd just mixed. So I tried it. When I posted a question about it over on photo.net John chimed in that he'd been using 130 for film for some time.

I think I was using 130 diluted 1:10 from stock and got pretty good results with HP5. But I never really put that much effort into 130 for film, just used it a dozen times with pretty good negatives. Eventually, I went the way of Xtol and a few detours with Pyrocat HD.

[paulr]

the film developer i've used for years is a glycin, hydroquinone, phenidone formula that isn't all that different from 130 ... but i'd never thought about it that way before.

i just dug up some interesting variations on 130. might be interesting to play with ...

Ansco 130, Adams Variation

Water (52°c) 750 ml

Metol 2.2 g

Sodium Sulfite, des. 35 g

Sodium Carbonate, mono. 78 g

Glycin 11 g

Benzotriazole 1% as needed to reduce fog

Water to make 1.0 l

Like normal, but no hydroquinone. Somewhere between Asco 115 and 130.



Hydroquinone Solution (to increase contrast of Adams Variation)

Water 750 ml

Sodium Sulfite (desicated) 25 g

Hydroquinone 10 g
Water to make 1000 ml

Add as needed to increase contrast. Will cool print color slightly.



Ansco 130, Higher Contrast Variation

Water (52°c) 250 ml
Metol 2.2 g

Sodium Sulfite, des. 10 g

Hydroquinone 10 g

Sodium Carbonate, mono. 78 g

Glycin 11 g

Benzotriazole / Potassium Bromide as needed

Water to make 500 ml





Ansco 130, Split Liquid Concentrate Version

Solution A

Water 750 ml

Sodium Sulfite 45 g

Sodium Bisulfite 18 g

Hydroquinone 11 g

Phenidone .2 g

Benzotriazole 1% 10 ml

Potassium Bromide 2.8 g

Solution B

Water 750 ml

Sodium Carbonate 78 g

Mix 1:1:1 (or 1:1:2 for greater softness/more open shadows). Benzotriazole is used to help restrain Phenidone. Experiment with quantities of restrainers to control print color/fog.

[Henry Ambrose]

This has tickled my memory - now I recall that my earlier conversations with John prompted some experimental mixing with glycin film developers. I started with TD 107 from the The Film Developing Cookbook and ended up here:

"Glycin Metolrita"

Sodium Sulfite -- 8 tsp
Metol -- 1/2 tsp
Glycin -- 1/2 tsp
Sodium Metaborate -- 1/2 tsp
Salt (non-iodized) -- 4 tsp

Teaspoon measure to make 1 liter.

At first it was ugly, grainy as heck then I added salt which tamed that problem. That gave razor sharp grain and full film speed but didn't look great in 35mm, still a bit coarse. I've never tried it on sheet film. FP4 for 6 minutes is what I have written down in my notes.

Oh yeah, I am by no means any kind of chemist and make no claims of knowledge other than my experiences fooling around.

[paulr]

" ... and make no claims of knowledge other than my experiences fooling around."

i'm sure that's where most of the formulas we use come from!

by the way, how do you get a list to print like that on this message board? whenever i do a single carriage return, it gets ignored. so i have to do two, and then everything is spaced out and goes on for pages.

[jnantz]

thanks henry for the formulas!
THATS good stuff!

john

[Henry Ambrose]

Paul,

I post it as html, which is the default for this forum. But in html the keyboard return is not the same as the correct code to make what you want to happen.

Between the quotes at the end of this sentence is a line break in html --- ""

"Glycin Metolrita"

Sodium Sulfite -- 8 tsp

Metol -- 1/2 tsp

Notice two "breaks" after Glycin..... and one "break" after each ingredient.

To make the above code show up in this post correctly I clicked "Text" below this entry field where it says "Post message as:" Since I clicked "Text" the html commands were ignored.

I think if you click "Text" before you hit the "Preview Message" button your standard returns will display correctly.

[paulr]

Ahhh, thanks Henry. Another mystery of the universe revealed.

I'll try it now. Here are a couple of glycin-based film developers that i concocted, and used for all of my work for the better part of ten years. Compared with D-76 I found they gave better separation in the highlights (much less likes to block up), a tonal scale that I liked a bit more, and much more resistance to streaking and other uneven development effects. Grain is slightly lower, sharpness about the same, speed might be slightly lower (1/3 to 1/5 stop or so). I haven't tested these widely ... the first formula I only used on agfa pan 100, but it should work well on most low speed, thin emulsion traditional films. The second one was formulated specifically for tmax 100, and probably won't be great on anything else.

GPQ
(Glycin-Phenidone-Hydroquinone Developer for slow, thin-emulsion films )
Water 750 ml
Sodium Sulfite 100 g
Borax 4 g
Hydroquinone 1 g
Phenidone 0.1 g*
Glycin 3 g
Boric Acid 3 g
Potassium Bromide 0.5 g
Water to Make 1000 ml
This developer should be used with medium to short developing times (7 minutes).Large changes in activity should be induced through changes in borax level, not time changes. Can be diluted 1:1 for greater softness/more compensation (N- contractions). Results will be similar to D-76, except for the following--slightly more highlight compensation, more evenness, slightly finer grain.
GPQ–T (Liquid Concentrate) Higher accutance version of above, for T-Max 100—Dilute 1:9 ?(60 ml / 600 ml) for use.
Distilled Water (55°C) 600 mll
Sodium Sulfite 50 g
Sodium Carbonate 26 g
Diethylene Glycol 100 ml
Hydroquinone 20 g
Phenidone 2 g
Glycin 30 g
Distilled Water to Make 1000 ml
Notes: Disolve in order shown. Filter after cooling (to remove any insoluble crap. The solution is almost saturated with glycin at room temperature, so this agent precipitates out in cool weather. The amount of chemical lost to this is inconsequential. There are also, often, some insoluble impurities in the glycin that filtration removes ). Stock solution color will vary depending on nature of glycin, but if it's a dark brown, the glycin was probably too old and oxidized. Working solution will range from almost clear to the color of white wine). Store in an amber glass bottle. Shake genttly and dilute immediately before use.
Use short (5 minute) development time. Compared with D-76 will give more highlight separation, more evenness, somewhat greater shapness, and finer grain. Using 1:14 (40 ml / 600 ml) at normal time will increase compensation and give N–1 contrast compression, with no noticeable speed loss. For N–2, dilute 1:19 (30 ml / 600 ml) and add 1/2 stop exposure. For N+, either increase developing time (6.5 minutes), normal time with selenium intensification (unaltered curve shape, no speed increase) or increase concentration to 1:6 (85 ml / 600 ml) and keep normal time (brilliant results—greater highlight separation, but more risk of blocked values).
*It's not easy measuring 0.1 gram of phenidone, unless you have a very expensive scale. I don't, so I make a 1% solution, and then measure out 1 ml with a baby doser or syringe:
Water (175°F) 200 ml
Sodium Bisulfite 10 g
Diethylene Glycol 200 ml
Phenidone 5 g
Water to make 500 ml

[Dean Cookson]

Speaking of measuring small quantities of liquids...

I picked up a pack of 500, disposable, graduated, 3ml pipets (http://www.onlinesciencemall.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1787091/vpcsid/0/SFV/30852) from the folks at Online Science Mall (http://www.onlinesciencemall.com) a month or two ago for $30. Great for measuring out small quantities of solution and you don't have to worry about cross contamination because you just chuck 'em after you're done.

[Tom Hoskinson]

I've been swapping information with John for a couple of years on Ansco 130. I also use it as a paper developer and fim developer. For film, I dilute Ansco 130 a bit more than John does (typically 20:1) and use it as a reduced agitation ( Stand or semi-stand) developer. It works great with Kodak Tmax (both 100 and 400) and it also works well with Efke Pl 100 and 25.

On 8/25/04 I mixed a concentrated Ansco 130 stock solution with 200ml of TEA (Triethaolamine) as the only solvent. This concentrate now contains: 200ml of Triethaolamine, 2.2 grams Metol, 11 grams Hydroquinone, 5.5 grams Potassium Bromide and 11 grams Glycin.

I left out the water, the 50 grams of sodium sulfite, and the 78 grams of sodium carbonate from the Ansco -130 recipe. These ingredients can easily be added when the working developer is prepared.

I visually checked the concentrate last week and it is still the same color (Mesquite Honey) that it was when I mixed it on 8/25/04.

Next week I'll use this concentrate to make a liter of Ansco 130 working developer and I'll test it with both paper and film.

[paulr]

Mesquite honey!

your film developer sounds delicious.

[Tom Hoskinson]

Yes, and its vicosity is similar to that of honey - but I would not advise tasting it!

[jnantz]

tom has been a great help to my learning about ansco 130.
i love using strong dilutions ( 1:4, 1:5 1:6 ) for sheet films and never
would have thought about using it more dilute ( 1:10 ) ...
my main problem with using it stronger was with roll films, depending on
how i exposed i would get wicked contrast. but after tom pointed me in the right direction i made a few adjustments and started diluting more and just letting it sit there ( never did that before either ). it has given me really nice results, and kind of a nice stain too.

i have been experimenting a little bit more with this developer and using it as a condiment with caffenol-c ( gut rot coffee, washing soda and vitimin c ). no roll films yet, but i have processed quite a few sheets ( 27 sheets) of 4x5 this way. the coffee developer gives a beautiful grain and sharp negative but it is a little short on contrast for my taste, so i rinse after 12 minutes of straight shuffling ( in the coffee mixture ) and the film goes into "130" 1:6 for about 2-4 minutes to boost the contrast. i have gotten some really nice results.

thanks tom!

john



I've been swapping information with John for a couple of years on Ansco 130. I also use it as a paper developer and fim developer. For film, I dilute Ansco 130 a bit more than John does (typically 20:1) and use it as a reduced agitation ( Stand or semi-stand) developer. It works great with Kodak Tmax (both 100 and 400) and it also works well with Efke Pl 100 and 25.

On 8/25/04 I mixed a concentrated Ansco 130 stock solution with 200ml of TEA (Triethaolamine) as the only solvent. This concentrate now contains: 200ml of Triethaolamine, 2.2 grams Metol, 11 grams Hydroquinone, 5.5 grams Potassium Bromide and 11 grams Glycin.

I left out the water, the 50 grams of sodium sulfite, and the 78 grams of sodium carbonate from the Ansco -130 recipe. These ingredients can easily be added when the working developer is prepared.

I visually checked the concentrate last week and it is still the same color (Mesquite Honey) that it was when I mixed it on 8/25/04.

Next week I'll use this concentrate to make a liter of Ansco 130 working developer and I'll test it with both paper and film.