Film and winter temperature swings going on location

[Mudrunner]

I am taking my 4x5 into the great outdoors and particularly the Canadian winter. I am familiar with using my 35mm and 120, but I wondered if there are any particular considerations with LF film. I expect a typical day would be getting from my home into a heated car, then out into the location....sometimes the shots might be car-side, sometimes several hours by ski. There will be some overnight excursions, but the temperature fluctuations are relatively slow.

My background with LF was in the studio (many moons ago). We were meticulous with film and that included checking emulsion batches for colour correction and getting film out of the fridge and down to room temperature the night before a shoot. Should I be concerned with the ability of the film to adapt? Should I actually leave it in the freezer until I go out to shoot? Does the size of the film create an exponential concern that is not present in 35mm?

[domaz]

The greatest concern is probably getting condensation on your film holders. Keep them in a plastic bag and don't open them going from a hot cold to very cold air. Probably an even greater concern with LF is shutters, older ones tend to act completely differently in cold weather than do at room temperature. That is they start working very slowly or hanging up, it can be pretty frustrating so test any shutters by putting them in a plastic bag in the freezer for a bit and operating them through the bag.

[Alan9940]

As domaz said, condensation and slowing shutters are probably your biggest concerns. I haven't worked in extreme cold for over 20 years, but back when I did I kept everything in the trunk of my car while out and about; theory here was that all the equipment and film holders would normalize to the colder conditions, thereby eliminating (or, at least, minimizing) the risk of condensation. Nothing much you can do about the shutters slowing down. I used to fire the shutter several times before the actual exposure and, through experience, I knew how much to close down the aperture to compensate for the slower shutter speed. My old Ilex shutters seemed to be more prone to the cold than the newer Copal shutters, though all were affected to some degree. Another issue that you may not have considered is your hands! LF cameras generally require the availability of nimble fingers to work the controls. When it wasn't too cold, I used the style of gloves that leaves your fingertips exposed. When it was near or below zero, I used the type of glove that folded over your fingers. When you needed your hands, fold back the top part and it attached via velcro to the back of your hand. Might also use a large over-glove, too, in the bitter cold.

Good luck! I loved shooting LF in the winter. Actually, it was my favorite season to make photographs.

[rjbuzzclick]

When you pull your darkslides out, do it slowly. Plastic film holders can build up a small static charge in dry air that can generate little sparks if you pull the slides out too quickly that can leave marks on your film. Wooden holders mitigate this.

[Mudrunner]

When you pull your darkslides out, do it slowly. Plastic film holders can build up a small static charge in dry air that can generate little sparks if you pull the slides out too quickly that can leave marks on your film. Wooden holders mitigate this.

Ah yes...static...a very good point.

[Richard Wasserman]

You don't want to breathe on the groundglass, it'll fog right up. I've photographed in -20º F weather and it was great fun, the light can be wonderful.

[Mudrunner]

As domaz said, condensation and slowing shutters are probably your biggest concerns. I haven't worked in extreme cold for over 20 years, but back when I did I kept everything in the trunk of my car while out and about; theory here was that all the equipment and film holders would normalize to the colder conditions, thereby eliminating (or, at least, minimizing) the risk of condensation. Nothing much you can do about the shutters slowing down. I used to fire the shutter several times before the actual exposure and, through experience, I knew how much to close down the aperture to compensate for the slower shutter speed. My old Ilex shutters seemed to be more prone to the cold than the newer Copal shutters, though all were affected to some degree. Another issue that you may not have considered is your hands! LF cameras generally require the availability of nimble fingers to work the controls. When it wasn't too cold, I used the style of gloves that leaves your fingertips exposed. When it was near or below zero, I used the type of glove that folded over your fingers. When you needed your hands, fold back the top part and it attached via velcro to the back of your hand. Might also use a large over-glove, too, in the bitter cold.

Good luck! I loved shooting LF in the winter. Actually, it was my favorite season to make photographs.

Yes...I suspect I'll be firing the shutter a few times to get it ready...and I'll need to experiment to see where speeds go to. When you mention extreme temperatures, at what point is that a concern? 15f? -5f? -15f?
AS far as fingers go...good point..especially since the Toyo is a metal brick, it'll conduct the cold quite quickly. I'm a former alpinist/climber, so working with my hands in the cold is familiar. I use a snug liner glove under my mittens and place a heat pad inside the mitten for instant relief (a cold hand in a cold mitt, just stays cold).

[Mudrunner]

The greatest concern is probably getting condensation on your film holders. Keep them in a plastic bag and don't open them going from a hot cold to very cold air. Probably an even greater concern with LF is shutters, older ones tend to act completely differently in cold weather than do at room temperature. That is they start working very slowly or hanging up, it can be pretty frustrating so test any shutters by putting them in a plastic bag in the freezer for a bit and operating them through the bag.

Ah yes...and being on the west side of the Rockies, there is ample moisture in the air.

[LabRat]

You don't want to breathe on the groundglass, it'll fog right up. I've photographed in -20º F weather and it was great fun, the light can be wonderful.

Another benefit of the "mask-up" trend, is other uses for masks... Used them while on camera cuts fog on GG or viewfinder... Other uses include not fogging up car windows on cold, wet nights, a little face warmth while cold, hides beard stubble if you miss a shave, and when dusty/windy...

I will keep them in my kit after pandemic passes... ;-)

Steve K

[Alan9940]

When you mention extreme temperatures, at what point is that a concern? 15f? -5f? -15f?


When working LF in the cold, I always considered anything down to zero as simply cold and below zero as extreme cold; especially if any wind is blowing! I once made a landscape image where the ambient temp was about -5F with about a 20mph wind; and that was with my 8x10! Don't know what that equates to vis-a-vis wind chill but suffice it to say that it was DARN cold and my cranky Ilex shutter really didn't like it, either. ;) Bummer that it wasn't a portfolio image.

[Drew Wiley]

You can get anti-static pinkish ziplok bags from sources like U-line. But static is more an issue in Desert winter or windy March. Film holders and especially plastic darkslides should be treated in advance with anti-static spray. It lasts for years if done right. Metal cameras in static-prone conditions can be grounded if necessary. I'd just bring along a length of speaker wire with a small metal alligator clip on one end and an iron nail at the other end.

I always keep holder in individual thin poly wastebasket liners if 8x10, or in a tight poly box if 4x5. Despite all the terrible weather I've been in over the past decades, I can recall only one instance when condensation formed on the film itself. But mainly camping outdoors, the backpack, film, and camera gear is constantly acclimated to the ambient temperature anyway. Hauling it out of a heated cabin, motel, or RV, and suddenly needing to shoot it, is likely to be a different story.

Logistically, if you value the skin on your fingers, or even the fiber of woolen gloves, etc, you'll avoid metal tripods in extreme cold. CF or hardwood make a lot more sense. But when snow is present, there is simply no substitute for sheer bully mass, like a big wooden Ries, fitted with snow baskets on the feet if necessary in powder snow conditions. I really preferred snowshoes over skis to stomp down or compact snow into a suitable shooting platform, as well as to maneuver close up to rocks and so forth.

[Willie]

You don't want to breathe on the groundglass, it'll fog right up. I've photographed in -20º F weather and it was great fun, the light can be wonderful.

A divers snorkel works well for this. You breathe through it and the breath goes up and outside your dark cloth.

Also, be careful with cloth that is Static prone. Polyester is one material that can give major problems this way. Dark cloth & clothing bot can cause problems if they are made from it. An "anti static spray" can be used on the outside of a camera case at times, if needed.

[Mudrunner]

A divers snorkel works well for this. You breathe through it and the breath goes up and outside your dark cloth.

Also, be careful with cloth that is Static prone. Polyester is one material that can give major problems this way. Dark cloth & clothing bot can cause problems if they are made from it. An "anti static spray" can be used on the outside of a camera case at times, if needed.

The diver's snorkel? Brilliantly crazy, but not something that I can't adapt. I have an Avalung system I use to use for back country skiing. I could simply use that without adding or adapting anything extra.
https://www.rei.com/product/705146/black-diamond-avalung-ii

[Mudrunner]

Great advice Drew Wiley....I do use a carbon tripod. Weight is an issue as I tend to go far and carry winter camping gear as well as the camera components.
For stomping out a platform, I start with the skis, then my boots...I let the snow settle for about 10-15 minutes and it makes for a solid base. The nice thing with snow is that it's a great building material. I've built elevated areas for my pack (so I don't have to reach down to get gear), and trenches (or walls) so I can hunker out of the wind while I wait.

[Alan Klein]

I've cut and used polyfoam piping insulation for my cold metal clad tripod. Cut a short piece just for the top section. Tape it close with duct tape.

[maltfalc]

The greatest concern is probably getting condensation on your film holders. Keep them in a plastic bag and don't open them going from a hot cold to very cold air. that's the opposite of what you should do. going from hot to cold, you need to minimize the amount of warm, moist air trapped in your gear or the moisture will condense out as the trapped air cools down. when going from cold to hot, keep all your gear sealed away until it warms up or it'll cool the warm air touching it and cause condensation. some desiccant packs in your bags and cases to minimize moisture before going out in the cold couldn't hurt either.

[otto.f]

The greatest concern is probably getting condensation on your film holders. Keep them in a plastic bag and don't open them going from a hot cold to very cold air. Probably an even greater concern with LF is shutters, older ones tend to act completely differently in cold weather than do at room temperature. That is they start working very slowly or hanging up, it can be pretty frustrating so test any shutters by putting them in a plastic bag in the freezer for a bit and operating them through the bag.

When keeping in a plastic bag, I’d use silica gel. But I would prefer winding them in the cotton of my dark cloth

[otto.f]

that's the opposite of what you should do. going from hot to cold, you need to minimize the amount of warm, moist air trapped in your gear or the moisture will condense out as the trapped air cools down. when going from cold to hot, keep all your gear sealed away until it warms up or it'll cool the warm air touching it and cause condensation. some desiccant packs in your bags and cases to minimize moisture before going out in the cold couldn't hurt either.
Agree

[r.e.]

Ah yes...and being on the west side of the Rockies, there is ample moisture in the air.

Coincidentally, there's a guy on the east side of the Rockies who has a thread going on the Photrio large format sub-forum about the same issue: Working in the Cold (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/working-in-the-cold.188931/)

Being on the east side, and leaving aside chinooks*, he at least has an excuse for bemoaning winter cold. You have my sympathies if you're up around Fort St. John, but otherwise that "ample moisture in the air" is mostly rain, right? :)

* Alberta name for a föehn wind.

[Mudrunner]

Coincidentally, there's a guy on the east side of the Rockies who has a thread going on the Photrio large format sub-forum about the same issue: Working in the Cold (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/working-in-the-cold.188931/)

Being on the east side, and leaving aside chinooks*, he at least has an excuse for bemoaning winter cold. You have my sympathies if you're up around Fort St. John, but otherwise that "ample moisture in the air" is mostly rain, right? :)

* Alberta name for a föehn wind.

Ha, yes! Nice! I'll head over there for a read!
Also...yes, most moisture is rain in the low elevations, but higher up, it's the white stuff and the cold. ...even the Coast Mountains (not the Vancouver area...but more inland and north) get -20c and moisture. Fairly dry/cold in the Selkirks, and Purcells, but the Kootenays have their moist/cold days In fact, there was one night(coming out of the bar...) it was so cold/moist (-30c?) when we put a loonie in the Kimberly cuckoo clock, and upon his exit from the top of the clock door, Happy Hans froze in his leiderhosen ...he kept yodelling for hours. :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V812SqQZCFY

[Drew Wiley]

otto - Winding holders into a cotton darkcloth ??? = lint risk !!! Or do you mean just using that to wrap the overall bundle, with the holders still in their own plastic bags? I wrap my bagged or poly-boxed film holders in my goosedown jacket, inside the pack (a coat not worn when I'm actually hiking, but only in camp - I have other less impeding outerwear for on the trail).

But now that the nature of the problem has been hinted at, there is snow, versus snow, versus snow. And often very cold powder snow is a lot easier to deal with than soggy Spring snow, in terms of moisture and condensation risk, whether we're talking about camera gear or tents and parkas.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

The main problem I had photographing the Grand Canyon in winter with snow was condensation on the lens. I am looking at a small dew heater to wrap around the lens in these situation powered by a 9-volt battery. I had take sever pictures before I realized the lens had a nice coating of frost on it. Super thin so I hope it acted like a soft diffuser. Won't know till I develop the film. Gonna be a while :(

[Fred L]

those chemical hand warmer packs are very useful for keeping dew off lenses. keep a couple of rubber bands on hand to secure the warmers to the lens etc.. I've never worried about dew points in the winter and lenses fogging up. condensation going from cold -> warm will be the thing to keep an eye on

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I like the hand warmer idea too

[John Layton]

Ha! Boy did I learn a hard lesson all those years ago. I was a junior in high school, and had an after school gig as a stringer for a local newspaper. This particular assignment was to photograph a mid-winter indoor swim meet. What could go wrong? It was not only mid winter - but a sub zero day, and a beautiful and snowy one at that, which inspired me to take a few outdoor snaps on the 15 minute walk from my high school to the sports arena where the pool was located. Need I say more?