How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

[nitroplait]

Hello everyone. My first post.
Out of the blue, a pristine large format lens landed in my lab - and I take it as a sign that I should try to familiarise myself with LF photography - I have practiced film photography since the mid 70's so better late than never.

I am in no great hurry and will use some time to scout for camera and accessories but I would also prefer not to overspend.
Noticing that it is more economical to buy used 4x5 filmholders in quantities, I was wondering how many would be a good starting point?

Looking at my current work/life balance, I imagine a future use-case scenario where I will seek out a location with a potential subject and spend around 2-3 hours to photograph and look for compositions and alternatives.
I would only bring one film type.
In such a scenario, how many film holders would you bring?

[otto.f]

6 or 8, unless it's a site where I return a few times for the right light and circumstances and the type of film is already decided. So normally, 2 B&W, 2 color and 2 other B&W with other ASA. So, that means 4 sheets per type of film. In the beginning of getting acquainted with a film I need 4 for bracketing, later on I use it for different scenes or viewpoints.
Thus, in your scenario two holders should be enough. They are not that heavy either, so it's not a big deal for me.

[Ironage]

My practice is to take 2-3 holders. That way I can process all in one batch. My b&w tank holds six. I made a pouch which I sling over my shoulder so that I have quick access to them when my camera and tripod are being set up.

[Greg]

4x5 - six holders, many times have shot all 12 negatives
whole plate - six holders, usually only shoot 2 or 3 negatives
8x10 - 4 holders, usually shoot 4+ negatives
11x14 - 3 holders, usually shoot 2-3 negatives

So much depends on the location and subject matter. When shooting locally around town, most of the time take only one or two film holders. When I spent one afternoon photographing at the Blowing Cave Park (Nature Preserve) in Kennebunkport, Maine, I also took a film changing bag with me and ended up shooting 30+ 4x5 negatives. All close up images of the rocks. Ironically not one image of the Blowing Cave.

[r.e.]

I think that the answer depends on how much money you want to spend on film and processing, as well as on how much time you want to spend on processing/scanning if you do it yourself. You don't say what format you'll be shooting, but as the screen captures below show a single sheet of 8x10 colour film can cost U.S. $24 ex-tax. Also, note that sheet film costs significantly more per cm² than roll film.

I keep cost and wasted time down by scouting a location in advance and planning what I'm going to photograph and how. To do this, I use a Sekonic light meter and the apps Artist's Viewfinder (https://www.artistsviewfinder.com) and PhotoPills (https://www.photopills.com). Because you're only using one lens, a digital camera with an equivalent lens might help a lot in controlling cost, saving time and avoiding mistakes.

My objective is to know in advance how many different images I want. There needs be a good reason for more than one. If I think that it's necessary, I'll include additional sheets for bracketing. If the subject is a person, I expect to expose more sheets than if the subject is inanimate.

I don't know the price of film where you live. However, I'm attaching two screen captures that show the prices of Ilford, Kodak and Fuji films that are available in the U.S. for both 4x5 and 8x10. These were B&H's prices, ex-sales tax, in August 2021. The second price in a cell is the price per sheet or frame.




Cost of Black and White Film Stocks

223808


Cost of Colour Film Stocks

223809

[Paul Ron]

id say 6 to 10 is about right. when i started again, i bought 100 holders because they were alot cheaper than getting a few for about the same price. i tried selling them but no one was interested at the time.

today, 90 are still in the closet... how many do you want?

[abruzzi]

Six. I carry my 4x5s in either a Domke F-2 or a Domke F-7. One feature similar about those two bags is there are two side pockets that are perfectly sized for 3 4x5 film holders each. So, since my bags are both spaced for 6 holders, thats what I carry, though for a single day outing, I only occasionally shoot that many sheets.

[David Schaller]

For 4x5, I think you should buy 12 holders. Taking 6 out for a few hours should be sufficient, and you would have the other 6 loaded for another shoot. I still take two exposures of each shot, both sides of the holder, so it might be some time before I get around to developing the second sheet. If you have too many holders, those undeveloped sheets can pile up.

[nitroplait]

Great input and lots of food for thought - thanks a lot!


My practice is to take 2-3 holders. That way I can process all in one batch. <snip>
A very good point. Makes sense to use that as a criteria - or perhaps multiples of processing capacity; 3, 6 or 9...



<snip>
Cost of Black and White Film Stocks

223808


Cost of Colour Film Stocks

223809
Cost is certainly a criteria and the price of 4x5 color film and processing would be prohibitive for me. I process my own BW film and intend to do the same with the 4x5 sheets.
My initial thought is to burn some Formapan to get the hang of it (which cost less than half of everything else), and then use Ilford FP4+ going forward as it is my preferred film in other formats.



id say 6 to 10 is about right. when i started again, i bought 100 holders because they were alot cheaper than getting a few for about the same price. i tried selling them but no one was interested at the time.

today, 90 are still in the closet... how many do you want?
LOL. Thanks! That reminds me of my stash of reloadable 35mm cassettes - more than I will ever load simultaneously. Exactly what I (and my wife) wants to avoid. I would gladly relieve you the burden of 6-9 holders but suspect that the trip across the Pond would end up inefficient costwise when including shipping and custom fees. But thanks anyway :)

[r.e.]

Further to post #5, these videos, uploaded to YouTube in the last few days, show a photographer named Mike Grey making his first 8x10 photograph. I'm posting these videos because they show an approach that differs from "finding" photographs. Grey is an actor turned photographer, and I suspect that his approach owes a good deal to what he's learned on film shoots. No doubt one motivator was cost. He took four shots at a cost of US$400. His film, Portra 160, is currently US$21 per sheet, so the balance was presumably for the professional processing and drum scans that he arranged for.

The shoot took place at a vacant house at Bombay Beach in California (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Beach,_California). He scouted the Beach in advance to identify a location, conceptualise his photograph and work out technical issues. The shoot involved three models, but there is no reason in principle why he would not take the same approach if he was only photographing the house.

I'm splitting the videos between two posts due to the upload requirements of the forum. This first video is a brief overview. The video in the next post is a detailed behind the scenes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3qPzsZQ4Pk

[r.e.]

Further to the post just above, this is the behind the scenes video. Note that everyone involved in the shoot is relaxed, no indecision, no fretting, no tension. I think that that is the direct result of the planning that went into making the photograph.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPAkAWjXdoY

[Two23]

I regularly go out on all day drives in the Dakotas on Saturday and usually Sunday. I take about six 4x5 holders per day. If 8x10 I only take two. I've now standardized on only shooting Ilford FP4+. My subjects are always static so speed doesn't matter. Having one film makes processing much easier. My Stearman SP-445 tank holds four sheets and that's in the back of my mind as I take photos. I don't want to fill it for just two or three sheets.


Kent in SD

[Mark Sampson]

My old Tamrac bag will hold 12 4x5 holders if I stuff it full. That's plenty for a day of personal photographs; it's not often that I use them all.
I must own at least three dozen holders; they accumulate over time, and when I shot color as well as b&w, I needed more.
When I was shooting architecture professionally I had them all loaded and carried in their own case, and sometimes used them all. Quite a different set of circumstances!

[Kiwi7475]

For backpacking, Grafmatics are nice if you tend to shoot more than 6 sheets per outing. They carry 6 sheets each in about the weight and size of 1.5 regular holders, so the difference between carrying 3 regular holders and a grafmatic is not huge, but not zero, but if you need 8-12 exposures then 2 grafmatics take a lot less volume than 6 holders in a backpack, and so on.

[Doremus Scudder]

How many holders to take on a day hike and how many holders to own and have ready are two different questions.

When I'm out for a 4-6-hour day hike somewhere, I carry six holders. When I used to backpack more, 2-5 days at a time, then I carried Mido holders or Readyloads (now discontinued) and about 30 sheets worth (figuring 5-6 exposures a day on average).

When I'm on road trips photographing, I'll still take just six holders with me, but I've got a cooler in the car with 50 holders, loaded and ready. These I change out as I expose film till I get to the point where I only have a few left, at which time I'll reload. If it's a longer road trip, I carry extra film and empty film boxes for the exposed film and change film either in a darkened motel bathroom or, on occasion, on a clean garbage bag laid out on the sleeping bag inside my tent in the middle of the night. For shorter trips, when I haven't exposed close to 100 sheets, I'll reload at home in my darkroom

So, the real question for the OP is not how many holders to carry in a day, but how many you need to have ready for the photographing you plan to do before you have a chance to reload holders. That depends a lot on how often and how intensely you photograph and what the intervals you need between reloading possibilities are. I'd certainly get 15-20 holders to start with, especially since one can buy good used holders in larger batches for $5 each.

Best,

Doremus

[Dugan]

I typically do day hikes, and usually have 6-8 4x5 holders loaded with B/W film, as well as 3-4 holders loaded with color...just in case I see a scene that screams out to be shot in color.

[maltfalc]

Cost is certainly a criteria and the price of 4x5 color film and processing would be prohibitive for me. I process my own BW film and intend to do the same with the 4x5 sheets.
My initial thought is to burn some Formapan to get the hang of it (which cost less than half of everything else), and then use Ilford FP4+ going forward as it is my preferred film in other formats.

get some x-ray film. ten times cheaper than anything else. and buy however many holders you manage to find for sale at the lowest price per holder.

[Kiwi7475]

Just a comment that X-ray is a great option, but it’s not the panacea.

It’s very a delicate film, getting it from dray to dry without scratches takes some effort and frustration. I still get surprised sometimes after all these years.

And the tonality is OK but it’s not like other films.

By all means a good way to get started cheaply.
And you can always use it - I still do! But when I want the best prints, I reach out for something else altogether.

[Jody_S]

How many film holders do you bring for a day out?

As many as I can fit in the bag/case/backpack. That normally works out to 7 for 4x5, 5 for 5x7, and 4-5 for 8x10. I had 3 holders for my 11x14 before I sold the kit.

[LabRat]

It depends, but your answer will depend on a few trips out to see what your average is per day...

I keep 8 4x5 holders loaded and ready when I go out, but possible I could use more when conditions/inspiration will allow... I rarely keep the Grafmatic holders loaded, as I hate when I shoot one or two sheets that session, and have to wait another day to shoot the remaining sheets later, and start the session with less than a fully loaded holder... But if on a trip, all holders + Grafmatics are loaded so less chance film changing out there might be needed...

Steve K

[Andrew O'Neill]

If a lot of walking is required, 6 8x10 holders, 10 4x5 holders (if shooting only 4x5). If it's roadside, then both 4x5 and 8x10. All holders...15, 8x10. 20, 4x5. I'll usually have HP5, FP4, Shanghai, Adox 100, Efke 25, (as well as Rollei IR, Efke in summer months). I don't use them all...but you never know.

[metalsmith]

I thought I was simply too fiddle and unproductive. A great day for me is 5 maybe 6 shots.

[h2oman]

For 4x5, I think you should buy 12 holders. Taking 6 out for a few hours should be sufficient, and you would have the other 6 loaded for another shoot. I still take two exposures of each shot, both sides of the holder, so it might be some time before I get around to developing the second sheet. If you have too many holders, those undeveloped sheets can pile up.

I agree with this. I shoot only B&W, and take 3 holders loaded with ASA 100 and 3 with ASA 400 in my pack, have the same in the car (for landscape). I can then trade out exposed film for unexposed when I go to another location. I develop 6 sheets at a time, so having 12 holders allows me to have some loaded holders if I want to shoot on some occasion before I get time to process exposed film.

[h2oman]

I thought I was simply too fiddle and unproductive. A great day for me is 5 maybe 6 shots.

You are not alone! My wife always enjoys asking me how many pictures I took after a day of LF photography. The number generally comes in between 1 and 4.

[Bill Poole]

I tend to think in sixes, since I develop in a Mod54/ Patterson setup. To that end, my everyday bag contains three holders in a Stone 4x5 triple sleeve that can be slung around my neck--very convenient. It's a rare day that I see, or have time to shoot, six large format images, but to prepare for any eventuality, I also keep a loaded Grafmatic in the bottom of the bag. You never know.

[r.e.]

my everyday bag contains three holders in a Stone 4x5 triple sleeve that can be slung around my neck--very convenient.

I'm also a fan of Daniel Stone's sleeves for film holders. Niels might find it useful to look at this thread, which talks about the 4x5 Triple Sleeve that you use: Film Holder Sleeves: Gnass Gear > Stone Photo (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164834-Film-Holder-Sleeves-Gnass-Gear-amp-Stone-Photo)

[nitroplait]

All very helpful and enlightening - Thanks a lot!
A lot of people shoot a bit more than I imagined - possibly even more frames than I would on an average day out with my medium format camera.
I think we have covered many aspects to consider; portability, processing capability, preparedness for eventualities or preparedness for next shoot.
I understand the devil is in the details, and the details are different for everyone - but now I have an informed place to begin - thanks for that.

[Havoc]

Like many others I work in multiples of 6 sheets. So mostly 6 holders. All the same film or 2 types.

I do tend to buy boxes of 25 sheets and then load the complete box in holders, mark the holder what is in it and keep them ready so I don't need to start loading holders just before an opportunity. Loading holders in a hurry never worked for me.

It may look like I shoot a lot of film that way but last year I didn't even got the 4x5 out. Did a roll or 5 of medium format last year.

[John Layton]

When I'm working with 5x7 and driving to a location...I'll bring a dozen loaded holders in three separate RPT "Cascade" cases, with each holder also secured in its own Ziploc bag. When I arrive on or near the location, depending on how far I anticipate walking and/or how long I think I might be away from my car...I will either take all of this film with me or leave some of it in the car (protected from heat if its hot out).

In the case of the above scenario but with 4x5 film, I might take twenty four holders, but will typically leave some in the car.

For a quicker "walkabout" or a longer, more strenuous hike/climb, I will take one RTP case with four 5x7 holders, or a small shoulder bag with seven 4x5 holders.

Two additional factors which affect me more and more lately: one - At 67 yrs., I'm really starting to feel my age these days and cannot schlep as much as in the past. And two: as film prices continue to escalate, I find myself being a bit more careful in making my exposures...and will often make "onesies" where I more typically used to make at least one backup negative and/or try different settings (aperture/shutter speed, focus, movements) for the same composition.

[jnantz]

hi Niels

I hate to say this because it really doesn't help you much ... but "it depends"
it depends on the camera I am using (some don't take holders but the media is inside them )
if it is a camera that needs holders I just grab a handful unless I know in advance the situation then sometimes I've had to bring 20-30 of them.

John

[nitroplait]

get some x-ray film. ten times cheaper than anything else. and buy however many holders you manage to find for sale at the lowest price per holder.
Interesting idea, but I'm not sure where to find x-ray film in the EU.
With Formapan selling for less than the equivalent of 1 US$ pr. 4x5 sheet (including VAT) I guess it is cheap enough to allow for mistakes.

[Vaughn]

As a slow edit-before-I-set-up-the-camera sort of guy, all day with 6 holders works with 4x5 up to 8x10. More like four with 11x14.
I have come home with unexposed film, and have returned home without my usual second sheet back-up for each image in order to stretch my supply of film out.
I have gone backpacking with only five (and up to to nine) 5x7 holders for a three-day backpack and have come home with unexposed film.
Car trips (week or two or three) I might take 30 loaded 8x10 holders, a dozen 5x7s loaded, and six 11x14 holders ready to go...no changing bag...photograph until time to go home or out of film (might play with the Rolleicord).
When I was bike-touring with a 4x5 for several months, I had 5 holders. If I were to do it again, I'd leave some other stuff at home and take another five holders.

Enjoy your LF experiences! Time will let you know.

[Bernice Loui]

Typically six 5x7 or 13x18 cm film holders will easily last an entire day. One sheet of two film holder per image or two sheets of film per image set up.

Multi of six works for the Jobo drums as they hold six sheets. six holders produces twelve sheets of film or two Jobo drum runs with about 1000mL of developer for two Jobo drum runs at about 500mL each run.

Side note, recently been using the Linhof Technikardan 23s aka 6x9 view camera with 120 roll film. The Linhof 6x7 Rapid Rollex gets 10 exposures per 120 roll, turns out frames used are identical to sheet film or two frames of 120 per image, or a single roll of 120 roll film goes a while. Time to set up and make images with the 5x7 Sinar Norma or Linhof Technikardan 23s is about identical, only size-weight and related are different.


Bernice

[Peter De Smidt]

I miss the days of Readyloads/Quickloads. For a day out, I'd have at least 20 packets along. These days, for a photo trip sort of thing, one where getting to and from the location is a chore, I take 10 film holders for 4x5, and 6-10 for 8x10. If I'm hiking, I wouldn't put that many 8x10 holders in my pack, but it's rare that I'm on a hike that lasts all day. I'm more likely to move to multiple places. So I'd have 10-20 holders in the car, talking out what I expected to need for each excursion away from the car. Having limited film can help you focus your attention, but it can also lead to missed shots. We all have different photographing styles. I tend to shot fairly quickly, and I'm unlikely to camp at a spot for a long time waiting for the right conditions. My first photo is rarely the best from a given location. My last one often is.

[Kiwi7475]

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure where to find x-ray film in the EU.
With Formapan selling for less than the equivalent of 1 US$ pr. 4x5 sheet (including VAT) I guess it is cheap enough to allow for mistakes.


Interesting idea, but I'm not sure where to find x-ray film in the EU.
With Formapan selling for less than the equivalent of 1 US$ pr. 4x5 sheet (including VAT) I guess it is cheap enough to allow for mistakes.

The medical kind you can find it on eBay, just search for “hru film”, for example. Ships everywhere, of course shipping cost to the EU may not be small and… you’ll have to cut it as I don’t think there’s medical X-ray in 4x5. There’s in 8x10 and larger (not many medical uses for X-rays in “smaller” formats). But given how scratch prone it is, I’d be nervous to add a trimming step to the already delicate handling process X-ray film needs.

Film photography project (FPP) does sell X-ray in 4x5, at about $1 per sheet (plus shipping).

So cost wise I think you’re doing well using Fomapan already. Which I think it’s also a better film to use for most applications than x-ray (my opinion).

Where x-ray becomes really appealing is in “larger” formats. For example X-ray in 11x14 costs about $0.80 per sheet….

[Tobias Key]

It really depends on what I am shooting. I have a separate bag that holds about 15 holders plus my lesser used filters and back up bits and pieces. If I am shooting portraits I carry it with me. I might shoot all 30 sheets, two or four sheets per set up at various locations. If I am shooting landscapes 5-6 holders is more my speed which I fit into my main pack. I keep the other holders in my car so I still have extra film if I need it. Most of the locations near me are not too remote so this works well most of the time.

[John Kasaian]

Three good holders minimum will get you going, six is better but three will work.
Twelve is even better, especially if you're working out of the trunk of the car, but that's quite an investment for someone just starting out.
Any number less than three will likely invite frustration for a new shooter
My 2-cents anyway.

[Michael R]

I’d say start with 2-4 holders.

While I’m giving my two cents, as much as this will irk some people, do yourself a favour and don’t mess with x-ray film. Use proper general purpose film.


Hello everyone. My first post.
Out of the blue, a pristine large format lens landed in my lab - and I take it as a sign that I should try to familiarise myself with LF photography - I have practiced film photography since the mid 70's so better late than never.

I am in no great hurry and will use some time to scout for camera and accessories but I would also prefer not to overspend.
Noticing that it is more economical to buy used 4x5 filmholders in quantities, I was wondering how many would be a good starting point?

Looking at my current work/life balance, I imagine a future use-case scenario where I will seek out a location with a potential subject and spend around 2-3 hours to photograph and look for compositions and alternatives.
I would only bring one film type.
In such a scenario, how many film holders would you bring?

[maltfalc]

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure where to find x-ray film in the EU.
With Formapan selling for less than the equivalent of 1 US$ pr. 4x5 sheet (including VAT) I guess it is cheap enough to allow for mistakes.
https://www.ebay.nl/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=fuji+green+x-ray+film+10x12&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=x-ray+film+10x12&_osacat=0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=fuji+green+x-ray+film+10x12&_sacat=0

[r.e.]

I've never used X-ray film, but this 2020 Mat Marrash video has a demonstration and discusses pros and cons. He says that there is a very long thread about X-ray film on this forum.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDU8TUOWX8o

[r.e.]

Marrash also demonstrates shooting with X-ray film (green, full speed) in the first 5m 45s of this 2021 video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBOt9DsvUxw

[Michael R]

Proper film is a cost of the hobby. Telling a newcomer (or anyone for that matter) to use x-ray film is bad advice. Sorry.

[j.e.simmons]

X-ray film has to be learned just as any film does. Used within its limitations, it works well.

[maltfalc]

Proper film is a cost of the hobby. Telling a newcomer (or anyone for that matter) to use x-ray film is bad advice. Sorry.

the x-ray film thread is over 600 pages long, so apparently plenty of people who aren't you have managed to do just fine with it.

[Dugan]

Maybe we should recommend that newcomers memorize "The Negative" by AA, too....so they can apply the Zone System calibrations to their X-Ray film.
Ya know, make it hard for them so they get discouraged and quit?
That sounds like a great idea! ...NOT.

[Michael R]

the x-ray film thread is over 600 pages long, so apparently plenty of people who aren't you have managed to do just fine with it.

“Just fine” is a matter of opinion. Of course x-ray film can be exposed and processed. However it was not designed to be either exposed or processed in the ways most typically undertaken in the practice of general photography. Putting aside the technical issues, there is the (apparently unimportant) matter of tone reproduction - x-ray film is not panchromatic, nor does it have a long exposure scale. Presumably a newcomer the the LF hobby, with its inherent technical challenges, would be better served by a less recalcitrant, purpose-made product. x-ray film isn’t simply a cheaper option. It’s an alternative process.

Everybody do what they want, of course. I just don’t think x-ray film is a material someone ought to begin LF with.

[Havoc]

https://www.ebay.nl/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=fuji+green+x-ray+film+10x12&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=x-ray+film+10x12&_osacat=0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=fuji+green+x-ray+film+10x12&_sacat=0

I looked at those and they all come from the US or further away. Let's take a look at just the first on the list:
- 100 sheets 10x12 (approx 4x5) €39.61
- postage €45.63
- taxes and duties, 30% on the total of film and postage €25.57

Total = €110.81

A box of 50 sheets Fomapan 100 4x5 is €34.95 (incl of taxes). And Fomapan 100 isn't that bad a film, I like it.

The larger sizes might be more interesting. But not having local sources means it can get expensive anyway once it passes customs. And can you be sure it doesn't pass any x-ray on the way?

[fotopfw]

In rough terrain, backpacking, I take 5 holders (4x5"), I fill my holder always with the complete pack of film (Portra, Ektar).
8x10" I don't wander far from the car, so I take more with me in the car.

[maltfalc]

I looked at those and they all come from the US or further away. Let's take a look at just the first on the list:
- 100 sheets 10x12 (approx 4x5) €39.61
- postage €45.63
- taxes and duties, 30% on the total of film and postage €25.57

Total = €110.81

A box of 50 sheets Fomapan 100 4x5 is €34.95 (incl of taxes). And Fomapan 100 isn't that bad a film, I like it.

The larger sizes might be more interesting. But not having local sources means it can get expensive anyway once it passes customs. And can you be sure it doesn't pass any x-ray on the way?

10x12 = 25x30cm. that's 600 100x125mm (4x5) sheets. €9.23 (total) per 50 4x5 sheets. it's clearly marked as film and shouldn't get x-rayed. even if it did, it's iso is ten times too low to be fogged by an x-ray scanner.

[maltfalc]

Maybe we should recommend that newcomers memorize "The Negative" by AA, too....so they can apply the Zone System calibrations to their X-Ray film.
Ya know, make it hard for them so they get discouraged and quit?
That sounds like a great idea! ...NOT.

are you seriously complaining about there being a large amount of information on a subject to help people understand it? you know there's a search function right? you don't have to read all 600 pages, ffs.

[Dugan]

You are misinterpreting my point entirely.
Bye.

[maltfalc]

You are misinterpreting my point entirely.
Bye.

my interpretation is wrong, but you aren't going to provide any sort of correction? seems legit... NOT!

[maltfalc]

“Just fine” is a matter of opinion. Of course x-ray film can be exposed and processed. However it was not designed to be either exposed or processed in the ways most typically undertaken in the practice of general photography. Putting aside the technical issues, there is the (apparently unimportant) matter of tone reproduction - x-ray film is not panchromatic, nor does it have a long exposure scale. Presumably a newcomer the the LF hobby, with its inherent technical challenges, would be better served by a less recalcitrant, purpose-made product. x-ray film isn’t simply a cheaper option. It’s an alternative process.

Everybody do what they want, of course. I just don’t think x-ray film is a material someone ought to begin LF with.

i love how you're trying to portray x-ray film being orthochromatic as a negative for beginners, rather than a huge advantage over panchromatic films because you can load it and develop it by inspection under a safelight.

[Michael R]

I'm not trying anything. Non-panchromatically sensitized film doesn't "see" the way a beginner might expect, complicates metering and exposure index, and results in distorted tone reproduction. In addition, x-ray film is further removed from ortho camera films in its comparatively short exposure scale, not to mention other shortcomings. I guess being able to load film holders under a red safelight is nice, so if OP wants to do that, and wants an orthochromatic rendering, I suggest Ilford Ortho Plus.

This isn't worth arguing about. If you think x-ray film is good for general purpose photography that's fine. Use it. Recommend it. I think it is garbage. That's also fine. Who cares.


i love how you're trying to portray x-ray film being orthochromatic as a negative for beginners, rather than a huge advantage over panchromatic films because you can load it and develop it by inspection under a safelight.

[Havoc]

10x12 = 25x30cm. that's 600 100x125mm (4x5) sheets. €9.23 (total) per 50 4x5 sheets. it's clearly marked as film and shouldn't get x-rayed. even if it did, it's iso is ten times too low to be fogged by an x-ray scanner.

Ah is it? Sorry, when I read measurements without units I assume SI.

[Mudrunner]

If I have a specific subject in mind and it's inanimate, I might just take 1 holder ( I call that a "Deer Hunter" day...1 shot).
The number of holders goes up from there..depending on how long I will be out, how hard a hike it is, the variance in light conditions, the potential subject matter, my indecisiveness, my own uncertainty, and compensating for "what if", and FOMO.
So...typically anything more than 2, but less than 12. Never more than 12 on a day trip.
YMMV

[Lars Holte]

Hi Niels,

I'm fairly new to 4x5 photography - got me a Toyo 45C View camera in May 2021 and a Toyo 45A Field camera in July 2021. The 45A Field is a dream to work with. I find three filmholders (6 exposures) sufficient for a short trip with the camera (we rarely do long hikes here in Denmark, do we?). I like to work slowly and think things through, so six exposures are enough for one outing. If I plan a more elaborate project, I take six holders (12 exposures) with me. I have managed to acquire 15 holders though, as some of them came with one of the cameras. Like some people here, I work in multiples of six sheets, as my Jobo development tank takes six or twelve sheets. I don't make more than one exposure of a single subject, unless I know that I have messed something up - and you usually know that right away. If you plan to do tray development of your sheets in full darkness, then you might consider shooting multiples of four, as that is a practical number for tray processing.

I only take holders loaded with one film type with me, as I fear that mixing holders with two (or more) types of film will invite mistakes. I might plan differently, if I was going on a longer trip, though.

So far I have only used expired Agfa APX and Kodak T-Max film, but those sources have dried up, so now I have bought some Fomapan 100 and 200 and Retropan 320. I have used the expired film for experimentation and to familiarize myself with the camera and will use the Fomapan film to gain more experience. I have also bought some Ilford FP4+ for more serious work. I consider Foma film very useful and know from shooting Foma in my medium format camera that the results can be quite good, but also that there may be some (manufacturing) issues. If I want consistent results I think that Ilford is the way to go.

[rdenney]

Do not break the rules before learning them.

Start with conventional film and learn the ropes. The film will be the least expensive thing starting out.

When I formed my habits, I had ten hangers for my deep tanks, and therefore processed in batches of ten. Now, I work in batches of six in daylight tanks, but habits die hard.

I usually made the shot I wanted, and then flipped the holder and made a backup, perhaps changing one detail if I wasn’t sure about something. Of course, I made notes.

Then, in the darkroom I would load all the Side 1 negatives into holders and process. If all those came out, I might not process Side 2 negatives at all. That would also protect me against a catastrophic darkroom issue, and those have happened, too.

I have 20 holders, and routinely carry ten out of that habit. But rarely do I use more than three or four on an outing.

Most of what I do these days is color, and I still have a lot of color film in quickloads in the freezer. I have to send those off for processing. But a good year for me these days is ten photographs in large format.

I really miss quickloads, and when I run out of those I’ll probably go back to black and white. It’s been a long time since I worked in black and white.

Rick “darkroom challenged” Denney

[Kiwi7475]

We don’t need to get so hung up about x-ray. People have used it starting on LF as the main or even only film source. Some people even wrote books about it, such as this:

Built From Scratch: Adventures In X-ray Film Photography With A Homemade 11x14 View Camera

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0359607071/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_BCVBGGZJ33HJ6FYNG8M5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

I would personally keep Foma going, it’s economical, OP likes it, it already comes in 4x5, he can source it locally (fast), and he likes it.

With X-ray come more responsibilities. Glass-bottom trays to avoid scratches. Careful handling to avoid scratches. Trimming to size (did I say to be careful about scratches?). Exposure considerations. Tonality differences. On the plus side , it’s cheap, and perhaps the only reasonable film for ULF sizes for those that want to save their really expensive film for a few special occasions. It can totally be made to work with enough effort, dedication and interest. And you can see it come to life under a red light, unlike panchromatic film (with the right red light however… I’ve successfully fogged X-ray under a few “safe red lights”). I use it for ULF but it’s not what I started with, and would therefore not recommend it to those who are starting, unless he/she specifically wants to start that route for some reason (such as the book above).

[jp]

As others do, I develop 6 or 12 sheets at a time and that makes a difference in how much I shoot.

I bring 7 4x5 holders since that's what a plano ammo box holds. That box keeps them clean and dry, and I also anti-static bag the film holders within the plano box.

[Havoc]

But a good year for me these days is ten photographs in large format.

Do you mean ten keepers or just ten shots?

[Drew Wiley]

Day use : 8X10 - never more than 3, or if shooting both color and b&w, maybe two of each, maybe only one holder of each. With 4X5, potentially 3 holders each, but that's still a lot of hypothetical shots, 6 shots of each, way more than I ever actually do in a single day. But I actually own a lot more holders, and keep a number of them pre-loaded. And if on a long car trip, of course there will be more along ready to use. I'm no machine-gunner. If it ain't something exceptional enough to be warrant printing, it ain't worth popping the shutter either. If I'm going out snapshooting, it makes a lot more sense to take a roll film camera instead.

[drarmament]

I take my grafmatic loaded with 6 sheets and 4 more film holders with 8, Sometimes I will 6 or 14 sheets. Depends if its street photography or if portraits.

[rdenney]

Do you mean ten keepers or just ten shots?

How many do you see me post?

Rick “who needs a project, and the time to do it” Denney

[rdenney]

Day use : 8X10 - never more than 3, or if shooting both color and b&w, maybe two of each, maybe only one holder of each. With 4X5, potentially 3 holders each, but that's still a lot of hypothetical shots, 6 shots of each, way more than I ever actually do in a single day. But I actually own a lot more holders, and keep a number of them pre-loaded. And if on a long car trip, of course there will be more along ready to use. I'm no machine-gunner. If it ain't something exceptional enough to be warrant printing, it ain't worth popping the shutter either. If I'm going out snapshooting, it makes a lot more sense to take a roll film camera instead.

What he said.

Rick “also works with Pentax 645z and Pentax 67” Denney

[esearing]

5x12 three, 4x5 6 holders in the pack and 5 more in an accessory bag. 2 shots per holder. Plus I carry a 6x9 back for the 4x5 but have not really used it yet.

How many I actually use depends on how rich in targets the area is. I have only run out of film on 2 occasions and that was due to not setting shutter properly and had to scrap that shot, film falling out, or taking backups.

[nitroplait]

Hi Niels,

I'm fairly new to 4x5 photography - got me a Toyo 45C View camera in May 2021 and a Toyo 45A Field camera in July 2021. The 45A Field is a dream to work with. I find three filmholders (6 exposures) sufficient for a short trip with the camera (we rarely do long hikes here in Denmark, do we?).
<SNIP>

Hello Lars - You are right, little chance to get lost on a hike in Denmark ;)

Thanks for sharing your experiences. From a quick ebay search, 45C looks like a very economical entry into large format - but not a field camera of course. Did you buy the 45A because the 45C was impractical to carry along?

I am trying to look for secondhand alternatives to a new Intrepid camera, but most Wista and Toyo cameras in that price bracket comes with bellows in dubious condition and looks pretty trashed - although cosmetics are of little importance as long as it works as intended. But that is a completely different discussion for another day.




If you plan to do tray development of your sheets in full darkness, then you might consider shooting multiples of four, as that is a practical number for tray processing.
<SNIP>

I was thinking MOD54 or SP-445. I read that you are less likely to mess up if you only load the MOD54 with 4 sheets, so regardless of final choice, the probability is high that I end up with a "multiples of 4" setup.

I will see if I can find a batch of more than 4 4x5 holders at a fair price - and take it from there.

[Havoc]

I was thinking MOD54 or SP-445. I read that you are less likely to mess up if you only load the MOD54 with 4 sheets, so regardless of final choice, the probability is high that I end up with a "multiples of 4" setup.

I will see if I can find a batch of more than 4 4x5 holders at a fair price - and take it from there.

Using a Jobo 2520 + 2509n I never messed up developping unless I poured in the wrong solution or messed up the dilution. And with rotation I can develop 6 of them with 270ml. Try to find a lot of 4x5 holders in Japan.

[Rayt]

On my photo road trips I tend to load up 25 5x7 holders in the hotel so to empty out two boxes of film. I really only shoot when the light is ideal so I end up using 10 or 12 sheets a day but I have had to load film in the field before so being prepared is the way to go.

[Lars Holte]

Hello Lars - You are right, little chance to get lost on a hike in Denmark ;)

Thanks for sharing your experiences. From a quick ebay search, 45C looks like a very economical entry into large format - but not a field camera of course. Did you buy the 45A because the 45C was impractical to carry along?
<snip>

I bought the 45C View because it was a bargain. It has a lot of movements and works great, but as you said it is not very practical out in the field (but of course it can be done, especially if you are working from a car). The bellows on mine was also full of small holes, but I managed to find a new bellows with frames together with a compendium hood for a very fair price on eBay.

The 45A Field is a true field camera and very well built (all metal construction) and very sturdy. I cannot recommend it enough. It does not have a lot of movements, but it has some to play with and drop-bed capability. The camera is sufficiently compact to be carried in a shoulder bag together with holders, light meter, lens(es) and focusing cloth. Mine came with 4 fine lenses from a Fujinon SWD 90mm f:5.6 to a Rodenstock Apo-Ronar 240mm f:9, revolving back, focusing hood, Schneider focusing loup, holders and a LöwePro Pro Roller 2 case. Sadly, the 45A and the 45C use different size lens boards.


I was thinking MOD54 or SP-445. I read that you are less likely to mess up if you only load the MOD54 with 4 sheets, so regardless of final choice, the probability is high that I end up with a "multiples of 4" setup.

I will see if I can find a batch of more than 4 4x5 holders at a fair price - and take it from there.

I have tried tray development in complete darkness. It is not as difficult as it sounds. The problem is handling the sheets without scratching any of them. But the method works fine and is practical for odd batches and experimentation.

I use a Jobo Multitank 2 or 5 with either one or two 2509n reels for up to six or 12 sheets at a time in a Jobo film processor. Loading the sheets on the reels can be a bit fiddly - I should think loading 6 sheets in a MOD54 is easier.

I found the majority of my holders on the Danish used site dba.dk - with some patience you can find some there that are not too expensive.

[Drew Wiley]

Quickload and Readyload sleeves were great for long backpacking trips. Since their disappearance, I've had to resort to roll film holders on long treks.

[esearing]

Quickload and Readyload sleeves were great for long backpacking trips. Since their disappearance, I've had to resort to roll film holders on long treks.

I'm surprised Ilford never took up that market creating their own readyload for the existing holders. It was convenient even if more expensive per sheet.

[G Benaim]

10 for 8x10, 5 for 7x17.

[David Lindquist]

I'm surprised Ilford never took up that market creating their own readyload for the existing holders. It was convenient even if more expensive per sheet.

That would have been really nice. I remember hearing that Polaroid assembled the Readyloads for Kodak (can any one confirm this?) and Fuji would have had the similar process in place for their instant film. For Ilford to set-up to do this from scratch probably would have been daunting particularly from a money stand point.

I'm old enough to remember (and to miss) film pack.

David

[Michael Kadillak]

A minimum of 12 for 8x10 and half a dozen for 8x20 and 11x14.

[Dugan]

That would have been really nice. I remember hearing that Polaroid assembled the Readyloads for Kodak (can any one confirm this?) and Fuji would have had the similar process in place for their instant film. For Ilford to set-up to do this from scratch probably would have been daunting particularly from a money stand point.

I'm old enough to remember (and to miss) film pack.

David

Polaroid marketed repackaged Fujichrome as Polaroid Professional Chrome 100D and 64T in ready loads, IIRC.

[Alan Klein]

I just started 4x5 LR two years ago. I'm still playing around with different films so I take all eight holders with me loaded with different film. This way I can switch off and take two shots, one in color one in BW. Or use a color that;s better suited for the lighting conditions. Right now, I have holders with Tmax100 and 400, Provia, Ektachrome and have some Velvia 50 in the fridge ready to go. I think I have a touch of OCD. :rolleyes:

[abruzzi]

I just started 4x5 LR two years ago. I'm still playing around with different films so I take all eight holders with me loaded with different film. This way I can switch off and take two shots, one in color one in BW. Or use a color that;s better suited for the lighting conditions. Right now, I have holders with Tmax100 and 400, Provia, Ektachrome and have some Velvia 50 in the fridge ready to go. I think I have a touch of OCD. :rolleyes:

I do something similar. I'm narrowing my scope on B&W films, only shooting a few, but I always bring a holder or two with a chrome loaded (mostly Provia or E100 at this point.) I'm not very good at color, and I'm beginning to think that C41 is a lost cause for me but shooting chromes are fun, and I love viewing them on a light table, even if they go no further than that. But sometimes when I'm shooting B&W, I see a scene that I want to capture in color as well.

[Drew Wiley]

The cost of tooling and setup for the Quickload & Readyload concept would be disproportionate today, given much smaller sheet film sales. The first version was simply Polaroid style 545 packets substituting early Fujichrome 50 sheet film instead. After exposure, the steel roller squeezed the adhesive packet light tight. Reliable; but the film plane itself wasn't ideally right on. I have a big Cibachrome on the wall from one of those, and the lack of full precision can be seen upon closer inspection.

The later version from Fuji, in thinner single-shot sleeves, with its wider choice of emulsions, including Acros black and white, was considerably better. Meanwhile, Kodak tried to play catch-up, and first came out with a half-baked dicey two-sheet sleeve before finally improving their own product analogously to Fuji. The dedicated holders are a whole story of their own. I stuck with my own superior modified, lightened 545 holder for both brands. But the Fuji packeting had been subcontracted to Polaroid all along. By the time the specific machinery began wearing out, Polaroid itself had become a bankrupt dinosaur, and Fuji saw no financial incentive to invest in a comparable system of their own. That was almost as painful to me, a backpacker, as stepping on a dead porcupine in the woods at night barefoot.

I have one box of E100G Readyloads left in the freezer which I might thaw this Spring, hoping it's still good. Otherwise, when I especially need compactness, I use my set of thin Mido II holders (plus clamshell adapters). Nowhere near as light as the Readyload/Quickload systems (about a third lighter than ordinary holders), but only half the bulk as ordinarily, so still a good option.

[Alan Klein]

I do something similar. I'm narrowing my scope on B&W films, only shooting a few, but I always bring a holder or two with a chrome loaded (mostly Provia or E100 at this point.) I'm not very good at color, and I'm beginning to think that C41 is a lost cause for me but shooting chromes are fun, and I love viewing them on a light table, even if they go no further than that. But sometimes when I'm shooting B&W, I see a scene that I want to capture in color as well.

You can shoot color chromes and then switch them to BW when editing. Get the best of both worlds.

Provia 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/51260893667/in/dateposted/
BW from Ektachrome 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/51260831927/in/dateposted/

[drarmament]

You can shoot color chromes and then switch them to BW when editing. Get the best of both worlds.

Provia 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/51260893667/in/dateposted/
BW from Ektachrome 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/51260831927/in/dateposted/

That what I do, I have the 6 shooter with BW and then I might have 2 hlders with a different ISO film in BW and then 2 loaded with E100 or Provia. Never know when color will be needed.

[Bernice Loui]

Contrast/dynamic range of panchromatic B&W film can be made MUCH greater (or compressed) than any color transparency film or not the same as removing the color via software from a color transparency film. The B&W image results from these two methods will NOT produce the same B&W image product.

Easy to software remove "the" color, do not expect near equal results from this practice.


Not that ok with using a digital camera in monochrome mode or software color removal as the resulting images (~Meh~) are flat different from using high quality B&W film exposed, processed as needed.
Bernice

[abruzzi]

You can shoot color chromes and then switch them to BW when editing. Get the best of both worlds.

Provia 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/51260893667/in/dateposted/
BW from Ektachrome 100: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/51260831927/in/dateposted/

As Bernice points out there is the limited dynamic range of chromes that will limit you, but the bigger thing to me is I really am a B&W photographer. I don't want to give up shooting, developing, or printing B&W. Shooting color is more of a diversion for a colorblind photographer who likes to see colors, but has no idea what he's looking at. I couldn't come close to printing C41 on RA4 and not have it look like some alien universe.

[Drew Wiley]

Not all chromes make good black white images by any means, at least by typical LF printing standards. Casual web examples allow for almost any misdemeanor imaginable. The ideal respective contrast ranges are quite a bit different. I printed quite a few last year which were generated by emulsion to emulsion contact between old chrome 8x10 originals and 8x10 black and white film internegs using my punch and register frames (mostly onto TMax100, though I've used FP4 in the past), or else by enlarging 4x5 chromes onto 8x10 TMax black and white film using a special pin-registered vacuum holder on the easel. Contrast filtration is a somewhat different game than in working directly with natural light. It's a fair amount of fussy dust-free work and expense, but in my opinion, renders richer tonality than doing it via scanning, though that is fairly common to do these days.

So frankly, I wouldn't call any chrome method of obtaining black and white images the best of EITHER world. I did it because I simply didn't shoot anything black and white my first ten years of LF photography, and many of those shots were in remote places I'll never get to again, and that don't even look the same anymore, largely due to loss of glaciers. Anyway, by being VERY selective about which specific chromes I chose, I did get some exceptional prints, which have a distinct look conspicuously different from what I would have gotten if I had taken the same shot directly using black and white film in the first place. A fun project, regardless.

[Bernice Loui]

Re-post from previous incorrect discussion.

Another often less considered with sheet film, film holders and their condition. Often "penny wise_pound foolish" to economize on film holders as iffy ones can ruin far more than just one of your days. They are often the source of image problems from fuzzy areas of the image to remarkable abstract light images on film. So..

~Vacuum to get ALL dust/dirt out of the film holders to be used including the dark slide area which is often a dirt and dust magnet that lets go at the most unexpected moments.

~If the flap tape goes limp and no longer able to stay put, replace it with black book binder tape.

~Make sure the dark slides are in good shape and clean. If there is a small crack in the dark slide, or lose dark slide handles (on older style film holders) it can produce frustrating problems.

~Make sure the film area inside the film holder is smooth and not abrasive. This is a common source of scratched film that happens during film loading and unloading.

~Test all holders for light leaks. Do not use light leaky film holders or fix and verify
No light leaks before using the film holder.

~Store the film holders in a open ended plastic baggie. This is to prevent dust and dirt from getting mixed up with the film holder. Film holders in a sealed baggie is asking for problems like condensation.

~Don't beat up the film holders by slamming them into the camera, this can cause signifiant shifts in camera settings, excessive wear on the film holder and more. One of the thoughtful features of the Sinar 5x7 (specially mid production Norma and later) there is a ground glass lifter that raises the entire ground glass off the film holder seating area allowing great ease with film holder ingress-egress with the camera. After a whole lotta film in then out of the Sinar, there is nil wear on all the 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders. Think Arca Swiss also had a similar to identical feature.

~Adhesive film holders can go a significant ways to aid in film flatness, This becomes REALLY significant as the sheet film sizes goes up mixed with camera position. Film flatness is one of the image quality challenges of sheet film in general.


Bernice

[Alan Klein]

Not all chromes make good black white images by any means, at least by typical LF printing standards. Casual web examples allow for almost any misdemeanor imaginable. The ideal respective contrast ranges are quite a bit different. I printed quite a few last year which were generated by emulsion to emulsion contact between old chrome 8x10 originals and 8x10 black and white film internegs using my punch and register frames (mostly onto TMax100, though I've used FP4 in the past), or else by enlarging 4x5 chromes onto 8x10 TMax black and white film using a special pin-registered vacuum holder on the easel. Contrast filtration is a somewhat different game than in working directly with natural light. It's a fair amount of fussy dust-free work and expense, but in my opinion, renders richer tonality than doing it via scanning, though that is fairly common to do these days.

So frankly, I wouldn't call any chrome method of obtaining black and white images the best of EITHER world. I did it because I simply didn't shoot anything black and white my first ten years of LF photography, and many of those shots were in remote places I'll never get to again, and that don't even look the same anymore, largely due to loss of glaciers. Anyway, by being VERY selective about which specific chromes I chose, I did get some exceptional prints, which have a distinct look conspicuously different from what I would have gotten if I had taken the same shot directly using black and white film in the first place. A fun project, regardless.

I don't print for now. I use color film and do transfer to BW. I get the point about range, stops, curves, etc. Chrome especially don't have the same range as negative BW. However, you can adjust each color range in post editing to create a lot of lighting range for each color set in Lightroom and other apps. That's got to count for something.

[Vaughn]

Excellent, Bernice. I would add that I use/have used pink anti-static (ziplock and open-end) bags for most my holders. The open-end bags were bubble-bags, also. Static build-up is usually not a problem in the damp air of the coast, but I do travel to drier cooler climes, and the bags do not seem to attract dust during use.
I had a nice ice chest that the 8x10 holders fit perfectly into for traveling...extra dust protection and mellowed out the temperature changes (opened at night in the desert).

Another topic would be changing film and storing exposed film during long trips. I try to simplify this by taking enough holders not to need re-loading. The other extreme was a 6-month trip with the 4x5 on a bicycle, etc. My exposed film was bouncing/shifting around in a film box for months on the bike on rough roads in wet weather -- I had never heard of high-humidity static discharges before. Lost a few negatives to it. Always challenges!

[Havoc]

Re-post from previous incorrect discussion.

Another often less considered with sheet film, film holders and their condition. Often "penny wise_pound foolish" to economize on film holders as iffy ones can ruin far more than just one of your days. They are often the source of image problems from fuzzy areas of the image to remarkable abstract light images on film. So..

~Vacuum to get ALL dust/dirt out of the film holders to be used including the dark slide area which is often a dirt and dust magnet that lets go at the most unexpected moments.

~If the flap tape goes limp and no longer able to stay put, replace it with black book binder tape.

~Make sure the dark slides are in good shape and clean. If there is a small crack in the dark slide, or lose dark slide handles (on older style film holders) it can produce frustrating problems.

~Make sure the film area inside the film holder is smooth and not abrasive. This is a common source of scratched film that happens during film loading and unloading.

~Test all holders for light leaks. Do not use light leaky film holders or fix and verify
No light leaks before using the film holder.

~Store the film holders in a open ended plastic baggie. This is to prevent dust and dirt from getting mixed up with the film holder. Film holders in a sealed baggie is asking for problems like condensation.

~Don't beat up the film holders by slamming them into the camera, this can cause signifiant shifts in camera settings, excessive wear on the film holder and more. One of the thoughtful features of the Sinar 5x7 (specially mid production Norma and later) there is a ground glass lifter that raises the entire ground glass off the film holder seating area allowing great ease with film holder ingress-egress with the camera. After a whole lotta film in then out of the Sinar, there is nil wear on all the 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders. Think Arca Swiss also had a similar to identical feature.

~Adhesive film holders can go a significant ways to aid in film flatness, This becomes REALLY significant as the sheet film sizes goes up mixed with camera position. Film flatness is one of the image quality challenges of sheet film in general.


Bernice

Just 2 questions about this:
- do you store the film holders with the darkslides in? I sometimes think it might be better for the velvet that the dark slide is out. But I never seen/read this so does it matter?
- those adhesive film holder, any info about that? Is that commercial or diy? If diy then what adhesive is used?

[Doremus Scudder]

Just 2 questions about this:
- do you store the film holders with the darkslides in? I sometimes think it might be better for the velvet that the dark slide is out. But I never seen/read this so does it matter? ...

There was a thread about this here (or over on Photrio) relatively recently. The consensus was to store holders with the dark slides in. This makes a lot of sense considering that a) people don't seem to have problems with light leaks when storing holders this way and b) different brand and even different holder runs in the same brand have dark slides of slightly different sizes. They don't get mixed up easily when stored in their respective holders.

FWIW, I store all my holders with the slides in and have never had a light-leak problem I could trace to the storage.

Best,

Doremus

[Alan Klein]

There was a thread about this here (or over on Photrio) relatively recently. The consensus was to store holders with the dark slides in. This makes a lot of sense considering that a) people don't seem to have problems with light leaks when storing holders this way and b) different brand and even different holder runs in the same brand have dark slides of slightly different sizes. They don't get mixed up easily when stored in their respective holders.

FWIW, I store all my holders with the slides in and have never had a light-leak problem I could trace to the storage.

Best,

Doremus

Dark slides keep the flaps from flapping and the insides cleaner from dust.

[Bernice Loui]

Dark slides stored with holders for about three decades, never had a problem. What can be a problem if the dark slides are disconnected from their matching film holders, trying to sort out which dark slides fit a specific film holder. No fun at all.

Typically stored in a non-sealed plastic baggie 3 to 6 holders per baggie to keep dust and stuff of the film holders.

Sinar made adhesive film holders at some point in the past. Linhof and others made vacuum film holders at some point.
Often not appreciated is the problem of film flatness in film holder AND accuracy-precision of registration from the ground glass to film surface in film holder. Yes, stopping down to lens apertures of f22 and MUCH smaller does/can make up for some of these camera/film holder problems except this is the the way to extract the absolute best possible performance out of the optics and all related.

Adhesive film holders have been discussed lots on LFF in the past, do a search on that topic.


~Simply does not believe enforcing the smallest possible lens aperture is the "in focus" cure-all,
Bernice




Just 2 questions about this:
- do you store the film holders with the darkslides in? I sometimes think it might be better for the velvet that the dark slide is out. But I never seen/read this so does it matter?
- those adhesive film holder, any info about that? Is that commercial or diy? If diy then what adhesive is used?

[Alan Klein]

Dark slides stored with holders for about three decades, never had a problem. What can be a problem if the dark slides are disconnected from their matching film holders, trying to sort out which dark slides fit a specific film holder. No fun at all.

Typically stored in a non-sealed plastic baggie 3 to 6 holders per baggie to keep dust and stuff of the film holders.

Sinar made adhesive film holders at some point in the past. Linhof and others made vacuum film holders at some point.
Often not appreciated is the problem of film flatness in film holder AND accuracy-precision of registration from the ground glass to film surface in film holder. Yes, stopping down to lens apertures of f22 and MUCH smaller does/can make up for some of these camera/film holder problems except this is the the way to extract the absolute best possible performance out of the optics and all related.

Adhesive film holders have been discussed lots on LFF in the past, do a search on that topic.


~Simply does not believe enforcing the smallest possible lens aperture is the "in focus" cure-all,
Bernice

How do you prove focus point registration is accurate?

[Bernice Loui]

Measured using precision measuring tools and methods. Previously discussed:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158697-Critical-height-placement-of-ground-glass/page2

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?150994-Standard-distances-for-film-holders/page2


This is one of the realities of why properly designed and produced metal view camera has much better odds of holding accuracy/precision needed for precise/accurate/consistent placement of the ground glass_image to film in film holder compared to wood cameras. All back to what the image goals are, what lenses-optics are required to achieve this which determines requirements for the camera to properly support these needs.


Bernice



How do you prove focus point registration is accurate?

[Alan Klein]

I have a Chamonix 45H-1 with their wooden 4x5 holders. The camera comes with a fresnel lens. Has anyone ever checked out this camera or another Chamonix to see how accurately they focus?

[Bernice Loui]

Best to test your specific camera as there will be production variations of tolerance and more involved. Test of other cameras are an estimate at best. Majority of high quality view cameras are not an issue. If this was never a problem before, the odds of it being a problem now could be perceived not real.


Bernice




I have a Chamonix 45H-1 with their wooden 4x5 holders. The camera comes with a fresnel lens. Has anyone ever checked out this camera or another Chamonix to see how accurately they focus?

[Eric Woodbury]

All my Deardorffs, 3 of them, needed the ground glass repositioned. I did it by measurement, but photograph a ruler with small f/# works too.