Developer Formulas for C-41 film?

[sanking]

If you have heard of PyrocatHD you know that I am not a novice in formulating film developers for B&W film. But I know nothing of the requirement of developer formulas for C-41 type color films. I can see that there are a number of do-it-yourself developer formulas available in kits for C-41, but I would like to understand the chemistry better in order to mix my own. Any guidelines or references to information on this subject would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any information on this subject.

Sandy

[Kiwi7475]

Sandy,

Here’s some pointers:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c41-formulas.142062/

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/recommendations-of-books-on-how-to-make-c-41-chemistry.61242/

Not totally satisfactory, but it’s a start.

[LabRat]

Camera & Darkroom magazine had some refined formulas long ago, so look for those... (I have these on-file somewhere, but not accessible now...)

Pretty simple, just have to find CD-4 (Artcraft)...

Good luck!!!

Steve K

[koraks]

I've done quite a bit of DIY C41 and the differences between the various formulas I tried (including the ones linked to earlier) were minimal. I also found it just wasn't worth the hassle; the quality of the negatives was still not quite up to the level I get with Fuji chemistry, which also is very cheap, easy to use and lasts long. For B&W I still roll my own, but for C41 it's just not worth it for me, currently.
I do keep a small stash of cd4 at hand...for emergencies or something. I sold off most of my stock though.

The morale of all this: be clear at least to yourself why you want to do this and what you want to get out of it. Other than that, go ahead and do it; it's not too difficult to run some tests with small variations in chemistry.

[Mick Fagan]

I did C41 using about three different C41 formulae, one was from a local industrial doctoral chemist, which worked the best. The other two were ones that I had picked up here and there. This was in the mid to late eighties and within reason, one got very good to excellent colour negatives for wet printing. However if one developed a Kodak control strip and had it read at my work (Industrial colour lab) the parameters weren't quite there.

Fast forward to November/December 1988 and Bertram W. Miller had an interesting article called "Managing Your Color Photochemistry" subtitled, "Keep a Balance In Your Darkroom."

This appeared in the Nov/Dec 1988 edition of Darkroom & Creative Camera Techniques, pages 23 to 25. this article did give some insight into C41 chemistry and no matter how much he tried, he just couldn't emulate Kodak C41 chemistry. To that end, he started using Part A of Kodak's C41 developer with bulk chemicals, ending up with excellent results.

I tried his technique and after running Kodak C41 control strips and having them read at my work, the results were so good, a visiting Kodak chemist who had got wind of what I was achieving in a home darkroom, one day asked how I was doing this.

I'm not suggesting you copy Bertram's method, but his article is very interesting.

[Ironage]

Here is a good reference I use: https://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/c41_ra4_chemicals.htm. I have been experimenting with these for about a year. I use the divided bleach and fix formula for both film and paper. So far so good, but you cannot store this developer and get good results. I mix up a fresh batch right before use.

[sanking]

Thanks to all who replied with useful information.

I have quite a bit of old color film, some of it frozen and most likely good, but some stored without freezing but in favorable conditions. Color balance is not vintage to my interests as my plan would be to scan the film and then color correct in PS so would be able to correct for this. What is important is a simple formula, with as few solutions as possible, and that I could use in range of temperatures.

In looking at some of the available commercial formulas I see that one or two have only two solutions and appear to be useful in a range of temperatures and they might serve my needs so I will probably try one of these before attempting to mix my own.

Thanks again, and any additional comments would be appreciated.

Sandy

[rob4x5]

Sanking, if you decide to mix your own, here is a simple developer formula to try:

distilled water @ 125F 800 ml
potassium carbonate 35 g
sodium sulfite 4 g
potassium bromide 1.5 g
CD-4 5g
add distilled water to make 1 liter

I found it gives parallel characteristic curves, but it must be used at 100F and pH adjusted to 10.0 to 10.2 to achieve these results, similar to commercial developers. It has no usual hydroxylamine sulfate for the preservative, so shelf life will be shorter than usual but I have found there is enough sulfite in it to last many weeks.

If you use any developer at temperatures other than 100F, you can expect to get some degree of crossover (non-parallel characteristic curves), so whatever you use, run some tests to see if the results are acceptable to you before using on anything important. Based on your stated color needs, I think my developer would be completely adequate.

[sanking]

Sanking, if you decide to mix your own, here is a simple developer formula to try:

distilled water @ 125F 800 ml
potassium carbonate 35 g
sodium sulfite 4 g
potassium bromide 1.5 g
CD-4 5g
add distilled water to make 1 liter

I found it gives parallel characteristic curves, but it must be used at 100F and pH adjusted to 10.0 to 10.2 to achieve these results, similar to commercial developers. It has no usual hydroxylamine sulfate for the preservative, so shelf life will be shorter than usual but I have found there is enough sulfite in it to last many weeks.

If you use any developer at temperatures other than 100F, you can expect to get some degree of crossover (non-parallel characteristic curves), so whatever you use, run some tests to see if the results are acceptable to you before using on anything important. Based on your stated color needs, I think my developer would be completely adequate.

Hi Rob,

Well, that is certainly a simple formula that should be easy to mix. I am definitely able to maintain temperature of 100F and adjust pH to 10.0 to 10.2.

But what is CD-4?

Sandy

[Kiwi7475]

Hi Rob,

Well, that is certainly a simple formula that should be easy to mix. I am definitely able to maintain temperature of 100F and adjust pH to 10.0 to 10.2.

But what is CD-4?

Sandy

That’s 4-(N-Ethyl-N-2-hydroxyethyl)-2-methylphenylenediamine sulfate

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Developing_Agent_4

available here: https://www.artcraftchemicals.com/product/cd-4-part-1095/

Also overseas:

https://www.macodirect.de/en/chemistry/color-chemistry/c-41/4344/compard-digibase-c-41-c-colour-developer-part-c-100ml?c=649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/COLOR-DEVELOPING-AGENT-CD4-CAS-25646-77-9/192182397167?hash=item2cbef6a8ef:g:-YgAAOSwdjNZEcvX

[koraks]

4g/l of sulfite doesn't sound right for c41. If the hydroxylamine is a problem, I'd suggest using a more same amount of sulfite (ca 1.0 ~ 1.5g) and just leave out the hydroxylamine sulfate. Mix immediately prior to use. Adding more sulfite is not a good idea as it inhibits dye formation and hence influences color balance. What's more, this will likely happen differently in higher and lower layers of the emulsion, so color balance will become a veritable mess. You can correct anything in PS of course, but why not start with something decent. Hydroxylamine sulfate is easier to get than CD4 anyway so I don't really get the idea behind leaving it out.

In the DIY formulas I did not see much difference between the bonavolta recipe and the more fancy recipes that include potassium iodide.

[rob4x5]

Koraks, I have used this formula with a variety of films with good results as indicated earlier. The 4g/l works well. The OP wants a simple formula and this is as simple as it gets for C-41, but can use other formulas with HAS if desired.

[koraks]

Like I said, anything can be corrected in PS. I don't doubt your results were satisfactory to you.

I'm also aware of what Sandy is looking for. Hence my earlier comments. The Bonavolta recipe is as simple as it gets without cutting unnecessary corners.

Even simpler is just to get some ready-made chemistry from one of the big retailers. If the need to process at various temperatures is there, I don't doubt that any of the existing products on the market will perform similarly, even if they are not specified for lower temperature processing. For instance Kodak will probably *never* indicate their C41 developer can be used at lower temperatures since they seem to adhere quite religiously to the C41 standard (which, in the end was theirs to begin with, of course). Personally I don't see much benefit in wanting to process C41 at lower temps due to the relative ease with which the solutions can be held at 100F/37.8C and the relatively short processing time this is associated with. Why bother trying to do it at 20 degrees which takes a loooong time and gives mediocre/bad results.

[Vaidotas]

Grant Haist "Modern photographic processing", vol.2
This book in two volumes is present at the moment on big auction site, there is actually a pile of them.

[rob4x5]

Buying pre-packaged chemistry is getting more expensive and harder to find available, so if one is really into color processing it is a good idea to learn how to mix from formulas. It also allows one to experiment. The chemicals are powders and last for years. I can mix my own developers for both C-41 and RA-4 as well as b&w. At present I still buy pre-packaged bleach-fix for RA-4.

As mentioned earlier, low temperature processing can induce crossover as the film/process is designed to give parallel curves only at 100F. Severe crossover is not correctable by simple color balancing, but must be corrected in PS by adjusting the curves which may take some time and skill, so one might as well do the process at the proper temperature to begin with.

I do not scan my negatives but only print optically, and my developer formula gives good gray scales and overall color. I do have more complicated formulas but then I have to stock more chemicals, and don't see that it is justified.

[sanking]

Thanks for the great information about simple formulas. I definitely plan to eventually mix my own but for the time being have decided to experiment for now with a two-solution kit sold by CineStill since I have no previous experience with developing C-41 films and though this might be good introduction to the subject. But eventually I want to be able to mix my own so all of the comments pro and con are very useful.

I purchased the two volume set from Grant Haist himself back in the early 2000s. He died in 2016 so the volumes available now could be from his estate, he mentioned to me that he had quite a number from the publisher. The book is an incredible resource and I have made a lot of use of it over the years in my work with B&W film developers.

Sandy

[Vaidotas]

I purchased the two volume set from Grant Haist himself back in the early 2000s. He died in 2016 so the volumes available now could be from his estate, he mentioned to me that he had quite a number from the publisher. The book is an incredible resource and I have made a lot of use of it over the years in my work with B&W film developers.

Sandy

The seller made an announcement on social media platform, indeed these second edition books are from the author estate.

[Tomsmac]

When reading “ Camera & Darkroom magazine” I became interested so I did a search. It appears that it not only be out of business but the price for used magazines is crazy.

[mohmadkhatab]

When reading “ Camera & Darkroom magazine” I became interested so I did a search. It appears that it not only be out of business but the price for used magazines is crazy.

Hello, honorable men.
Allow me to participate in this discussion.
The formula suggested by the respected colleague, indeed, is a good and simple formula, but it really needs (HAS)
In fact, I have never tried any formula without (HAS), and I don't know how to dispense with that element.
- I don't want to try it on any grounds, I managed to get an excellent alternative to that ingredient and at the same time it's very cheap (Hydroxylamine HCl).
- If you are only preparing the developer and buying Bleach, what are you doing here? Practically, you did not save money, unless you bought a large gallon for a huge amount to live with you for several years.
- I like to prepare copper bleach, which is characterized by its longevity and also the advantage of being the cheapest bleach on the planet.
- But it just needs some effort and extra time during development.
You will need a pre-bleach solution and a disinfecting solution (after bleaching).
Pre-bleaching solution + disinfection solution cost no more than a few cents. They can work to produce 24 rolls.
Copper bleaching solution, its cost will also not exceed a few cents and maybe a dollar, and it can produce 8 rolls and can live for years on the shelf without expiring.

The attached pictures, were produced using this strange process.

[Tomsmac]

It’s a damn shame what happening with these prices. I just looked up Grant Haist and volume one is going for $160

[wclark5179]

John Dersham is on Facebook and a former Kodak sales rep.

Maybe worth a try and ask him.

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Hello Sandy,

Not exactly what you asked for, but something that could be useful to you if you want to explore developing expired C41 film in Pyrocat-HD. Yes, it gives very decent results. :)

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/what-is-the-last-thing-you-developed-or-printed.117199/page-49#post-2138021