Tominon Lens Specification

[Garen]

Looking for Tominon factory spec sheet. These were used on polaroid MP-3 and MP-4 for copy and closeup work. Any info or URL pointers will be appreciated.

If a pdf is available, please email me through LFPF or email direct to garen@silvercavalier.com

Thanks.

[xkaes]

If it (they) is found, I'd like to see it, and I'm sure others here would as well.

You might also try the YASHICA Forum at:

https://yashica.boards.net (https://yashica.boards.net)

Although the focus is on Yashica, Tomioka made all of Yashica's lenses, so there are people there knowledgeable about Tominon lenses.

You could also try

http://photocornucopia.com/ (http://photocornucopia.com/)

The owner has experience with Tominon lenses, and might have spec sheets.

I have the Tominon 135mm and 75mm lenses and think they are great. Both have 40mm (#1) rear threads.

P.S. I hope this note is not considered "gratuitous advertising" for these websites.

[mhayashi]

Garen, here it is.
https://www.digicamclub.de/showthread.php?t=19726

[xkaes]

That's helpful. Thanks. However, it does not list all of the Tominon lenses. Two that I know of that are not included are the 35mm and 17mm.

Here is a more complete list of copy & enlarging lenses from Tominon from:

http://blog.16-9.net/delta-enlarger-lens-archive (http://blog.16-9.net/delta-enlarger-lens-archive)

Keep in mind that many of these lenses were also sold under other name brands!

These are the ones that were sold with the TOMINON label -- that they know of -- note that they do not list the 17mm!

Osawa Tominon 40 3.5 16.0 Straight 6 6 / 4 AKA Yashica / Hoya / Bogen / DO Industries enlarger lens. M39 1979-1990
Osawa Tominon 50 2.8 16.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 AKA Yashica / Hoya / Bogen / Beseler ColorPro / Omicron EL enlarger lens. 100 M39 40.5x0.5mm 43 23 1979-1990
Osawa Tominon 60 4.0 22.0 Straight 8 8 / 4 AKA Hoya Super EL enlarger lens. M39 1979-1990
Osawa Tominon 75 4.5 22.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 AKA Yashica / Hoya / Beseler ColorPro / Omicron EL enlarger lens. 88.0% 85.5% 8.0 7.0 No onion. Mild bubble. Good but some edgy doubling High 7.5 Mild 8.0 93 M39 40.5x0.5mm
Osawa Tominon 90 5.6 32.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 AKA Yashica / Hoya / Beseler ColorPro / Omicron EL enlarger lens. M39 1979-1990
Osawa Tominon 105 5.6 32.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 AKA Yashica / Hoya / Beseler ColorPro / Omicron EL enlarger lens. M39 1979-1990
Osawa Tominon 135 5.6 45.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 AKA Yashica / Hoya / Beseler ColorPro / Omicron EL enlarger lens. M39 1979-1990
Tomioka Tominon 35 4.5 Copy lens by Tomioka for Polaroid MP4/5.
Tomioka Tominon 48 4.0 4.0 Fixed 6 / 4 Copal E36C M39 M37.5 x 0.5
Tomioka Tominon 50 4.5 Copy lens by Tomioka for Polaroid MP4/5.
Tomioka Tominon 75 4.5 Copy lens by Tomioka for Polaroid MP4/5.
Tomioka Tominon 76 4.0 4.0 Fixed 6 / 4 Copal E36C M39 M37.5 x 0.5
Tomioka Tominon 80 4.0 4.0 Fixed 6 / 4 Copal E36C M39 M37.5 x 0.5
Tomioka Tominon 105 4.5 Copy lens by Tomioka for Polaroid MP4/5.
Tomioka Tominon 135 4.5 Copy lens by Tomioka for Polaroid MP4/5.
Tomioka Tominon MC 48 4.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 Japanese multicoated enlarger lens. M39 M37.5 x 0.5
Tomioka Tominon MC 51 4.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 Japanese multicoated enlarger lens. M39 M37.5 x 0.5
Tomioka Tominon MC 58 4.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 Japanese multicoated enlarger lens. M39 M37.5 x 0.5
Tomioka Tominon MC 68 4.0 8.0 Straight 8 6 / 4 Japanese multicoated enlarger lens.

[Dan Fromm]

MP-4 Tominon lens 135 mm 4 elements 3 groups Tessar type
105 mm, the same
75 mm, 4/3 reverse Tessar type
50 mm, "6 group symmetric triplet type" I've never seen a cross-section or found a clearer explanation
35 mm, 4/3 reverse Tessar type
17 mm, 6/4 "macro lens"

OP, these are all for the MP-4. Most of the lenses for the MP-3 are Rodenstock Ysarons, also the 35/4 Eurygon.

[ridax]

What I found out testing the Polaroid Tominons personally is that the 50mm f/4.5 was actually a process lens optimized for 1:1 (it covers 6x9cm at 1:1). Though Polaroid recommended it for quite different magnification ratios at which the 50mm Tominon was not too good. And Polaroid recommended another Tominon for 1:1 - which was not optimized for 1:1 at all....

That said, I find my 60mm f/5.6 Schneider Componon sharper then the 50mm f/4.5 Tominon even at 1:1, both for 24x36mm and 6x9cm, though the 60mm Componon is actually optimized closer to infinity. But that Componon is really excellent. It is my reference small format lens for sharpness.

[Dan Fromm]

What I found out testing the Polaroid Tominons personally is that the 50mm f/4.5 was actually a process lens optimized for 1:1 (it covers 6x9cm at 1:1). Though Polaroid recommended it for quite different magnification ratios at which the 50mm Tominon was not too good. And Polaroid recommended another Tominon for 1:1 - which was not optimized for 1:1 at all....

That said, I find my 60mm f/5.6 Schneider Componon sharper then the 50mm f/4.5 Tominon even at 1:1, both for 24x36mm and 6x9cm, though the 60mm Componon is actually optimized closer to infinity. But that Componon is really excellent. It is my reference small format lens for sharpness.

Ridax, Polaroid's recommended magnification ranges for the MP-4 Tominons are simply the magnifications at which they'll cover 4x5.

I've had all of them but the 105 and have tried out every one I've had. Quality control wasn't the best, and neither are the lenses. There are better. I wouldn't use the 135 or 75. I'd use the 50 only under duress; a reversed 55 MicroNikkor (any version) is much better. The 35 and 17 aren't best in class but are usable and quite cost effective.

[John Layton]

The old 3.5 version of the 55 Micro Nikkor, reversed - is wonderful for larger than life closeups with 4x5...you can mount a naked shutter in a Nikon rear lens cap and stick this on also - if you need a shutter and/or to sync a flash.

[ridax]

Ridax, Polaroid's recommended magnification ranges for the MP-4 Tominons are simply the magnifications at which they'll cover 4x5.

Yes indeed.


I've had all of them but the 105 and have tried out every one I've had. Quality control wasn't the best, and neither are the lenses. There are better. I wouldn't use the 135 or 75. I'd use the 50 only under duress; a reversed 55 MicroNikkor (any version) is much better.

I like the 127 and the 105 but not the 75. The 75 is worse in its sharpness than the extremely cheap Russian (domestic for me) enlarging Industar 75mm f/4. Worse in the out of focus rendition, too.... A 74mm Wollensak Raptar (which I love; but I can't do anything but admit it's not the sharpest lens in the 75mm Tessar-type pool) is still better. But I concider the 127 and the 105 Tominons to be good (at least the couple of specimens I have/had are). Though even the 127 and the 105 are less good then the Rodenstock Isaron ones of the same focal lengths, made for the same Polaroid cameras.

I am not a Nikon user but I've tested a 105 Mikro-Nikkor, and it was even sharper than my reference 60mm f/5.6 Componon in the macro range. But the Micro-Nikkor I had an experience with was an AF one with internal focusing, and before it got to my place it had sucked a lot of dust inside it (though I was just the 2nd owner of the lens, and the 1st one didn't use it much) so the Nikkor's contrast was already poor compared to my Componon's.... I've noticed a number of people value MF Micro-Nikkors much more than the AF ones. But again, I am not a Nikon guy, and I don't know anything more about those Mikro-Nikkors of different generations.

P.S.: I just realized I've typed 135 instead of 127.... corrected it now. Sorry.

[xkaes]

Maybe it's just manufacturing variation, but I'm pleased with my Tominon 135mm and 75mm lenses, but the only comparison I can make are to my Minolta 100mm and 50mm Bellows Macro Rokkor-X lenses.

224186

And I think the "build quality" of the Tominon's is great.

[Garen]

I searched the internet again and couldn't find any specs on these lenses. I hit upon www.butkus.org and was able to look up Polaroid MP-4 camera manual and Polaroid lens manual for the MP-4 camera. No specs there either.

I now have a strong feeling that the Tominons are magnification lenses designed for imaging flat surfaces. I.e. they are enlarger lenses in reverse. The longer focal lengths offer 1:1 magnification at minimum. And they are cheap. My main desire to learn more about them is for the photography of buildings when mounted in reverse. Normal photography lenses will project a spherical surface onto a flat surface. Hence the barrel distortion. In principle, a process lens should project a flat surface onto a flat surface which means parallel lines should appear parallel. The remaining issue is to get the depth of field right for non-equidistant lines to be in focus. I have a strong suspicion that older view camera lenses were actually enlarger lenses. They produced the best images of buildings known to man.

Maybe my question should become: "How to photograph buildings with enlarger lenses?" What is the first step?

Your thoughts and experiences will be appreciated.

Garen

PS: gorgeous picture xkaes. Proof that Tominons produce color and detail as good as any other.

[xkaes]

If you are interested in reversing the Tominon lenses, a simple test could verify your supposition.

My 135 and 75mm Tominons have front filter threads, and I assume the 35mm and 17mm lenses do as well, but who knows?

On the 135mm it is 39mm, but on the 75mm it appears to be 39.5mm. I've never heard of that one before. 35.5mm? -- sure. 40.5mm? -- yup. But 39.5? That's a new one on me. A 40mm filter is too wide, and a 39mm fits kinds-sorta, but is loose.

Just FYI. And where do you get a 40mm-to-39mm reverse ring? Got me!

[Dan Fromm]

Garen, MP-4 Tominons that you're obsessed with were made to be used on a copy stand, not for use as taking lenses at distance. I described the formulas for you, that's about all that's available. I'll say it again. Polaroid published a table showing recommended magnification ranges for these lenses. The lowest magnification in each lens' recommended range is the lowest magnification at which it will cover 4x5. The highest magnification is the highest magnification the lens can reach on a normal MP-4 stand. They'll all reach higher magnifications on an MP-4XL stand.

The MP-4 Tominons are all shorter than 4x5's normal focal length. None has enough coverage to be used as a wide angle lens on a 4x5 or larger camera.

What you wrote about distortion is nonsense.

You wrote:


I have a strong suspicion that older view camera lenses were actually enlarger lenses.

Do you understand lens optimization? Designing lenses by hand, as was done before the advent of digital computers, is a very labor intensive process. Older lenses, special high magnification lenses such as CZJ Mikrotars, which were introduced before WW II, and process lenses, optimized for 1:1, were typically optimized for infinity.

Some posters here will tell you that they've used enlarging lenses at distance with good results. There are posts in this discussion that say the same for the 135/4.5 MP-4 Tominon. I have got results that I see as poor with every enlarging lens and with the three MP-4 135/4.5 Tominons I've tried out at distance. There's no disputing tastes. Your standards may not be mine. The only way for you to find out whether any of these lenses will satisfy you is to buy and try.

Taking lenses were used as enlarging lenses. I have some old CZJ Tessars that were sold as general purpose lenses, to be used as taking lenses, as enlarging lenses and for reductions. They're engraved vergrosserung on one end and verkleinerung on the other. Enlarging, also taking, with the small negative behind the lens and the large print/subject in front and reducing, with the large negative behind the lens and the small print in front.

It seems that the first lenses designed specifically for enlarging were Boyer's Saphir B lenses, which came to market in the mid-1930s. My friend Eric Beltrando and I wrote the book on Boyer. Saphir Bs are mediocre.

Please provide evidence that early photographers, who had very few lenses designed specifically for enlarging, used enlarging lenses to photograph buildings. Name names.

You also wrote:


Maybe my question should become: "How to photograph buildings with enlarger lenses?" What is the first step?

Get an enlarging lens of the focal length you think appropriate for shooting buildings and that will have enough coverage. You'll need coverage because you'll want to use front rise to eliminate converging verticals. The lens you get would ideally be in shutter. Few enlarging lenses were sold in shutter, and not many have cells that are direct fits in standard shutters. If you get an enlarging lens in barrel and the cells fit a shutter, get the shutter needed. If not, find a way to hang the lens in front of a shutter (that's how the MP-4 Tominons are used) or to hang a shutter in front of the lens. When you've done this, go shoot buildings.

And you wrote:



PS: gorgeous picture xkaes. Proof that Tominons produce color and detail as good as any other.

I don't want to denigrate Joe's work, your comment is another matter. There are much better lenses for macrophotography and photomacrography. Macro-Nikkors, Luminars, Photars, ...

[xkaes]

There are much better lenses for macrophotography and photomacrography. Macro-Nikkors, Luminars, Photars, ...

I guess "..." means "Minolta, Olympus, Canon, Yashica, and others".

[Dan Fromm]

I guess "..." means "Minolta, Olympus, Canon, Yashica, and others".

Yes, of course, but the SLR macro lenses aren't intended for working much above 1:1. The MP-4 Tominons are.

[xkaes]

I can't speak to all the others, but Minolta's 25mm bellows lens is designed for 3X-8X, and their 12.5mm bellows lens is designed for 8X-20X. But those ranges are using Minolta's bellow's limits. They work perfectly well outside those bellows restrictions.

[Dan Fromm]

I can't speak to all the others, but Minolta's 25mm bellows lens is designed for 3X-8X, and their 12.5mm bellows lens is designed for 8X-20X. But those ranges are using Minolta's bellow's limits. They work perfectly well outside those bellows restrictions.

Rebadged Photars.

[xkaes]

Rebadged Photars.

...intended to work well above 1:1.

[Dan Fromm]

...intended to work well above 1:1.

Yep. As are most of the high performance macro lenses from microscope manufacturers. Not what the OP needs to photograph buildings.

[Garen]

Dan: waffling and condescension is not knowledge. Share your pictures taken by tominons. We can judge your tominon work just as you are judging xkaes work. I used to earn money taking pictures of buildings in my student days. I used WF Ektars. Doesn’t make me an expert but answers one of your belittling questions. You might be interested to know that I have designed and ground a 4" achromatic air spaced doublet objective to build my own telescope. Still doesn't make me an expert, but answers another one of your condescending questions. The math might be out of reach for many people, but I can do a doublet design with my left hand during a coffee break. Aberration calcs will require a lunch break and both hands. If I program a computer, the results will be instantaneous.

xkaes: The male thread for attaching a filter to the front of a Tominon is 39.3mm X 0.7mm. I machined a 39.5mm for a friend years ago. It was a little tight. But he preferred it. He had the 75mm and the 105mm in shutters. He mounted the 105mm in reverse on a lens board and it became his favorite lens. He died years ago and took the tominon experience away with him. I recently received a 105mm loaner. I will start machining an adapter to mount it to a M39 X 26

ridax: Thanks for your advice on Schneider 60mm. I'll look into it. I may have to go down to smaller negative size if the coverage is limited. I am experimenting right now. It is not the final deal.

I dug up my dad’s Kodak lens book which gives depth of field tables for most Kodak lenses. I'll see if those tables will work for Tominon 105mm. The tables do not cover lenses shorter than 100mm. I may need to write up a spreadsheet for the calcs and carry it in my cell phone.

Back to the main request: please share your experience photographing buildings with enlarger lenses. Does an EL produce pictures for you that are free of barrel distortion?

Thanks.

Garen

[xkaes]

xkaes: The male thread for attaching a filter to the front of a Tominon is 39.3mm X 0.7mm.

Garen

Thanks for resolving that "head-scratcher", but 39.3mm is even stranger than 39.5mm!!! Reminds me of my Spiratone MACROSTIGMAT +20 diopter supplementary lens. Apparently it was only made with a 52mm thread on the rear, and for some STRANGE reason, the front filter thread is 54mm -- NOT 52mm, Not 55mm. Talk about NUTS.

As to using enlarging lenses with LARGE objects as a taking lens, I have no experience. I have a 135mm and 150mm for 4x5" enlargements, but the only enlarging lenses I've used outside the darkroom have been shorter focal length lenses that only cover 4x5" at higher magnifications -- nothing close to infinity.

[Dan Fromm]

Dan: waffling and condescension is not knowledge. Share your pictures taken by tominons. We can judge your tominon work just as you are judging xkaes work. I used to earn money taking pictures of buildings in my student days. I used WF Ektars. Doesn’t make me an expert but answers one of your belittling questions. You might be interested to know that I have designed and ground a 4" achromatic air spaced doublet objective to build my own telescope. Still doesn't make me an expert, but answers another one of your condescending questions. The math might be out of reach for many people, but I can do a doublet design with my left hand during a coffee break. Aberration calcs will require a lunch break and both hands. If I program a computer, the results will be instantaneous.

xkaes: The male thread for attaching a filter to the front of a Tominon is 39.3mm X 0.7mm. I machined a 39.5mm for a friend years ago. It was a little tight. But he preferred it. He had the 75mm and the 105mm in shutters. He mounted the 105mm in reverse on a lens board and it became his favorite lens. He died years ago and took the tominon experience away with him. I recently received a 105mm loaner. I will start machining an adapter to mount it to a M39 X 26

ridax: Thanks for your advice on Schneider 60mm. I'll look into it. I may have to go down to smaller negative size if the coverage is limited. I am experimenting right now. It is not the final deal.

I dug up my dad’s Kodak lens book which gives depth of field tables for most Kodak lenses. I'll see if those tables will work for Tominon 105mm. The tables do not cover lenses shorter than 100mm. I may need to write up a spreadsheet for the calcs and carry it in my cell phone.

Back to the main request: please share your experience photographing buildings with enlarger lenses. Does an EL produce pictures for you that are free of barrel distortion?

Thanks.

Garen

Thanks for the kind reply. Please send a scanner and funds to pay for the time unearthing my old test shots will take.

Which format do you intend to shoot? I ask because none of the MP-4 Tominons, or, for that matter, many enlarging lenses with focal lengths <= 150 mm have the coverage needed to shoot 4x5 at distance with much front rise.

Please explain why you're obsessed with barrel distortion. Most normal ordinary LF lenses have low distortion.

Also please explain why you haven't tried to answer your questions about whether MP-4 Tominons or enlarging lenses will do what you want by addressing the lenses instead of strangers who believe, with or without good reason, that they're not fit for your purposes. The Tominons aren't that expensive.

[ridax]

ridax: Thanks for your advice on Schneider 60mm. I'll look into it. I may have to go down to smaller negative size if the coverage is limited. I am experimenting right now. It is not the final deal.
Garen

The 60mm f/5.6 Componon was made for the 4x4cm (Baby Rollei) format. But I use it for 24x36mm and prefer it to any 50mm enlarging lenses, including the ones with the 'APO-' lable.

My wife is an artist working in oils, ad I take digital pictures of her work from time to time. I put a bellows device on my EOS, and I put Componons on the front of the bellows. Those are the lenses I prefer for their sharpness and contrast.

But I almost never use Componons for taking pictures of 3-D subjects. Componons (and Rodagons and El-Nikkors too) produce good FRONT out of focus image wide open but their out of focus background rendition is ugly at all apertures.

The Tessar-type Tominons (and Ysarons) are far less sharp (though I consider them to be very usable) but their out of focus rendition is really good from approximately f/6.3 to f/11.


Back to the main request: please share your experience photographing buildings with enlarger lenses. Does an EL produce pictures for you that are free of barrel distortion?
Garen

I've made some tests of a number of my lenses for the distortion. None of my Componons and Rodagons ever showed any visible distortion - not only in their original enlarging magnification range but close to infinity either. But people who need even better freedom of distortion usually prefer Apo-Ronars to Rodagons/Componons even for the enlarging purposes....