Who can give me 101 on printing BW with De Vere 504 Color MK5 Head?

[Fatih]

Hi all,

So, finally I’ve upgraded myself from a toilet darkroom to an actual basement darkroom and first I’ve ordered a proper enlarger as using Intrepid enlarger kit is very fiddly.

As I’m planning to start printing colour our as well, I went for dichrom Mk2 head however that has created a problem now. I do not know how to use color head for split grade BW printing. I’m reading Ilford Multigrade paper documents but they give Durst or Kodak numbers and I believe De Vere is under Kodak. Then it gives some yellow and magenta numbers which I understand that I need adjust on the enlarger head. How about cyan channel, does that not effect the grade at all? Also if this proves to be complicated for me, I might go for under lens filter system which I’m used to now but then the question is, can I get a pure white light from a color enlarger to use under lens filters?

PS enlarger and the sink have not been delivered so I’m trying to learn everything until then.

Sorry for this basic questions.
Many thanks,
Fatih

[cowanw]

Everything you need to know for single colour grade where times may change with grades or dual colour grades where times may stay the same with grades.
Leave the cyan alone.
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Contrast-control-for-Ilford-Multigrade.pdf

[cowanw]

It doesn't really matter about your light or about a particular grade. You like the image-good; you don't - then bump up or down the contrast and do it again.

[Fatih]

Everything you need to know for single colour grade where times may change with grades or dual colour grades where times may stay the same with grades.
Leave the cyan alone.
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Contrast-control-for-Ilford-Multigrade.pdf

Ok, so I’ve been reading this document few times already. When you say leave the cyan alone, where should I leave it, at 0 or at 150, or it doesn’t matter.

How about if I want to get pure light from the head, do I dial 0 at each of the channels?

[ic-racer]

Cyan filter cuts out red light. For practical purposes only color paper would be affected.
You can keep cyan at zero to make the baseboard image brighter to your eyeballs.

[ic-racer]

You should make a print with maximum magenta and zero yellow and compare to Ilford #5. If they are similar you should be able to use your color head for just about all your BW printing.

[cowanw]

There should be a switch to go between coloured light and white light, Mine is in the upper right corner of the front face.
Set the cyan at 0 so you can see better while it is enlarging. Cyan is minus red and neither has an effect on enlarging paper, so leaving it on lets you see better.

[Drew Wiley]

With VC papers and colorheads, there is absolutely no need to even worry about grade this or grade that. It's irrelevant. ALL you need to know if that the more you dial up Magenta, the more the contrast increases, the more you dial up Yellow the less contrast you get. Don't use both at the same time, and leave Cyan on zero. Therefore if you want to split print, dial up M as high as it goes for the greatest black punch, and maximum yellow for filling in the highlights.

If that still doesn't give you the full range you want, the just leave all your settings at zero, and use a 47 blue glass filter over the enlarging lens for higher contrast, and a 58 green filter for your lower contrast.

But it always better to do a test strip first with all the colorhead settings on zero just to establish a baseline. Rarely do I find a need for pure split printing. Far more often, the basic contrast level can be established with some modest colorhead setting; and if extra punch is needed at other extreme, or just for sake of burning-in, then either M or Y can be ratcheted up (but never both). I personally have the luxury of true RGB colorheads, but most don't. But the same result can be achieved with ordinary CMY colorheads.

[brass.duet]

....ALL you need to know if that the more you dial up Magenta, the more the contrast increases, the more you dial up Yellow the less contrast you get. Don't use both at the same time, and leave Cyan on zero. There is you want to split print, dial up M as high as it goes for the greatest black punch, and maximum yellow for filling in the highlights.



Agree. You can think of Cyan as a neutral density tool.

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[Fatih]

Thank you very much all, I knew I can get the best answers in here. Now I’ve learned I can get pure white if I want and cyan is neutral. I know I’ve bought an enlarger way above my knowledge but I have time to learn :)

So I’ll do a test print with max magenta vs Ilford 5 filter with white light to compare.

The reason I was so focused on grade numbers is I usually do a test print at 2 and at 4 and depending then choose appropriate timings, that’s the main reason actually. With color head maybe I’ll do a bit more test strips until I’m comfortable with the numbers and the effect of them.

So if you do split printing and first you start with magenta, once you establish that for the blacks. Would you take it back to 0 and start to soaking up the yellow for highlights or would you keep magenta where it is? The latter one might keep effecting the blacks.

[cowanw]

Agree. You can think of Cyan as a neutral density tool.

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Maybe with colour printing but not with Black and White. Neutral density implies that you " soak up equal amounts of three colours in order to use a longer time or a more open fstop. but cyan in a subtractive enlarger is only a minus red filter and, since now matter how much or how little red the paper is exposed to ( filter impurity excepted) there is no exposure effect, Turning up the cyan will only make it harder to see the projected image.

[cowanw]

Thank you very much all, I knew I can get the best answers in here. Now I’ve learned I can get pure white if I want and cyan is neutral. I know I’ve bought an enlarger way above my knowledge but I have time to learn :)

So I’ll do a test print with max magenta vs Ilford 5 filter with white light to compare.

The reason I was so focused on grade numbers is I usually do a test print at 2 and at 4 and depending then choose appropriate timings, that’s the main reason actually. With color head maybe I’ll do a bit more test strips until I’m comfortable with the numbers and the effect of them.

So if you do split printing and first you start with magenta, once you establish that for the blacks. Would you take it back to 0 and start to soaking up the yellow for highlights or would you keep magenta where it is? The latter one might keep effecting the blacks.

It might be worth it for you to start to think about what these filters do. Magenta is a minus green in a subtractive enlarger (like yours) so if you block all the green with a magenta filter and then add minus blue ( ie the yellow filter ) you take away the blue light. Starting with white light, you have taken away the green and the blue. What is left? ---RED.

So to answer your question yes you turn the magenta back to zero.
Did you read the part of the Ilford page that describes using a bit of both filters to keep time constant across various grades?

[cowanw]

Any print you make will require a certain number of green light units and a certain number of blue light units. How you deliver these (by time of fstop) separate or together is only a matter of process, which can be called by names such as split printing single filter printing or dual filter printing.

[Phil Hudson]

When I had a Devere Mk 5 head I often found that some form of neutral density was required because the twin lamp 500w source gave inconveniently short times on 8x10 and 12x16 prints with certain papers.

[brass.duet]

Maybe with colour printing but not with Black and White. Neutral density implies that you " soak up equal amounts of three colours in order to use a longer time or a more open fstop. but cyan in a subtractive enlarger is only a minus red filter and, since now matter how much or how little red the paper is exposed to ( filter impurity excepted) there is no exposure effect, Turning up the cyan will only make it harder to see the projected image.Thank you. I never had to monkey around with color enlargers to make b&w prints. I worked in professional labs, mostly with reversal film. I appreciate the reference materials you linked!
Julie

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[bob carnie]

Thank you very much all, I knew I can get the best answers in here. Now I’ve learned I can get pure white if I want and cyan is neutral. I know I’ve bought an enlarger way above my knowledge but I have time to learn :)

So I’ll do a test print with max magenta vs Ilford 5 filter with white light to compare.

The reason I was so focused on grade numbers is I usually do a test print at 2 and at 4 and depending then choose appropriate timings, that’s the main reason actually. With color head maybe I’ll do a bit more test strips until I’m comfortable with the numbers and the effect of them.

So if you do split printing and first you start with magenta, once you establish that for the blacks. Would you take it back to 0 and start to soaking up the yellow for highlights or would you keep magenta where it is? The latter one might keep effecting the blacks.



I do a lot of silver printing using a colour head, lots of good information above, the cyan filter can be used but for very specific reasons that I have never found necessary when doing black and white printing. I would not try split grade printing until
you get a good handle on how the filters work.

As some mention the white light feature is interesting as you can purchase a series of Ilford contrast filters and using a negative. you are very familiar with make a series of prints where you balance a density in the scene , I would start with a grade 2 filter in the path of the light
and make a print, once you feel it is correct, then you can start putting the different filters in the light path and match the same density . This will give you a starting point on what the different grades look like

Once you have the five grades matched in density by using the above filters and white light.I would start by matching these prints using the magenta and or the yellow filters as they are intended to be used, so no white light feature.

In my darkroom the higher the magenta the more contrast, when I zero the magenta and start adding yellow only the print will soften... In my darkroom I kind of figure this relationship and this is ball park... Grade 2 is about 25 magenta , Grade 3 is about 70 magenta , Grade 4 is about 110 magenta, Grade 5 is full magenta (200) - going the other way Grade 1 is about 25 yellow and Grade 0 is about 70.
But by doing the test by matching the densities of filters using your mag/ yellow to the prints you made using the Ilford filters with white light. you will know a ball park starting point to understanding the grades.

I would work this way for awhile - ditch the Ilford filters and use graded light, and you will then start understanding that different lighting scenes, and different process adjustments will affect where your current negative needs to start out.
At about this time I would then have the confidence to start split filter printing which is what I do and many here do , but until you have a handle of your new enlarger I think you will drive yourself crazy.

hope this makes sense.

Bob

[bob carnie]

When I had a Devere Mk 5 head I often found that some form of neutral density was required because the twin lamp 500w source gave inconveniently short times on 8x10 and 12x16 prints with certain papers.

For what its worth equal amounts of 10 cyan 10 magenta and 10 yellow creates 1/3 stop of nuetral density and I agree with Phil there are times when making a small print with these powerful enlargers one has to do this.

[Drew Wiley]

Different cc's on different kinds colorheads can equate to different amounts of actual density, Bob. There are even conversion charts between systems. The distinction is even more apparent between my conventional subtractive CMY Durst head and additive RGB ones with more precise feedback circuitry. Dichroic filters might not fade, but they do spall over time and shift in that manner, or even with shift in balancd with excessive heat from long exposures. And yes, I too sometimes throw in a some cyan for sake of neutral density, to slow down exposure times. So diagnostically, for anything critical I use an actual easel densitometer which reads out in precise actual log density units. But most of the time with VC paper, a simple test strip tells me everything I need to know right away.

Good to hear from you. I thought you might be over there on the Detroit Bridge blocking traffic in your semi truck.