Close-Up lenses for LF photography, advice needed

[Greg]

Have read a couple of posts in this FORUM of members using close-up lenses for LF Photography. I am looking for advice on acquiring some of these to try out. My take so far on what to look for is:

1. Achromatic close-up lenses

2. Leica, Canon, Nikon, or Pentax brand close-up lenses.

3. Does the diameter of the close-up lens matter?

I have a NOS Ilex #5 and a Copal #3 shutter, so any filter thread sizes under about 63mm in diameter I could easily use...

Would the iris in the shutter be of use to me?

What sizes should I be looking for for 8x10 and 11x14 formats?

thanks in advance.

[xkaes]

Hello,
I'm assuming you are talking about "supplementary close-up lenses" as opposed to "large format lenses designed for close-up work" -- a lens that screws onto a lens, as opposed to an entire lens.

There are a few ways that large format photographers get closer:

#1 Extend the bellows -- but if you've extended it as far as you can, you could use a longer bellow (if that is an option for your camera), or use an extension cone with the lens (but that only gives you 2-4 extra inches), or use a shorter focal length lens (if you have one).

#2 Buy a shorter focal length lens -- preferably one designed for close-up work (not necessarily inexpensive)

#3 Use a "supplementary close-up lens" to screw onto your existing lens(es) -- this is easy, and can be inexpensive. But not all close-up lenses are created equal. Most are single-element, meniscus lenses that are not coated. They are referred to as "chromatic" (having color) optics with color-fringing -- most noticeably away from the center of the scene and especially on the edges of objects or shadows. Minolta, like some other manufacturers, made higher quality, double-element close-up lenses that are fully coated. These are referred to as Achromatic lenses -- "A" (away from) "chromatic" (having color). Although more expensive, this helps deal with some of the chromatic aberration that occurs, and the coating helps reduce flare. And then there are a few Apochromatic -- "Apo" (not having) -- close-up lenses that have even better correction for chromatic aberration, but these are even MORE expensive. But in any case, it is best to stop-down as much as possible to obtain the greatest edge-to-edge sharpness (assuming that is what you want!). Stopping down is more important the higher the diopter of the close-up lens. And using a lens shade will help as well.

Here is a website that can sort out some of your options:

http://fuzzcraft.com/achromats.html

And in any event, always use a lens shade, but the lens shade that you normally use with the lens might cause some vignetting due to the shortening of the focal length (yes, a "supplementary close-up lens" shortens the focal length of the lens it's attached to -- that's how you are able to focus closer!)

For more information, check out:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm

[Oslolens]

For my Ilex #5 I got two adapter rings from SKGRIMES.COM, 72mm on the back and 77mm on the front. There is no reason not to get two of the smaller. There is not room for 77mm on the back.
The Copal 3 and 3S looks identical but has 58 and 56mm threads, make sure you know what you got.

The list in the link above is useful.

For single use I would recommend Canon 500D, Nikon 1.5 and 3, in 62mm preferably.

Diameter: bigger lens means larger aperture, if less soft is wanted use the iris.

Pentax S82 is of lower quality, but not as low as Marumi. Leica is higher quality than N & C.
I have not tested the rest.

You don't have to use identical close-up lenses when making an aplanat, but you must take in to account the focal length will be ca half of the sum.

[mdarnton]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/michaeldarnton/26769483286/in/dateposted-public/

I bought a 250SF Fujinon, didn't like it at all, so I gutted it and use a two-element achromatic on the back filter threads, see above.

Single element was not really good, for me, but that experiment was cheap.

[xkaes]

Nice effect!!

I'm still unclear if the OP is about close-up photography or soft-focus photography (using supplementary lenses INSTEAD of regular lens).

And doing both is possible too!!!!

[Mark Sawyer]

You don't have to use identical close-up lenses when making an aplanat, but you must take in to account the focal length will be ca half of the sum.

Actually, 1/4 of the sum.

For 8x10 and 11x14, I'd suggest a +3 diopter (333mm) and a +2 diopter (500mm). Whole sets including those and a +1 (1000mm) and +10 (100mm) are cheap. If you want to play with combining them, buy two sets.

Achromatic doublets would be a bit of a waste for monochrome, as the little bit of achromatic fuzz is lost in the very similar looking fuzz from spherical aberration anyways

[Bernice Loui]

Given sheet film size of 8x10 and 11x14, how close up is "close up" or what might be the reproduction ratios involved and what objects are to be imaged and how?

Plane of focus will be an issue for near or larger than life size (1:1) for sheet film formats of this size. Add to this, difficulties of lighting and camera to subject set up.


Bernice

[Greg]

Nice effect!!

I'm still unclear if the OP is about close-up photography or soft-focus photography (using supplementary lenses INSTEAD of regular lens).

And doing both is possible too!!!!

OP here... Sorry if I wasn't 100% clear in my OP. I was interested in using close up lenses for soft-focus photography. I presently have a 300mm H=6.8 Rodenstock Imagon with no discs/"strainers"/insertable grids in a No. 3 Copal shutter. The image it projects is good but find that it stays unused in the cabinet. Was looking to replace its rear elements with 58mm (I believe to be the rear thread of the shutter) close-up lenses and see what I could get. I was looking for advice on where to start.

[Oslolens]

Actually, 1/4 of the sum.

For 8x10 and 11x14, I'd suggest a +3 diopter (333mm) and a +2 diopter (500mm). Whole sets including those and a +1 (1000mm) and +10 (100mm) are cheap. If you want to play with combining them, buy two sets.

Achromatic doublets would be a bit of a waste for monochrome, as the little bit of achromatic fuzz is lost in the very similar looking fuzz from spherical aberration anywaysThanks! Yes, ca half of the average, not half the sum.

I see clearly the difference in sharpness difference between Pentax and Leica achromats, so any cheap +1/+2/+3/+4 sets may not give the sharpest look.
Buy the cheap sets anyway and buy two of them.
You will also find achromatic lenses or lookalike as the back cell of some lenses, like my 12 inch Wollensak f4,5 is ca 200mm f3.

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[Oslolens]

OP here... Sorry if I wasn't 100% clear in my OP. I was interested in using close up lenses for soft-focus photography. I presently have a 300mm H=6.8 Rodenstock Imagon with no discs/"strainers"/insertable grids in a No. 3 Copal shutter. The image it projects is good but find that it stays unused in the cabinet. Was looking to replace its rear elements with 58mm (I believe to be the rear thread of the shutter) close-up lenses and see what I could get. I was looking for advice on where to start.It's my understanding the Imagon is just that, a close-up diopter, please correct me if I am wrong.

The problem with a new 58mm close-up filter is the threads start so far in a standard filter will not fit, confirmed now on a 210mm Macro-Sironar-N shutter. Same with step down filter rings.

So one or two of these 58mm copal rings are needed: https://rafcamera.com/extender-m58x0-75-10mm

[Bob Salomon]

OP here... Sorry if I wasn't 100% clear in my OP. I was interested in using close up lenses for soft-focus photography. I presently have a 300mm H=6.8 Rodenstock Imagon with no discs/"strainers"/insertable grids in a No. 3 Copal shutter. The image it projects is good but find that it stays unused in the cabinet. Was looking to replace its rear elements with 58mm (I believe to be the rear thread of the shutter) close-up lenses and see what I could get. I was looking for advice on where to start.

The Imagon only has a lens cell behind the shutter. What do you plan on replacing?

[Mark Sawyer]

It's my understanding the Imagon is just that, a close-up diopter, please correct me if I am wrong.


I suppose you could use the Imagon as a close-up diopter, just as you could use any positive single-celled lens (front of a Petzval, rear of a Tessar or Verito, half a Rapid Rectilinear...) as a close-up diopter, though the results likely wouldn't be optimum.

Pictorialist photographer Heinrich Kuehn/Kühn, along with the designers at Rodenstock, formulated the Imagon in the 1920's specifically because he wasn't satisfied with other soft-focus lenses of the time, many of which were achromatic doublets. Based on that, I think the Imagon was more than just another close-up diopter.

[Oslolens]

The Imagon only has a lens cell behind the shutter. What do you plan on replacing?Do you know if there is threads on the front of the shutter?

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[Greg]

Do you know if there is threads on the front of the shutter?

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There is a threaded ring with "300mm H=6.8 Rodenstock Imagon" and a serial number marked on it.

[Bob Salomon]

There is a threaded ring with "300mm H=6.8 Rodenstock Imagon" and a serial number marked on it.

That ring unscrews and then you will have the shutter’s front threads.

[xkaes]

OP here... Sorry if I wasn't 100% clear in my OP. I was interested in using close up lenses for soft-focus photography. I presently have a 300mm H=6.8 Rodenstock Imagon with no discs/"strainers"/insertable grids in a No. 3 Copal shutter. The image it projects is good but find that it stays unused in the cabinet. Was looking to replace its rear elements with 58mm (I believe to be the rear thread of the shutter) close-up lenses and see what I could get. I was looking for advice on where to start.

Thanks for the clarification. As mentioned, the Imagon lenses -- they made a 200mm, 250mm and 300mm -- were two element lenses with the glass behind the iris. Basically a supplementary close-up lens with a shutter and diaphragm. You can do the same thing with any shutter and supplementary close-up lens -- and the glass can be on the front or the rear of the shutter. And, if you want, you can place one supplementary close-up lens on the front of the shutter and another supplementary close-up lens on the rear -- the two together basically shorten the focal length of the other -- and shrink the image circle at the same time.

One thing, that has been mentioned, is the need for an adapter to connect the supplementary close-up lens(es) to the shutter -- the adapter has to have a longer than normal thread to reach into most shutters. The thread on the supplementary close-up lens by itself won't reach -- and it will undoubtedly be the wrong diameter anyway.

The other point to mention is that with two supplementary close-up lenses used in combination, the results change with the distance between the two supplementary close-up lenses. Perhaps someone has a formula to estimate the change -- or can provide an explanation. You can use Gullstrand's equation as a starting point.

[Greg]

You will also find achromatic lenses or lookalike as the back cell of some lenses, like my 12 inch Wollensak f4,5 is ca 200mm f3.

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Thanks,
My 12" f/4.5 Velostigmat was my first lens for my 8x10. Looking forward to try the back cell on my whole plate this weekend
Greg